AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[dekay]

40 minutes ago, XReN said:

I'd probably give him "Strike Eagles" instead for even more ranged mortals

Reasonable, I might have enough CP as is ; )

 

10 minutes ago, Sputnik said:

I love the Gotrek model and want him in any CoS army I collect. Does there seem to be any particular city specific rules which would benefit him?

As mentioned, Gotrek doesn't benefit from any city rules *specifically*. However, I think Hallowheart might be the best fit due to their spellcasting bonuses. Cities have spells that can both increase Gotrek's movement and heal him, so increasing your wizards' reliability might be the best synergy Gotrek can have with Cities.

Wildform, Chronomantic Cogs, Lifeswarm, Sear Wounds, Warding Brand - all useful for making Gotrek faster and functionally immortal.

[stus67]

Gotrek is a great model but I think he's a bit of a trap option

[swarmofseals]

 

6 hours ago, Dracan said:

Some very informative maths there.

Could you please add corsairs with handbows

Done

6 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

@swarmofseals will you also make a melee list? =}

Yes, it will just take me a lot longer as there are many more warscrolls to look at.

[spenson]

4 minutes ago, stus67 said:

Gotrek is a great model but I think he's a bit of a trap option

He totally is. He destroys any big model but he's very slow and quite a few armies can kill him in a single turn.

Edited September 30, 2019 by spenson

[Frowny]

OK. Here Goes. Big List of 

Just as with the previous poster, I wanted to figure out what to use for what roll so I did some math.

Everything is expressed in wounds per point on a 4+ save. For my own convenience, I ignored unit champions, but that shouldn't affect things too much on full squads. All units are charging, and get all models in. Note that this way of calculating also punishes expensive units. 

For comparison, here are some other common units on the charge:

So, in general, 0.5-0.6 is a relatively killy unit, 0.02 is standard burly chaff.

Heavy Cavalry:

Comments:

Drakespawn Knights are garbage. even with +1/1 they are still worse than many other options even with buffs.

I think pistoliers  are misunderstand. Given that they can shoot, then shoot again, then charge, they have 7 attacks right before charging. They fill a roll more like shock cavalry than skirmisher cavalry. With their relatively low hit and wound, they carry buffs extremely well, and outperform most heavier cav, even with no buffs.

Good to see demigryph knights and buffed wild-riders able to play up their with the big boys. 

Dark riders do poorly here, but I think they may have other uses. They are the fastest on this list, and with their 4+ save. they also are one of the sturdiest. They also have ranged attacks. I just wish their warscroll had something unique to make me excited about them instead of just all around ok stats. I wish they gained the reavers move after shooting ability

 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Frowny
spelling

[zilberfrid]

Thanks!

Pistoleers look really good here. I am going to enjoy using them.

Dark Riders do not look good here (or as missile cav), but they do have longer range for menacing fire, a higher save and a fear aura, I think mixing in two units will work out rather nicely, but that's still theory. They would really like to hit buffs, as their wound isn't the worst.

You left out the champions, but that may be important in the low model count units of cav. Not sure though whether this changes things between these units.

My theory is that Cold one Knights has an error in the warscroll, they should have two lance attacks, though I don't know if that is enough to warrant all those points. Even at save 3+.

[Frowny]

Chaff Infantry

Note that here, I included the unit size buffs and the 'near leader' buffs, since these are likely always in play.

Standard in the range of chaff. Here, I included the unit size buffs already since as chaff, they will likely already be getting them. Note that this actually makes them poor carriers of buffs, since most of them are already hitting on 2's just with the unit size buffs and the very easy-to-trigger proximity to hero buffs.

Longbeards stand out as especially poor damage output, but as you will see later, they are among the sturdiest to to rend - attacks per point, and the grumbling has other uses for buffing other units. I think for pure defensive roles their sturdiness and grumbling make them superior to several of these options for other reasons. 

All units here seem to have some roles. Bleakswords and dreadspears can be eaten by sorceresses, although darkshards are likely more useful there. 

Interesting to see that halberds are pretty solid if you want melee guard

 

Heavy Infantry

Note that buffers for everything cost points, which I did not include. In a lot of situations it may be better to just buy more models. Standout-buffers are the Rune lord for +1 attack, which pays for itself if he can use it even on only 20 models. 

Of the killy infantry, Hammerers stand out as being the killiest. They are the only heavy damage infantry that can get the 3rd attack. I didn't include them with full buffs since they are so far ahead of the other options that it makes the colors not as helpful. I think they were ~1.3, twice as killy per point as evocators. 

Executioners are worse than both greatswords and hammerers, since their attack sequence stops with the mortal wound.

Greatswords are the best without buffs, but carry buffs poorly since they already hit on 2's. 

Wildwood rangers are amazing vs monsters and should be used as such. They are below average against infantry and much more fragile than other options due to their price and 5+ save.

Pheonix guard are solidly in line with other options. Their strength is in their defensive stats, though, so they are slightly behind here.

Ironbreakers are interesting. Of these options, they are the 2nd sturdiest, losing out only to Pheonix Guard. And with their 3rd attack they carry buffs quite well, but start off only about as killy as chaff. A middle-road infantry. Time will tell if that is valuable but may lose out to more dedicated hammers and anvils.

[Acid_Nine]

40 minutes ago, Frowny said:

OK. Here Goes. Big List of 

Just as with the previous poster, I wanted to figure out what to use for what roll so I did some math.

Everything is expressed in wounds per point on a 4+ save. For my own convenience, I ignored unit champions, but that shouldn't affect things too much on full squads. All units are charging, and get all models in. Note that this way of calculating also punishes expensive units. 

For comparison, here are some other common units on the charge:

So, in general, 0.5-0.6 is a relatively killy unit, 0.02 is standard burly chaff.

Heavy Cavalry:

Comments:

Drakespawn Knights are garbage. even with +1/1 they are still worse than many other options even with buffs.

I think pistoliers  are misunderstand. Given that they can shoot, then shoot again, then charge, they have 7 attacks right before charging. They fill a roll more like shock cavalry than skirmisher cavalry. With their relatively low hit and wound, they carry buffs extremely well, and outperform most heavier cav, even with no buffs.

Good to see demigryph knights and buffed wild-riders able to play up their with the big boys. 

Dark riders do poorly here, but I think they may have other uses. They are the fastest on this list, and with their 4+ save. they also are one of the sturdiest. They also have ranged attacks. I just wish their warscroll had something unique to make me excited about them instead of just all around ok stats. I wish they gained the reavers move after shooting ability

 

 

I would like to see how morrsarr guard and ishlean guard perform on this list too, just out of curiosity.

 

Also, I realized something... A stardrake could get the cities of sigmar keyword and basically any awesome relic you want to give him. Like, for hammerhall I could give him the relic for the +1 armor save and he can sit at a re-rolling 2+ save to smash into enemy lines.

[mmimzie]

19 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

I would like to see how morrsarr guard and ishlean guard perform on this list too, just out of curiosity.

 

Also, I realized something... A stardrake could get the cities of sigmar keyword and basically any awesome relic you want to give him. Like, for hammerhall I could give him the relic for the +1 armor save and he can sit at a re-rolling 2+ save to smash into enemy lines.

Morrsar guard on the charge are at .0461862, with lightning .05795098 . 

Ishlaen are at .03492063

remind morrsarr guard are good because of speed, burst damage from the mortal wound thing, and they have a low surface area to points ratio which lets you get more of your points into combat at once. 

For instance a 6 man morrsarr guard unit (as you know) will likely always get to fight with all 6 models against most targets. A Demigryph knight you will likely just get 4 and maybe squeeze in 5 models into combat. Just due to base size difference, and even more so when you take into account speed. 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by mmimzie

[Undeadly]

26 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Chaff Infantry

Note that here, I included the unit size buffs and the 'near leader' buffs, since these are likely always in play.

Standard in the range of chaff. Here, I included the unit size buffs already since as chaff, they will likely already be getting them. Note that this actually makes them poor carriers of buffs, since most of them are already hitting on 2's just with the unit size buffs and the very easy-to-trigger proximity to hero buffs.

Longbeards stand out as especially poor damage output, but as you will see later, they are among the sturdiest to to rend - attacks per point, and the grumbling has other uses for buffing other units. I think for pure defensive roles their sturdiness and grumbling make them superior to several of these options for other reasons. 

All units here seem to have some roles. Bleakswords and dreadspears can be eaten by sorceresses, although darkshards are likely more useful there. 

Interesting to see that halberds are pretty solid if you want melee guard

 

Heavy Infantry

Note that buffers for everything cost points, which I did not include. In a lot of situations it may be better to just buy more models. Standout-buffers are the Rune lord for +1 attack, which pays for itself if he can use it even on only 20 models. 

Of the killy infantry, Hammerers stand out as being the killiest. They are the only heavy damage infantry that can get the 3rd attack. I didn't include them with full buffs since they are so far ahead of the other options that it makes the colors not as helpful. I think they were ~1.3, twice as killy per point as evocators. 

Executioners are worse than both greatswords and hammerers, since their attack sequence stops with the mortal wound.

Greatswords are the best without buffs, but carry buffs poorly since they already hit on 2's. 

Wildwood rangers are amazing vs monsters and should be used as such. They are below average against infantry and much more fragile than other options due to their price and 5+ save.

Pheonix guard are solidly in line with other options. Their strength is in their defensive stats, though, so they are slightly behind here.

Ironbreakers are interesting. Of these options, they are the 2nd sturdiest, losing out only to Pheonix Guard. And with their 3rd attack they carry buffs quite well, but start off only about as killy as chaff. A middle-road infantry. Time will tell if that is valuable but may lose out to more dedicated hammers and anvils.

So Black Guard are pretty decent already, and are on the higher end of the spectrum when given that +1 to wound, but loose out when up against Greatswords and Hammerers. Not too shabby.

One thing that helps set them apart from those two is that they have a 2" range, as well as how easy it is to get that +1 to hit. Not to mention that they can get into position faster thanks to the Sorceress' CA that lets them run and charge.

[Duke of Gisoreux]

Here's my Cities of Sigmar army collection. I only used the miniatures as they are supposed to be. This means I didn't use "count as" things like Swordmasters as Executioners or something like that. Doing so would approximately double the army's size. 

Anvilgard, Greywater Fastness, Hammerhal and Phoenicium are about 32000 points. Hallowheart and Tempest's Eye are around 35000 and Living City is at 39000.

3		Freeguild General on Griffon
2		Freeguild General
1		Steam Tank with Commander
1		Battlemage on Griffon
24		Battlemage
1		Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage
1		Luminark of Hysh with White Battlemage
3		Dreadlord on Black Dragon
2		Anointed
2		Black Ark Fleetmaster
9		Assassin
1		Nomad Prince
8		Sorceress
14		Warden King
3		Runelord
5		Cogsmith
11		Demigryph Knights
26		Freeguild Handgunners
10		Freeguild Pistoliers
10		Freeguild Outriders
110		Freeguild Guard
40		Flagellants
2		Helblaster Volley Gun
1		Helstorm Rocket Battery
117		Dreadspears
21		Bleakswords
101		Darkshards
40		Black Guard
45		Executioners
35		Drakespawn Knights
2		Drakespawn Chariots
2		War Hydra
33		Phoenix Guard
2		Flamespyre Phoenix
1		Frostheart Phoenix
66		Black Ark Corsairs
1		Kharibdyss
25		Dark Riders
10		Shadow Warriors
29		Sisters of the Watch
60		Eternal Guard
40		Wildwood Rangers
11		Wild Riders
5		Sisters of the Thorn
20		Longbeards
10		Hammerers
30		Ironbreakers
10		Irondrakes
2		Gyrocopters
1		Gyrobombers
1		Celestant-Prime, Hammer of Sigmar
1		Vandus Hammerhand
1		Aventis Firestrike, Magister of Hammerhal
1		Averon Stormsire
1		Gavriel Sureheart
1		Neave Blacktalon
1		Lord-Celestant on Dracoth
1		Lord-Celestant
2		Lord-Relictor
1		Lord-Castellant
1		Lord-Veritant
1		Lord-Aquilor on Gryph Charger
1		Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon
1		Lord-Arcanum on Gryph Charger
1		Lord-Exorcist
1		Lord-Ordinator
2		Knight-Incantor
1		Knight-Questor
1		Errant-Questor
1		Knight-Heraldor
1		Knight-Vexillor
1		Knight-Azyros
1		Knight-Venator
25		Liberators
5		Judicators
12		Retributors
5		Decimators
9		Prosecutors
7		Evocators
3		Evocators on Celestial Dracolines
6		Castigators
10		Sequitors
3		Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows
3		Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows
3		Vanguard-Palladors
2		Fulminators
1		Celestar-Ballista
18		Gryph Hounds
6		Aetherwings
2		Stormsire's Cursebreakers
3		Steelheart's Champions
3		The Farstriders
1		Alarielle the Everqueen
1		Drycha Hamadreth
1		Ylthari
1		Spirit of Durthu
5		Treelord Ancient
3		Ylthari's Guardians
1		Arch-Revenant
2		Branchwraith
4		Branchwych
126		Dryads
10		Spite-Revenants
5		Tree-Revenants
3		Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatswords
3		Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatbows
3		Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes
5		Treelord
1		Brokk Grungsson
1		Bjorgen Thundrik
2		Arkanaut Admiral
1		Aetheric Navigator
1		Aether-Khemist
1		Endrinmaster
50		Arkanaut Company
3		Skywardens
3		Endrinriggers
5		Grundstok Thunderers
1		Grundstok Gunhauler
2		Arkanaut Frigate
1		Arkanaut Ironclad
4		Thundrik's Profiteers
1		Aetherguard Windrunners
0		Charrwind Beasthunters
1		Greywater Artillery Company
1		Hammerhalian Lancers
1		Phoenix Flight
1		Viridian Pathfinders
20		Whitefire Retinue

[mmimzie]

11 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

So Black Guard are pretty decent already, and are on the higher end of the spectrum when given that +1 to wound, but loose out when up against Greatswords and Hammerers. Not too shabby.

One thing that helps set them apart from those two is that they have a 2" range, as well as how easy it is to get that +1 to hit. Not to mention that they can get into position faster thanks to the Sorceress' CA that lets them run and charge.

Not only does 2" range set them appart it makes them just plain better from a pure math point of veiw as it's basicly +50% damage when compared to units like great swords/hammers. 

If you think of the units fighting in 10 man ranks, your going from 20 attack to 30 with that 2" range. Than as you say the ability to throw CP into these guys to make em faster make them about as speedy as morrsarr guard. They have a natural +1 to run/charge and you can cast wildform on them to give them another +2. WIth a auto run 6 CP these models can move 15" and have a +3 charge roll. 

In hollow heart you can give them +1 to wound and bring burning head to provide reroll 1s to hit. They also get really nice milage off of emerald life swarm, since they are so pricey per wound 1 cast pays for the empowered swarm. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by mmimzie

[smartazjb0y]

4 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Here's my Cities of Sigmar army collection. I only used the miniatures as they are supposed to be. This means I didn't use "count as" things like Swordmasters as Executioners or something like that. Doing so would approximately double the army's size. 

Anvilgard, Greywater Fastness, Hammerhal and Phoenicium are about 32000 points. Hallowheart and Tempest's Eye are around 35000 and Living City is at 39000.

Wow you already have all that built and painted? 39k points worth of stuff is mind-boggling haha 

[Duke of Gisoreux]

1 minute ago, smartazjb0y said:

Wow you already have all that built and painted? 39k points worth of stuff is mind-boggling haha 

Almost everything is painted. Total model count is 1474 of which 19 are unpainted.

[smartazjb0y]

Just now, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Almost everything is painted. Total model count is 1474 of which 19 are unpainted.

Hot damn that's amazing, just spent like 90 minutes this past weekend assembling a Khorne Skullcrusher model so I'm very much on the other end of the spectrum, I can't imagine how long it'd take me to assemble and paint that many models. 

[zilberfrid]

Frowny, I absolutely love this, thank you!

I was a bit surprised at the damage output of the halbardeers, that's quite a lot!

It seems I must make a 40 block of both swordsmen and halbardeers now.

Edited September 30, 2019 by zilberfrid

[stratigo]

3 hours ago, dekay said:

Arkanauts hit extremely hard, but the role seems to be  different , They're limited, first of all - you need at least 6 other units to take both company and khemist. And let's hope that it won't get FAQ'd that Kharadron and Stormcasts count for the same 1-4 limit as some people claim.

Buffed skyhooks can reach basically everything and murderize the hell of any hero/monster they see, but as both company and khemist are more expensive than darkshards and sorceress, respectively, I count them as more of an elite option.

Darklings you can basically spam, it's just the matter of how many you can squeeze under the aura. And the answer is 'a lot' ; )

Plus, well, you need 6 City units to take Arkanauts + Khemist anyway. Apart from obligatory Hurricanum, 2 of those might as well be Darkshards and Sorceress ; )

I agree. Although, strictly, company puts out more damage. Darkshards are a solid group to use as battleline shooting. If I had them, I'd try them out, but I can't push myself to proxy quarellors as darkshards like I can for crossbows. XD. Course, also, company isn't particularly elite either. Just good shooting

Edited September 30, 2019 by stratigo

[WatcherintheWater]

Do we know if Arkanauts count as battleline in Tempest's Eye? I'm guessing so...

[dekay]

2 minutes ago, WatcherintheWater said:

Do we know if Arkanauts count as battleline in Tempest's Eye? I'm guessing so...

They are a generic Order battleline, they get Tempest's Eye keyword, there's no reason why they wouldn't, really.

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

I agree. Although, strictly, company puts out more damage. Darkshards are a solid group to use as battleline shooting. If I had them, I'd try them out, but I can't push myself to proxy quarellors as darkshards like I can for crossbows. XD. Course, also, company isn't particularly elite either. Just good shooting

Stictly speaking this isn't true

Company with a unit of 40 with sky hooks getting thier bonus against a monster with a 4+ save: (only showing sky hook damage here)
.029 wound/pts (this include khemist cost)

Darkshard with no help against the same thing:
.033 wound/pts

That said likely you might bring a sorc, but the sorc will most likely be more for black guard, and any help to dark shards would be a secondary effect. 

Darkshards can easily be a staple unit that you bring a big squad and hit with +1/+1 and give reroll hits and wounds if you want it to be a back bone to your army. Or a battle line where you bring 10/10/20 using the 20 to buff up with +1 to wound  so that you can snipe characters early in the game, and the other 10 as a screen that can also do decent damage. 

Darkshards are no joke. 
 

Edited September 30, 2019 by mmimzie

[Arkhanist]

1 hour ago, Frowny said:

Note that buffers for everything cost points, which I did not include. In a lot of situations it may be better to just buy more models. Standout-buffers are the Rune lord for +1 attack, which pays for itself if he can use it even on only 20 models. 

Of the killy infantry, Hammerers stand out as being the killiest. They are the only heavy damage infantry that can get the 3rd attack. I didn't include them with full buffs since they are so far ahead of the other options that it makes the colors not as helpful. I think they were ~1.3, twice as killy per point as evocators. 

I presume you mean the warden king for the +1A command ability Ancestral Grudge (all friendly dispossessed get +1 melee attacks against a nominated enemy unit within 18" of the king). Runelords grant -1 rend on a 2+ to a friendly dispossessed unit wholly within 12".

I presume you meant the extra mortal wounds for hammerers? Or when referring to the 3rd attack, do you mean the +1A from the king, because both hammerers and ironbreakers have 2A base so 3A against 1 unit with king command, which you do refer to at the end?

Longbeards do look garbage damage wise for their points so glad the mathhammer endorses that, but I'm curious if you used their 3+/3+/-1/1 great axe which does seem better than the axe+shield? I agree their main value looks to be in their re-roll 1s  to wound aura to buff hammerers or irondrakes though.

Glad hammerers are even smashier than we suspected!

 

[Bladedwind]

I'm seeing a lot of Mathhammer here so I figured I would ask. What do you guys think of the new Dispossessed war scrolls? There are some pros an cons I feel. For example, everyone lost the shield wall that allows rerolls on failed saves, but that means shield units get +1 and we can now run without having to worry that much.

Biggest issue for me is Ironbreakers vs Longbeards now. There's nothing on Ironbreakers that really stand out that make me want to run them compared to what Longbeards can do.

[Arkhanist]

15 minutes ago, Bladedwind said:

I'm seeing a lot of Mathhammer here so I figured I would ask. What do you guys think of the new Dispossessed war scrolls? There are some pros an cons I feel. For example, everyone lost the shield wall that allows rerolls on failed saves, but that means shield units get +1 and we can now run without having to worry that much.

Biggest issue for me is Ironbreakers vs Longbeards now. There's nothing on Ironbreakers that really stand out that make me want to run them compared to what Longbeards can do.

Ironbreakers have 2 attacks base at 3+/4+/- with a 3+ save, longbeards have 1 attack at 3+/3+/-1 with a 4+ save, or 1 attack at 3+/4+/- with a 3+ in melee.

The cost difference is pretty small, so ironbreakers are more survivable and do more damage per point - that 2A and flat 3+ save really helps and also means they benefit more from buffs such as the runesmith. Hammerers are very killy but less robust than ironbreakers.

Longbeard grumbling has its uses though, so take them for that rather than large unit combat or board control where there are better choices.

Both are less resilient than they were before overall (mathhammer for that in the dispossessed topic).

Edited September 30, 2019 by Arkhanist

[WatcherintheWater]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

Stictly speaking this isn't true

Company with a unit of 40 with sky hooks getting thier bonus against a monster with a 4+ save: (only showing sky hook damage here)
.029 wound/pts (this include khemist cost)

Darkshard with no help against the same thing:
.033 wound/pts

That said likely you might bring a sorc, but the sorc will most likely be more for black guard, and any help to dark shards would be a secondary effect. 

Darkshards can easily be a staple unit that you bring a big squad and hit with +1/+1 and give reroll hits and wounds if you want it to be a back bone to your army. Or a battle line where you bring 10/10/20 using the 20 to buff up with +1 to wound  so that you can snipe characters early in the game, and the other 10 as a screen that can also do decent damage. 

Darkshards are no joke. 
 

If you are just comparing damage output, and put in the Pistols & the Arkanaut ranged attack, they go up to .048, so basically 40% more damage/point than the Darkshards vs heroes & monsters (.037 vs non-hero/monsters). And the Arkanauts can take 28 wounds before you have to remove a single skyhook.

Darkshards have some other pluses though. They are faster, more maneuverable, and have +1 Bravery. Good point on using a mix of unit sizes, too.

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, WatcherintheWater said:

If you are just comparing damage output, and put in the Pistols & the Arkanaut ranged attack, they go up to .048, so basically 40% more damage/point than the Darkshards vs heroes & monsters (.037 vs non-hero/monsters). And the Arkanauts can take 28 wounds before you have to remove a single skyhook.

Darkshards have some other pluses though. They are faster, more maneuverable, and have +1 Bravery. Good point on using a mix of unit sizes, too.

And that the darl shards have a longer effective range. The pistols and such aren't the real draw its all the sky hooks as it's about killing the target you want to kill not the one you are barely in range to kill.

 

If i wanted to math all the ranged units damage id also add in all there melee damage too. 

 

Im also not saging the company are bad, but just better than darkshard as a blanket statement isnt true. 

 

The company gets better if you break a soul scream birdge or other buffs, and the company is better against stuff with a 3+ save or better. Also dark shards will likely have to move for every shooting they do.

Edited September 30, 2019 by mmimzie