AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[stratigo]

1 minute ago, AthelLoren said:

Gotrek makes everything better.

Like, legit, 4 wizards casting 2 spells a turn is true madness. With a native plus 2 to cast from hurricanum and the ability to self shank for big numbers. the entire battlefield will be exploding all over the place. Even Nagash won't be able to stop your magical mayham (although you can't stop him either. Magical nuke off). 

[zilberfrid]

Thanks for the analysis swarmofseals!

Dark Riders have a weak missile profile, but good save and bravery reduction in an aura, I think mixing a few in to provide cheap "melee" is a good idea, and if the opponent brings save - stuff, that's your target.

Edited September 30, 2019 by zilberfrid

[swarmofseals]

15 minutes ago, Batch said:

Mate you forgot Steam Tanks

otherwise great analysis. 

Will go back and correct that.

4 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Thanks for the analysis swarmofseals!

Dark Riders have a weak missile profile, but good save and bravery reduction in an aura, I think mixing a few in to provide cheap "melee" is a good idea, and if the opponent brings save - stuff, that's your target.

Yeah, they are reasonably defensively efficient against no rend, and the bravery debuff is a bit of icing. They are also quite fast. I think I'd mostly prefer Pistoliers in this role, but I could be wrong.

[zilberfrid]

25 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Yeah, they are reasonably defensively efficient against no rend, and the bravery debuff is a bit of icing. They are also quite fast. I think I'd mostly prefer Pistoliers in this role, but I could be wrong.

I am planning to use a few of them as cheap-ish objective grabbers. Cav is now cheap enough to use as bodies, and if they can shoot a bit when on a target, that's just icing on the cake. I need more save than 5+ though. Not that I won't also use pistoleers and outriders, but these may be in another army.

My Dark Riders will be Empire Knights painted primarily black, with more skull imagery to reflect the bravery debuff they give.

[Milosh]

It's worth noting teleporting Irondrakes through a  24 inch Soulscream Bridge seems solid.  They also get to double shoot too.

[overtninja]

On 9/29/2019 at 2:08 AM, Charlo said:

Damn Shadow Warriors are savage now.

I'm going to convert all my Glade Guard into them, and then run like 4 groups of them to pop out of terrain and shell anything on backfield objectives into the floor. I'm willing to bank on that kind of strategy, because it means the rest of my army can commit to combat without having to hold back.

[zilberfrid]

I find the performance of the Celestar Ballista a bit out of line for its points. Is there something I am missing or is it blatant favouritism?

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Glad to hear sisters of the watch are decent. I was hoping to use them as a part of my AoS-Ified “Araby” army that focuses on magic and elementals, for now using HallowHeart rules.

Need to figure out if my djinn should still be a celestant prime, how I can include one and how many phoenixes I can squeeze in as elementals

 

[Arkhanist]

6 hours ago, Broken Netcode said:

Oh absolutely! Zhufbar Air Corps ride again!

My current thoughts are in order of most probable:
- A Celestial Hurricanum IF their +1 to hit ability works on Stormcast CoS units. That way I can buff the Celestar Ballistas and have some pretty good mortal wound output

-20 Handgunners (will just use thunderer models) and an extra command point, as they would benefit from the Greywater buffs.

-A General on Griffon, because Karl Franz is still awesome (albeit leading dwarfs) and the statline is pretty good for the price point despite not having any synergy with the allegiance or units.

Stormcast CoS units do gain the Cities of Sigmar keyword (was in a community article and the vid review) which Hurricanums buff now, so that is definitely an option - been thinking about that one myself.

edit: Hah, missed you'd already checked, sorry! Nice new list, will be interested in how it plays out.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Arkhanist

[Enwolved]

Hey guys, 

I saw many people already picking command traits and artefacts. Any source where I can see them already?

EDIT: nevermind, found them on 1d4chan

Edited September 30, 2019 by Enwolved

[Dracan]

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

MATHHAMMER REVIEW PT 1.: THE SHOOTENING

I've completed my basic number crunching for shooting, and wow is this book's balance tight! I'm going to split things out into different categories and go in depth from there.

A note on the statistics I am using: I use a self made formula called Weighted Damage Rating to compare damage types across rend. It's not perfect but it gives a pretty accurate estimate of the value of different rend types and mortal wounds. Note that it is a measure of efficiency not absolute power: it shows basically the average expected damage (weighted for rend) that a unit will cause per point that you spent on it.

For defense, I use simple defensive efficiency: the expected wounds pre-save wounds it will take to kill a unit per point that the unit cost. I provide two ratings, one vs. rend - and one vs. mortal wounds. Performance for other rend types will fall somewhere in between these two numbers.

In both cases higher numbers are better.

I've used max unit sizes for all calculations.

ARTILLERY

  Reveal hidden contents

Helblaster Volley Gun offense: .0216/.0251/.0287/.0335 for long range no engineer/long range engineer/point blank no engineer/point blank engineer firing 2 decks. For 3 decks its: .0194/.0291/.0259/.0388. This math assumes that with an engineer you will reroll any double and keep any other result. This may not be quite optimized. 

Helstorm Rockets offense: .0255/.0297 for salvo without/with engineer. Numbers are lower if you don't use salvo fire. 

Celestar Ballista: .0235/.0469 for single/multi shot

Analysis: 

Overall these numbers are quite low at baseline, but they can be buffed quite a bit. A Lord-ordinator would help, and it might be that with the Greywater Fastness battalion, a Lord Ordinator, and a Runelord you can start getting things up to respectable levels for at least a turn. Personally I think there are better choices but I could see it working.

MISSILE INFANTRY

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Offense:

Darkshards: .0671 - can benefit from additional +1 to hit/+2 to wound

Crossbows: .0674/.112 without/with freeguild general CA - can benefit from additional +1 to hit

Handgunners: .0611/.0954 without/with freeguild general CA - hit/wound capped

Irondrakes: .0827/.0876/.1026/.1082 non-monster/monster/with runelord buff vs. non-monster/with runelord buff vs. monster. Can benefit from +1 hit and +1 wound.

Shadow Warriors: .0406/.0672 outside/inside cover. Can benefit from +1 to wound (+1 to hit/+2 to wound outside cover)

Sisters of the Watch: .0877/.1096 without/with Nomad Prince CA. Can benefit from +1 wound.

 

Defense:

Darkshards: .15/.1 vs. r- and mw respectively

Crossbows/Handgunners: .12/.1

Irondrakes: .133/.067 vs. melee .2/.067 vs. ranged

Shadow Warriors: .136/.091

Sisters of the Watch: .09375/.0625

 

Analysis:

I think every one of these units is viable. While some clearly have much more efficient offense than others, the ones that have lower offense have other strengths that give them a role. Specifically, Darkshards enjoy greater mobility and have a bit more room for buffs than the other warscrolls. They don't need to stand still to get full value. Shadow Warriors, on the other hand, get that nice deepstrike.

The other options are all quite close together. For all of those folks upset over the crossbow nerf: it was needed. Crossbows are still the most efficient choice at baseline and they also enjoy excellent range. Their downside is that they can't stand and shoot. Aside from raw efficiency, their major buffer (the Freeguild General) can tag three units for one CP, which makes these a great choice as the backbone of a gunline.

Handgunners are still very good, albeit noticeably less efficient than crossbows. They do get the benefit of stand and shoot, however. They also have a more potent champion than most other units, with the long rifle providing very valuable hero sniping. Handgunners could be great in large numbers as a frontline or screen or good in MSU configuration to get a bunch of long rifles. The fact that the Freeguild General tags three with one CP could go a long way toward making MSU doable. It's worth noting that with just the FG buff, these guys should be at 2+/2+, so they don't benefit from any further buffs to scale them.

Irondrakes are a bit tougher and fall between crossbows and handguns in terms of efficiency. That said they offer nice rend, especially when buffed by a Runelord. If you want rend at range, these guys are a great choice. They don't get stand and shoot, but they sit at 3+/3+ normally and thus can be scaled to be even more efficient with further hit and wound bonuses. If you can get Irondrakes to 2+/2+, they end up much more efficient than even crossbows. That said, you do need a Runelord for every unit and even then the buff will sometimes fail... so it might not be viable to take 90 of them in the way you could with crossbows. Note that they do perform better than either handgunners or crossbows at baseline without any buffs.

Sisters of the Watch are almost as efficient as crossbows with basic buffs, can benefit from an extra +1 to wound, are more efficient without buffs, and can stand and shoot. All around great, but the most defensively inefficient. EDIT: corrected misinformation about the Nomad Prince CP.

MISSILE "CAVALRY"

  Hide contents

Offense:

Gyrocopter bombs (once per battle): .06

Gyrocopter steam guns: .0074 per model hit (again, I'm assuming the full size three copter unit)

Gyrobomber bombs: .0514

Gyrobomber clattergun: .0253

Outriders: .0443/.0831 without/with general buff

Pistoliers: .0443/.0886 not charging/charging. I didn't factor in the general buff here because it's not realistic to pull off with Pistoliers.

Dark Riders: .0285

Scourgerunner Chariots: .0838

 

Defense:

Gyrocopters: .1333/.067

Gyrobombers: .143/.071

Outriders: .15/.1

Pistoliers: .15/.1

Dark Riders: .222/.111

Scourgerunner Chariots: .18/.12

 

Analysis:

Dark Riders are the only warscroll with really weak shooting efficiency. I was surprised at how good the chariots are. I don't think I'd take Outriders personally, but they are fine if you like them. Pistoliers are a bit more interesting, albeit at very short range. The gyros are both potentially very useful. The Gyrobomber can pick off heroes quite effectively with the bombs and the clattergun adds a bit of extra damage. The copters have a one shot bomb, but their steam guns can really do work against hordes. If you can reach 13 models with each copter, they will be just as efficient as any of the infantry (not counting the bombs either).  

EDIT: Steam Tanks!

  Reveal hidden contents

Steam Tank Cannon: .0121/.0161/.0202 default/+1hit/+2hit

Steam Gun: .0146/.0194 default/+1hit

Steam Gun (more pressure): .0188/.025 default/+1hit

Defense: .18/.06

The commander version will just be 25% worse on each mark.

Overall, I think these fall flat unfortunately. Even with impact hits and their command ability running their melee profile is also terrible. Combine that with random move and you have a very cool unit that just doesn't measure up.

 

Some very informative maths there.

Could you please add corsairs with handbows

[JackStreicher]

@swarmofseals will you also make a melee list? =}

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I find the performance of the Celestar Ballista a bit out of line for its points. Is there something I am missing or is it blatant favouritism?

It's not so much actualy if you look at the numbers it rates about the same level as dark shards or shadow warriors, with similar levels of draw backs, and needs for support. 

[zilberfrid]

39 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

It's not so much actualy if you look at the numbers it rates about the same level as dark shards or shadow warriors, with similar levels of draw backs, and needs for support. 

Is it the rockets and volley guns then that are simply not good? They perform less, and cost more.

[zilberfrid]

I just thought of one thing. I have about 6k points of CoS units, and a gaming table at home. This could make for an interesting "Draft" game where two players simply pick one at their turn, and fill out points. this way. When you reach 2000 points, you stop, and the other fills out until he or she has 2000 points (or 1000 points, preferably that maybe, because it will not be that long).

There are enough cities to choose from for allegiance abilities, and the players could play many games before ending up with the same list.

This is something AFAIK no other battletome can give, a self-contained game with a lot of playstyles from the same set of models.

[XReN]

A fun Greywater gunline list I threw together, nothing super fancy but has a lot of alpha strike potential.

 

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders

Steam Tank Commander (250)
- Artefact: Steam Piston Plate Mail
Battlemage (90)
- Specialisation: Ulgu
-Spell Lore: Choking Fumes
-The General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Trait: Drillmaster
Cogsmith (60)
- Artefact: Magnificient Macroscope
Lord-Ordinator (140)

Battleline
30 x Freeguild Handgunners (300)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
- Honoured Retinue
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)

War Machines
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)


Battalions
Greywater Artillery Company (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain
Soulscream Bridge (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103

Edited September 30, 2019 by XReN

[dekay]

12 hours ago, stratigo said:

I think people are missing what is good about tempest’s eye. It isn’t great to just mindlessly zoom outriders about cause they come in that battalion and are fast. And if you want a melee alpha army; the living city is much better (deep strike a max size unit of DGK, with some cp they get plus 3 to charge). Tempest’s eye allows for basic footslogging infantry to have a more effective board presence. It increases the threat range for basic shooting attacks by a lot while not exposing your skirmish contingent without a screen

Agreed. And, elaborating on what I suggested before, one of the biggest winners of this are Darkshards.

Movement buffs on fast units are nice, they give them even more flexibility. However. On Darkshards it just so happens they can completely change their role.

First of all, darkshards are only Cities basic infantry that can shoot at full effectiveness after moving. So everything here is of much less use for crossbowmen, handgunners, sisters and irondrakes. Typically, in most scenarios, you can deploy your infantry just outside of 24' from enemy deployment zone. With Darkshards' 6 move and 16 range, they have a base threat range of 22. Not enough to reach anything if they get the first turn.

However, look at what we have at our disposal:  flat +3 move bonus (threat range 25) - anything standing on the edge of enemy deployment zone can be now hit. This is huge, because it's not just a bonus, it's opening entirely new utility for your cheap, battleline, easily buffable unit. But of course, we can't always count on targets being put so much forward. Worry not, we have 2 separate command skills, one from sorceress and other from the city itself, allowing them to run and shoot (26-31). Tempest's Eye grants them +1 to run bonus (27-32), and hornblower another one, on top of that (28-33). If we really need it, we can use the basic command skill to get an auto 6 on run movement.

>Digression on Tempest's Eye Command Point potential: It costs a command point again, of course, but, first of all, we get CP generation from adjutant, as every city does. And to add to that, Tempests'Eye gets a CP generating artifact. And, possibly most fun of all, CP generating spell. That you can take on sorceress getting +2 to cast from sacrificing some cheap minion. So let's just assume, that, together with actually usable battalion granting an extra one, you won't run out of CP easily.

So, back to our Darkshards that now have 33 inch effective range, forcing all enemy units to start more than *9* inches from their deployment zone edge to not get hit by our cheap battleline. And that's not accounting for things like Wildform (35) and maybe even Cogs (37) that are not fully reliable (compared to everything mentioned earlier) but if opponents wants to be safe, they must back off even further. Squishing them more and more into their territory, and leaving a lot more space to, for example, drop Shadow Warriors. OR for good old Outrider manouvering. Or just for our tougher infantry running at insane speeds to fortify the objectives.

And what happens if there *is* a target for Darkshards? Hey, our city offers free +1 to wound from shooting from a warlord trait, turning that shooty blob's profile into 3+/3+. Why not drop a hurricanum on them as well for 2+/3+? If you positively must hit with each and every one of those bolts, there's either volleey fire sommand ability or Knight Azyros' aura. And with his speed with all the buffs mentioned here, he *will* get this aura in range.

So. Insanely fast cavalry, first turn charges and so on are nice, but you have no choice but to respect the power of an angry shooty aelf.

EDIT: I forgot to mention two things: Of course, some of this applies to other cities as well - run and shoot fom Sorceress can still get your crossbows in range even without Tempest's Eye bonuses, but, obviously, Tempest's Eye does it better and with no randomness involved. Also, we get +1 to wound without resorting to spells ; )

Second: And what if you don't have first turn? Good thing your frontine is composed of cheap battleline infantry enemy has to chew through, especially with their buffed save, right? ; ) Tempest's Eye's other strength is turning your chaff into more effective shields against alpha strikes. And those darkshards were cheap anyway, you won't miss them *that* much, and by charging into them, enemy is now in range of way more dangerous things.

Edited September 30, 2019 by dekay

[stratigo]

Tempest's eye also adds company. And arkanaut company with tempest eye buffs and a khemist is probably the deadliest shooting unit in the game.

[Batch]

3 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Tempest's eye also adds company. And arkanaut company with tempest eye buffs and a khemist is probably the deadliest shooting unit in the game.

Kind of sad that Runelords didnt use the Duardin keyword in their Prayers to give the Overlords some extra rend, could you imagine

[stratigo]

Just now, Batch said:

Kind of sad that Runelords didnt use the Duardin keyword in their Prayers to give the Overlords some extra rend, could you imagine

it would start to get silly

[dekay]

13 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Tempest's eye also adds company. And arkanaut company with tempest eye buffs and a khemist is probably the deadliest shooting unit in the game.

Arkanauts hit extremely hard, but the role seems to be  different , They're limited, first of all - you need at least 6 other units to take both company and khemist. And let's hope that it won't get FAQ'd that Kharadron and Stormcasts count for the same 1-4 limit as some people claim.

Buffed skyhooks can reach basically everything and murderize the hell of any hero/monster they see, but as both company and khemist are more expensive than darkshards and sorceress, respectively, I count them as more of an elite option.

Darklings you can basically spam, it's just the matter of how many you can squeeze under the aura. And the answer is 'a lot' ; )

Plus, well, you need 6 City units to take Arkanauts + Khemist anyway. Apart from obligatory Hurricanum, 2 of those might as well be Darkshards and Sorceress ; )

[dekay]

So let's try this:

Aether Khemist (Adjutant, Seerstone Amulet) 140

Sorceress (General, Hawk Eyed, Celestial Visions) 90

Hurricanum with Battlemage ( Celestial Visions) 280

Knight Azyros 100

30 Arkanaut Company (9 skyhooks) 360

30 Darkshards 300

20 Dreadspears (retinue/sacrifice fodder)) 180

1450 points. Some positioning experiments prove that, while properly bunched up, all 60 shooters can be buffed.

And we get 550 more points to add whatever we may please.

So let's say...

10 Shadow Warriors 110

10 Shadow Warriors 110

10 Shadow Warriors 110

(Either enemy gives up midfield to avoud the hail of murder we can unleash upon him, or he charges on us leaving space availible on the backline)

Assassin, 80 Because we very much want life of anyone charging our big blob of firepower to be even harder)

Battlemage (Wildform, Celestial Visions) 90 Gotta go fast! Rapidly relocating swarm of short guys with pistol, go!)

Extra Command point for 50, because there were points left.

Opinions?

 

[XReN]

11 minutes ago, dekay said:

Battlemage (Wildform, Celestial Visions) 90 Gotta go fast! Rapidly relocating swarm of short guys with pistol, go!)

I'd probably give him "Strike Eagles" instead for even more ranged mortals

[Sputnik]

Couple of quick questions;

I'm looking to start an AOS army (currently just play Underworlds) and really like the look of the CoS book. A couple of people have warned me it might be a harder army to collect as a lot of models are online only through GW. Is this something to worry about?

I love the Gotrek model and want him in any CoS army I collect. Does there seem to be any particular city specific rules which would benefit him? I heard that the old cities rules made it impossible to take named characters, but I'm guessing this is no longer a thing?

[XReN]

4 minutes ago, Sputnik said:

Couple of quick questions;

I'm looking to start an AOS army (currently just play Underworlds) and really like the look of the CoS book. A couple of people have warned me it might be a harder army to collect as a lot of models are online only through GW. Is this something to worry about?

I love the Gotrek model and want him in any CoS army I collect. Does there seem to be any particular city specific rules which would benefit him? I heard that the old cities rules made it impossible to take named characters, but I'm guessing this is no longer a thing?

Yes, CoS might be challenging to collect.

There is no way Gotrek can benefit from any of City's abilities, it's up to you to create a list in which your army will benefit from Gotrek