AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[Duke of Gisoreux]

1 hour ago, Thaliontil said:

Where is the preview? Can't find it in Warhammer Community.

[kuroyume]

Everyone saying Phoenicium is not that great, but i see it as a solid counter to Slaanesh and other armies with out of order activations or that delay your activations. Put your chaff up front, let it get killed by the enemy fighting first or fighting twice in a row, then respond with buff. 

[Frowny]

I think it's not as hard to trigger as you might think. Especially on the defensive, since the enemy will be actively trying to kill off units (for objectives etc.). They fight first, kill something and you get +1/+1 for everything else. Or they pick a more minor combat and you can swing first. It's the same kind of thing as tzaangor enlightened with their rerolls, which is deceptively strong. That is easier to trigger but this is army wide. 

Depending on ally rules it would also go great with msu skinks or thunderers. Either they kill them and give you +1/+1 or they don't and you flee. Although with prior cities rules that wasn't possible so who knows.

When do full video reviews tend to go up? This weekend?

[Double Misfire]

The second of my two articles on incorporating axed units  into a Cities of Sigmar force is up. This one focues on aelves (the previous one was humans and duardin), and features a detailed guide covering every discontinued aelf or elf unit going as far back as Wood Elf Beastmasters, giving suggestions on how to best incorporate them into a modern Cities of Sigmar force:

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2019/09/no-substitute-discontinued-units-in_26.html

Feedback as always very welcome  

 

(Props to @dekayfor his amazing Grunstock Skycutter conversion idea )

[Mutton]

Going to argue it's a great ability. Your opponent is either going to have to finish off your units and activate the bonus (which, remember, affects ALL Phoenicium units, including heroes) or he's going to have to activate combat units inefficiently to avoid proccing it. Up against a Terrogheist that'll wipe out anything immediately? Well good, now the rest of your army has +1 hit and wound.

It makes your opponent second-guess whether he wants to wipe out a unit right off the bat with his big monster/hero or whatever.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Mutton

[michu]

And remember - it activates if one of your squishy heroes get killed.

[michu]

Quick, enlist - adventure, glory and feathered hats await you!!

[zilberfrid]

11 minutes ago, michu said:

Quick, enlist - adventure, glory and feathered hats await you!!

Extra large hat feathers you say? I'm running!

[The Merchant Prince]

3 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

Fits the theme but is terrible rulewise, unless you make a list with some really weak units to be killed "on purpose".

To be fair it'd be very easy (and reasonably thematic) to put MSU of flagellants in a list to be killed off to buff up the killier units. They have no save after all.

[mmimzie]

In the facebook comments they said most of your army cant be stormcast eternals. Interesting.

[swarmofseals]

I think that the Phoenicum ability will be far harder to make work in practice than you guys think. For it to do anything of note you need to have all of the following come together:

• You must have at least two units in combat
• At least one of those units must be a unit that your enemy can kill in one go
• At least one of those units must be a unit that is strong enough to get value from the bonus in excess of the cost of the unit you are throwing away
• Your opponent has to choose to kill the weak unit before you activate the strong unit

The first three characteristics are non-trivial but certainly doable. It's the last one that is the real trouble. 

Let's examine some scenarios:

A: You have one weak unit and one strong unit in combat with your opponent's strong unit. If you are activating first and are trying to get the bonus, you activate your weak unit. Your opponent then activates and will choose to attack your strong unit as much as possible. Unless the positioning is such that your opponent is forced to allocate enough attacks to your weak unit to kill it, you won't get the bonus. Even if you do get the bonus in this situation, the +1 to hit and wound with a now damaged strong unit will have to exceed the value of simply attacking first with your strong unit at full strength, and exceed it by enough to justify the loss of your weak unit.

B: You have one weak unit and one strong unit in combat with your opponent's two separate units. If you go first, you activate your weak unit, then they activate the unit fighting your strong unit, then you have to activate your strong unit before they kill your weak unit. You'd be better off activating your strong unit first and forgetting about the bonus. If they go first, then they activate their unit fighting your strong unit, then you activate your weak unit, then they have to kill your weak unit and you will in fact get the bonus. Keep in mind that this scenario will only occur if your opponent chooses to charge in this way, which basically gives your opponent control over whether it happens or not. You'd need to manufacture a situation where they really need to clear out that chaff unit at the same turn that they charge your strong unit.

C : You have multiple strong units in combat. In this situation you might get the bonus, but you will be losing something of significant value in order to get it. I think this is the most realistic scenario most of the time, but even then it likely won't come up a ton.

In summary:

If you have more units in combat than your opponent, then they will just choose to attack your strong units when they have to activate and you will only get the bonus if you can manage the positioning in such a way that they are forced to allocate enough attacks to kill a weak unit. 

If your opponent has more units in combat than you do, then they will simply avoid attacking the weak unit until you are forced to activate your strong unit.

If you have the same number of units in combat, then you will only get the bonus if the opponent activates first (most of the time meaning it was their turn and they had to choose to create this situation).

 

I do think that the bonus will be much more likely to activate if your opponent has abilities which force him to strike at the start of the combat phase, but even then it won't help you against the strike-first unit. If you pile a weak unit and a strong unit into a keeper, it's just going to smash up your strong unit. You have to feed a weak unit to the keeper while striking some other unit that doesn't strike first elsewhere on the board. It doesn't even work against FEC, because Savage Strike only works when they charge... so basically they'd have to choose to charge some garbage unit of yours while also fighting your good unit with something that doesn't strike first. It'd take a pretty dumb opponent to choose to do that. 

 

The thing that will really help make this work is if we get an ability that allows us to activate and pile in from >3". That'd make this ability a lot more realistic.

[zilberfrid]

9 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

In the facebook comments they said most of your army cant be stormcast eternals. Interesting.

That's good news, this leaves more options for balancing.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

15 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

In the facebook comments they said most of your army cant be stormcast eternals. Interesting.

I'm sorry for anyone who hoped otherwise but personally I'm tremendously glad to hear it!

[mmimzie]

18 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

That's good news, this leaves more options for balancing.

 

9 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

I'm sorry for anyone who hoped otherwise but personally I'm tremendously glad to hear it!

I agree. This book is about those older models, and it shouldn't be used as the alternate book for another facition. 

 

That said i do really hope i can ally my deepkin. 

[Acid_Nine]

The phoenicum’s rules seem to be tricky, but I think we’re forgetting that there will be cities of sigmar  faction rules on top of this. This seems like a nice extra little bonus to remember, and could be played tactfully depending on how the game goes. I want to see the full rules before we decide what is good and what is ******.

 

[Thiagoma]

41 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

In summary:

If you have more units in combat than your opponent, then they will just choose to attack your strong units when they have to activate and you will only get the bonus if you can manage the positioning in such a way that they are forced to allocate enough attacks to kill a weak unit. 

If your opponent has more units in combat than you do, then they will simply avoid attacking the weak unit until you are forced to activate your strong unit.

If you have the same number of units in combat, then you will only get the bonus if the opponent activates first (most of the time meaning it was their turn and they had to choose to create this situation).

That is what i was trying to say.

 

Now compare to the other cities:

Greywater Fastness: + 3 range and 1 extra artillery (always work during the whole game)

Tempests eye: +3 to move + 1 to save on first round (always work)

Anvilguard: 1 extra artifact, + d3 cp, one trait still unknow (always work during the whole game)

 

Meanwhile:

Phoenicium : Requires a unit to die IN THE COMBAT PHASE  to get a bonus. Death by spells, ranged or other abilities wont trigger it. (trait may not be activated at all)

 

 

[willange]

Interestingly enough, the Runelord is the only unit in the new "Cities of Sigmar" store page that is classified as a Priest.  I guess we're getting some Duardin Rune-Prayers?

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Compared to the others, it seems that the Phoenicium is weak. Would have been neat if they got a blanket bonus save or some sort of come out of the ashes like necrons.

[Zanzou]

4 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

The second of my two articles on incorporating axed units  into a Cities of Sigmar force is up. This one focues on aelves (the previous one was humans and duardin), and features a detailed guide covering every discontinued aelf or elf unit going as far back as Wood Elf Beastmasters, giving suggestions on how to best incorporate them into a modern Cities of Sigmar force:

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2019/09/no-substitute-discontinued-units-in_26.html

Feedback as always very welcome  

 

(Props to @dekayfor his amazing Grunstock Skycutter conversion idea )

Might I just say I love your efforts on this.  Thank you!

[Zanzou]

38 minutes ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

Compared to the others, it seems that the Phoenicium is weak. Would have been neat if they got a blanket bonus save or some sort of come out of the ashes like necrons.

Are people forgetting that Phoenicium already has options at their disposal if they want to increase their survivability even further?

[zilberfrid]

43 minutes ago, willange said:

Interestingly enough, the Runelord is the only unit in the new "Cities of Sigmar" store page that is classified as a Priest.  I guess we're getting some Duardin Rune-Prayers?

Yeah, but I still have hope for an Excelsior Warpriest return.

[willange]

12 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Yeah, but I still have hope for an Excelsior Warpriest return.

Me too!  Although I saw some screenshots of a Facebook post getting passed around the Cities of Sigmar Facebook page that seemed to show Battlemages on foot are making a comeback.  Perhaps there's hope for the Excelsior Warpriest?

 

[Double Misfire]

Nobody's mentioned it yet, but yesterday's Warhammer Community city primer revealed "official" Stormhosts for three more of the seven main cities, something long time Free Cities/Cities of Sigmar fans have been clamouring for since Firestorm.

Hallowheart got the Hallowed Knights,  the Phoenicium the less well known Lions of Sigmar, and the Living City the positively obscure Ghyran Guard. With Hammerhal hosting the Hammers of Sigmar and Hallowed Knights, Anvilgard the Anvils of the Heldenhammer, and Tempest's Eye the Tempest Lords, that just leaves Greywater Fastness, which I think would have its character best suited without any resident Stomcast.  

[michu]

1 minute ago, Double Misfire said:

best suited without any resident Stomcast.

You want Lord-Ordinators to lose their jobs? Thunders are as good as black powder!

[Gecktron]

58 minutes ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

 

There are also command traits. We know from the Greywater Fastness Preview that they can be quite powerful.