AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[prochuvi]

2 hours ago, Matador said:

ALERT! ALERT! 

 

The model purchase list for Free Peoples on the GW site has let the cat out of the bag, here is a link to it that show the 21 models that are now Free Peoples: New Free People lists.  Of course no change on the warscroll builder yet, that will come in conjunction with the Cities of Sigmar battle tome.  

Not sure How I feel about it, but what the hey, if they make changes we make changes.  How that new book is along shortly. 

Its a shame but seems its true and dispossesed have lost the warriors forever together the quarreler\thunderers

[Double Misfire]

4 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Its a shame but seems its true and dispossesed have lost the warriors forever together the quarreler\thunderers

We lost access to good Dwarf Warrior/Crossbow/Thunderer models over a decade ago anyway. 😉

Freaking beardlings

[Duke of Gisoreux]

I created a list with units that probably get squatted and how they could be used as alternate units that will probably still exist:

Unit	Use as
Warrior Priest	Excelsior Warpriest or Freeguild General
Witch Hunter	Freeguild General
War Altar of Sigmar	Celestial Hurricanum or Luminark of Hysh
Unforged	Grimwrath Berzerker
Warriors	Longbeards
Quarrellers	Freeguild Crossbowmen
Thunderers	Freeguild Handgunners or Irondrakes
Archmage	Battlemage or Sorceress
Loremaster	Battlemage or Sorceress
Archmage on Dragon	Sorceress on Black Dragon
Drakeseer	Sorceress on Black Dragon
Swordmasters	Executioners
Freeguild Archers	Freeguild Guard or Shadow Warriors
Cannon	Helblaster Volley Gun
Organ Gun	Helblaster Volley Gun
Gunmaster	Cogsmith
White Lion Chariots	Drakespawn Chariots
White Lions	Wildwood Rangers
Dragon Noble	Anointed or Freeguild General
Dragonlord	Dreadlord on Black Dragon
Dragon Blades	Drakespawn Knights
Reavers	Dark Riders
Skywarden	Scourgerunner Chariots or Grundstok Gunhauler
High Warden	Freeguild General on Griffon
Chariots	Scourgerunner Chariots
Skycutters	Scourgerunner Chariots or Grundstok Gunhauler
Spireguard	Black Ark Corsairs, Darkshards or Dreadspears
Spellweaver	Battlemage or Sorceress
Wayfinder	Nomad Prince
Waystrider	Nomad Prince
Waywatcher	Nomad Prince
Glade Guard	Shadow Warriors

I am not sure about the units from Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower whether they get squatted or not. If so I would recommend the following alternatives:

Unit	Use as
Mistweaver Saih	Sorceress
Tenebrael Shard	Assassin
Excelsior Warpriest	Freeguild General

[zilberfrid]

10 hours ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

I created a list with units that probably get squatted and how they could be used as alternate units that will probably still exist:

Unit	Use as
Warrior Priest	Excelsior Warpriest or Freeguild General
Witch Hunter	Freeguild General
War Altar of Sigmar	Celestial Hurricanum or Luminark of Hysh
Unforged	Grimwrath Berzerker
Warriors	Longbeards
Quarrellers	Freeguild Crossbowmen
Thunderers	Freeguild Handgunners or Irondrakes
Archmage	Battlemage or Sorceress
Loremaster	Battlemage or Sorceress
Archmage on Dragon	Sorceress on Black Dragon
Drakeseer	Sorceress on Black Dragon
Swordmasters	Executioners
Freeguild Archers	Freeguild Guard or Shadow Warriors
Cannon	Helblaster Volley Gun
Organ Gun	Helblaster Volley Gun
Gunmaster	Cogsmith
White Lion Chariots	Drakespawn Chariots
White Lions	Wildwood Rangers
Dragon Noble	Anointed or Freeguild General
Dragonlord	Dreadlord on Black Dragon
Dragon Blades	Drakespawn Knights
Reavers	Dark Riders
Skywarden	Scourgerunner Chariots or Grundstok Gunhauler
High Warden	Freeguild General on Griffon
Chariots	Scourgerunner Chariots
Skycutters	Scourgerunner Chariots or Grundstok Gunhauler
Spireguard	Black Ark Corsairs, Darkshards or Dreadspears
Spellweaver	Battlemage or Sorceress
Wayfinder	Nomad Prince
Waystrider	Nomad Prince
Waywatcher	Nomad Prince
Glade Guard	Shadow Warriors

I am not sure about the units from Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower whether they get squatted or not. If so I would recommend the following alternatives:

Unit	Use as
Mistweaver Saih	Sorceress
Tenebrael Shard	Assassin
Excelsior Warpriest	Freeguild General

Love the list! Do note that the only General currently for sale is one with a two-handed weapon.

For those interested, I have lined up my gryph-creatures on 1cm grid paper.

Left to right:

- griffin from general or battlemage

- lord arcanum gryph-charger 

- demigryph

- bretonnian horse (cut beak)

- wood elf horse (tsaangor head)

- gryph hound

- gryph hound from Excelsior warpriest (with a rider made from Chaos familiar).

- tiny griffin from general set

 

 

[Aelfric]

Is it possible that there might be a new cannon model, possibly looking like the one worn round the neck of the Dankhold Troggoth?  It is a new sculpt after all and it seems a bit odd to give it a cannon if cannons are being axed.

[Rhivan]

So I'm writing the initial stages for my Free City. It's admittedly very much in a WIP state (First Draft) but I thought I'd post it and see what you guys think of it so far.

Nagganar
~~~~~~~~~~~
Realm: Shyrish (Formerly) Currently: Flying
Size: Metropolis
Inhabitants: Aelves and Humans
Factions: Darkling Covens, Freeguild, Daughters of Khaine, ???

History: Nagganar was originally a city situated in Shyish. Settled in mountains remote and cold, but rich in minerals both precious and magical in nature. When scions of Slaanesh invaded the realm of death some found
the aeleven city and began to lay siege. While Nagganar was well armed and armored the chaos hosts were numberless and covered the entire mountain range destroying everything in their wake. The inhabitants desperate to
escape their doom bid their sorcerresses and mages to find some way for them to escape. Lest their souls be anguish for eternity, and escape they did. The Mages of Nagganar devised a scheme to rip their very mountain 
to the skies.

Since than Nagganar has soared throughout the skies aiding various factions against chaos. While not always successful in saving the lands of those people, there are many new towns, villages, and cities that orbit the
mountain.

Physical Description: I want to talk about this as I've had fun imagining how the city looks although I have very little in the ability to write or describe it. I imagine the top of the mountian to be a sprawling
metropolis of aelven architecture with a massive tower crowning the top of the mountain, while on the underside of the mountain there are stalactite esque towers (that are connected by massive bridges that
crisscross between the spires) that climb down to reach the earth with ballista and 
other weapons of war addorning them ready for war. The tower that crowns the mountain also is the lowest raching stalactite, and has a drawbridge or ramp like structure that can be lowered to deploy Nagganar's 
armies or it's traders with it's fellow groundbound cities. 

Now orbiting Nagganar and connected by great bridges are cities and lands that have been connected to the mountain over time. These will be primarily human cities, but I like the idea of having daughters of khaine
temples and other structures here as well.

Colors: Black, Purple, & Gold are the primary scheme of the Elves of Nagganar however many of the different cities that orbit Nagganar have an additional color to represent their former kingdoms & homes.
~~~~~~~~~~~

I decided to embrace the High Fantasy nature of Age of Sigmar, and make my city fly. A reason for this is I can now just insert my city into any narrative I'd like with "Well my City flies so they are here now". One thing I've been considering but haven't decided on is having Nagganar raid different cities, lands or factions for food, or plunder. I'm not 100% sure on the direction I'm going to take the city yet though so it's up for grabs.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Some interesting info that suggests previous speculation could be true. I'm inclined to believe this, as the repurposing of the Watchtower TM is so lazy but so GW. Also the Demigryph general makes a lot of sense, and is feasible.

Edit: I actually like the watchtower and will be happy to have it. No endless spells makes me happy.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Knight Scáthach of Fimm

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

1 hour ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

Some interesting info that suggests previous speculation could be true. I'm inclined to believe this, as the repurposing of the Watchtower TM is so lazy but so GW. Also the Demigryph general makes a lot of sense, and is feasible.

Edit: I actually like the watchtower and will be happy to have it. No endless spells makes me happy.

Odd, you're the second person I've heard call the Watchtower repurposing lazy enough to be GW. I'm not criticizing, I'm just amused that I've seen it twice. Unless it was you both times? Who knows?

I also like the watchtower. I was disappointed that their terrain kit was an old model for like half a second before I kind of shrugged and realized it was basically what I wanted from their terrain piece anyway!

I hope the Demigryph general is true. I want to be able to convert my Marius Lietdorf into a general!

[adreal]

Is that the watchtower they are talking about in the rumours?

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

@adreal

I'm pretty sure it is, yeah.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Heads up, the Forgeworld Free Peoples stuff is going. Manann's Blades are now out of stock in the UK. I actually decided to order a unit yesterday just in case.

[Cinncinnatus]

What do we think the chances are that Hammerhal allegiance abilities retain the Firestorm trait of allowing you to field ANY Order unit (except for Seraphon)? Probably pretty low right? Not that I don't mind that my Swifthawk Agents themed Tempest's Eye army has become a counts-as army (my 15 Reavers will find new life as Dark Riders!), but it would be a nice way to lessen the blow of having your models squated.

Of course, if this was the case, Hammerhal allegiance abilities would probably look pretty close to generic Order with maybe a few more things added on.

[zilberfrid]

3 hours ago, Cinncinnatus said:

What do we think the chances are that Hammerhal allegiance abilities retain the Firestorm trait of allowing you to field ANY Order unit (except for Seraphon)? Probably pretty low right? Not that I don't mind that my Swifthawk Agents themed Tempest's Eye army has become a counts-as army (my 15 Reavers will find new life as Dark Riders!), but it would be a nice way to lessen the blow of having your models squated.

Of course, if this was the case, Hammerhal allegiance abilities would probably look pretty close to generic Order with maybe a few more things added on.

I think legends will be excluded, but I think GW can feel the draw of a big soup faction.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

6 hours ago, Cinncinnatus said:

What do we think the chances are that Hammerhal allegiance abilities retain the Firestorm trait of allowing you to field ANY Order unit (except for Seraphon)? Probably pretty low right? Not that I don't mind that my Swifthawk Agents themed Tempest's Eye army has become a counts-as army (my 15 Reavers will find new life as Dark Riders!), but it would be a nice way to lessen the blow of having your models squated.

Of course, if this was the case, Hammerhal allegiance abilities would probably look pretty close to generic Order with maybe a few more things added on.

I highly doubt it, I think they will have access to all the factions in the book + Stormcast; not sure about Kharadrons. If they're not in the book or are not specifically stated to be usable, I don't think they will be included.

[darkspear]

I do hope they do away the faction restrictions in each cities given that the range is streamlined.  E.g everyone has access to wanderers, dispossessed etc.  Rather than the existing one which is Stormcast and Free Peoples plus plus.

 

 

[zilberfrid]

Looking at what I have, I am quite eager to make a "counts as dark elves" army.

• Glade riders as Dark Riders (I have 10)
• Bretonnian Knights as Dark Riders with shield (I have 8 )
• Empire Knights as Drakespawn Riders (I have 20)
• Militia outfitted archers as Shadow Warriors or Corsairs (I have some 30)

I'd have to find some stuff to count as bleakswords/dreadspears (guards do not look right for this) and leaders, but quite a bit of core could well be in my collection already.

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

10 hours ago, darkspear said:

I do hope they do away the faction restrictions in each cities given that the range is streamlined.  E.g everyone has access to wanderers, dispossessed etc.  Rather than the existing one which is Stormcast and Free Peoples plus plus.

 

 

I second this. I would prefer this bandaid book act like a “SM codex”. Cities are essentially just chapter tactics that cater to certain play styles.

[Beliman]

7 hours ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

I second this. I would prefer this bandaid book act like a “SM codex”. Cities are essentially just chapter tactics that cater to certain play styles.

That makes a lot os senses.

Maybe with one batallion for every city that gives to that city the oportunity to use other battletome-armies without using ally slots (Sylvaneth and StormCasts  for the Living City, etc...).

[Sethiris]

On 8/22/2019 at 4:06 PM, darkspear said:

I do hope they do away the faction restrictions in each cities given that the range is streamlined.  E.g everyone has access to wanderers, dispossessed etc.  Rather than the existing one which is Stormcast and Free Peoples plus plus.

 

 

I seriously doubt that to be honest. They will probably divide the city allegiances the same way they did in Firestorm, possibly with the exception of some factions being merged. So I doubt that you'll be able to field Wanderers within a Tempest's Eye or Phoenicium allegiance for instance. (except possibly as allies of course)

[Mcprowlington]

Quote

I do hope they do away the faction restrictions in each cities given that the range is streamlined.  E.g everyone has access to wanderers, dispossessed etc.  Rather than the existing one which is Stormcast and Free Peoples plus plus.

I really hope not, i know freedom of choice to mix any unit with any allegiance ability sounds great and all, but this would just be horrendously boring. It'd turn the process of army building from a puzzle of pros and cons, to a scramble of just find the best traits and slap that keyword on your army. Then GW has to be especially careful not to make any of the traits too powerful because any KO, DoK, fyreslayer, etc army can grab that keyword instead of their own and with all of these armies given access to a choice of 7 new faction traits you can rest assured something is going to end up broken somewhere. And when it does, and one set of traits ends up being blatantly better than the rest you can be sure GW will respond by nerfing the best units CoS has access to rather than simply adjusting the trait, leaving that previously OP city balanced at the cost of the rest now being borderline unusable. 

[Kamose]

On 8/19/2019 at 8:52 PM, adreal said:

Is that the watchtower they are talking about in the rumours?

Oh my god!  I hope this is true because it comes with my favorite piece of Fantasy terrain...the outhouse!  I've had many a game where the  objective was to get to the outhouse and hold it "til the bitter end"!  Essentially a wargame representing a lax day for food prep standards at Burning Man set in a grimdark fantasy world. 

Also that Watchtower is pretty nice! It would actually be interesting if this is the case.  That would be the first piece of army terrain that's garrisonable (I think).  Its also very fitting for the theme of the army.

[Dr Ben]

19 hours ago, Mcprowlington said:

I really hope not, i know freedom of choice to mix any unit with any allegiance ability sounds great and all, but this would just be horrendously boring. It'd turn the process of army building from a puzzle of pros and cons, to a scramble of just find the best traits and slap that keyword on your army. Then GW has to be especially careful not to make any of the traits too powerful because any KO, DoK, fyreslayer, etc army can grab that keyword instead of their own and with all of these armies given access to a choice of 7 new faction traits you can rest assured something is going to end up broken somewhere. And when it does, and one set of traits ends up being blatantly better than the rest you can be sure GW will respond by nerfing the best units CoS has access to rather than simply adjusting the trait, leaving that previously OP city balanced at the cost of the rest now being borderline unusable. 

I think its probable we will get the option to make our own free city with a choice of command trait and artefact and access to all the warscrolls. I can't think of any other allegiance where you are forced to take a sub-faction. This is always balanced by having the most powerful abilities tied to the sub-factions. So, I think we will get an enhanced version of the existing mixed order made available where you can choose from anything in the book, but you will probably be better off taking one of the city specific sub-factions in nearly all situations.

21 hours ago, Sethiris said:

I seriously doubt that to be honest. They will probably divide the city allegiances the same way they did in Firestorm, possibly with the exception of some factions being merged. So I doubt that you'll be able to field Wanderers within a Tempest's Eye or Phoenicium allegiance for instance. (except possibly as allies of course)

I'd also be surprised if they didn't stop you trying to get 'best of both' by going tempests eye and allying in a phoenix or whatever. Rules wise I anticipate this being like with the current Skaven arrangement where you can't ally pestilens into a skryre list etc.   

16 minutes ago, Kamose said:

Oh my god!  I hope this is true because it comes with my favorite piece of Fantasy terrain...the outhouse!  I've had many a game where the  objective was to get to the outhouse and hold it "til the bitter end"!  Essentially a wargame representing a lax day for food prep standards at Burning Man set in a grimdark fantasy world. 

Also that Watchtower is pretty nice! It would actually be interesting if this is the case.  That would be the first piece of army terrain that's garrisonable (I think).  Its also very fitting for the theme of the army.

Firstly, lol, I'm so playing that scenario. 

Secondly I agree. Interesting if it is true and you can garrison. Its got that nice balance between being quick and easy to paint tabletop standard (just base coat grey and drybrush!) or heavily customisable if you want to go the extra mile on the paint job or make your own (giant tree-house for living city, helipad for tempests eye etc. etc.)

[zilberfrid]

20 hours ago, Mcprowlington said:

I really hope not, i know freedom of choice to mix any unit with any allegiance ability sounds great and all, but this would just be horrendously boring. It'd turn the process of army building from a puzzle of pros and cons, to a scramble of just find the best traits and slap that keyword on your army. Then GW has to be especially careful not to make any of the traits too powerful because any KO, DoK, fyreslayer, etc army can grab that keyword instead of their own and with all of these armies given access to a choice of 7 new faction traits you can rest assured something is going to end up broken somewhere. And when it does, and one set of traits ends up being blatantly better than the rest you can be sure GW will respond by nerfing the best units CoS has access to rather than simply adjusting the trait, leaving that previously OP city balanced at the cost of the rest now being borderline unusable. 

I could see the core being either Freeguild or Dark elves, but the Disposessed, High elves and Wanderers are emanciated so far they should be able to choose better than Freeguild or Dark elves (depending on how Dark elves are split in the book, of course).

Too much soup will mean emanciated allegiance abilities.

Too little choice would make it hard to make an army with what you have.

I think High elves, Disposessed and Wanderers should have a choice of working with Dark elves or Freeguild, and Freeguild and some Dark elves also have a chance. Last rumour was splitting DE in two, let's say minor and major.

Wanderers: W

Disposessed: D

Phoenix temple: P

Minor Dark elf: de

Major Dark elf: DE

Freeguild: F

Options could be:

F+W+D

F+P+W

F+D+P

F+W+de

DE+de+W

DE+P+W

DE+D+De

[Double Misfire]

20 hours ago, Dr Ben said:

I can't think of any other allegiance where you are forced to take a sub-faction. 

Slaanesh, Legions of Nagash?

If there are seven sets of fixed Cities of Sigmar allegiance abilities to choose from, I can imagine Hammerhal's will be suitably vanilla enough to not warrant taking up room with a generic option.

[Dr Ben]

6 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Slaanesh, Legions of Nagash?

If there are seven sets of fixed Cities of Sigmar allegiance abilities to choose from, I can imagine Hammerhal's will be suitably vanilla enough to not warrant taking up room with a generic option.

Fair enough. It definitely could be that way. 

Slaanesh does force you into a sub-faction but I don't think it limits your choice of warscrolls dependent on sub-faction. So that probably doesn't parallel with Cities of Sigmar especially well. 

I think Legions of Nagash is a better parallel. Legions of Nagash effectively was grand alliance death when it was released. FEC was missing but all the other death sub-factions were included. Yes it does force you into a sub-faction, but the Grand Host of Nagash is basically your default option with a generically useful ability for most armies you might build*, and you can opt into the other more specifically focussed and restrictive sub-factions if you want. As you describe, Hammerhal could easily fulfil a similar role in CoS. It could easily be the effective default option with universally useful abilities which don't favour any particular units strongly (like the bravery buff it has in firestorm) and little to no restrictions on which units you take.

So I can also imagine that and I think that would work just fine. Its just not what I anticipate them doing. Partly because the stormhost/temple/enclave/skyport/lodge etc. system has been the most commonly occurring way of doing sub-factions. More importantly, the whole idea of 'build your own free city' is one of the best bits of the faction for me and plenty of other people. Forcing you to be 'like hallowheart, but not hallowheart' wouldn't ruin it, but it would detract from it. I hope/expect GW rules writers will be aware of this and write this part of the hobby into the book like the 40k team has done with the recent Space Marine codex (in the Warhammer community articles at least). 

*I mean legions innumerable extra regeneration not chosen guardians 1 extra morghast attack!

Edited August 25, 2019 by Dr Ben
adding additional thoughts