Daughters of Khaine Witches and Sisters

[Overread]

A Debate and discussion on the use of Sisters of Slaughters and Witch Aelves; their pros, cons, comparison and equipment. 

 

So I figured this would warrant its own thread since its a topic that is likely to come up a fair few times since the two basic troop types for Daughters of Khaine can appear quite similar in stats and yet each has their own niche on the tabletop. So this thread is to help people sort the two from each other; when its best to use one over the other; what to equip them with (blades or bucklers) as well as if you take full command or not; squad sizes etc....

This to to help this selection of common questions be focused in a single thread for reference instead of being lost within the general chatter of the main Daughters Thread.

[DJMoose]

I have not used Sisters of Slaughter, so I cannot comment on their effectiveness vs Witch Elves.  However, I can tell you it is an absolute must to keep a Hornblower and a Standard Bearer in both units.  Hornblower lets you run and charge, and with their high movement characteristic you could easily be in combat turn one if you wanted.  Standard Bearers are super helpful as well, as if you cannot put Witchbrew or our many other ways of ignoring battleshock on a unit, you can roll two dice and discard the highest.  Fantastic.

I personally run Witches in 30 elf blobs (with full command) with knives in both hands, because I will typically have a hag queen nearby to a) give the unit the benefits of Witchbrew, but also b) give each Witch Elf 4 attacks instead of just 3 with a pair of knives. 

Your enemy will have to fail saves eventually. ?

[Overread]

Considering that adding hornblowers and standards has no effect on the units point cost nor attack ability, ergo there's no penalty for taking them; I think that the issue with them isn't so much should you take them, but how you choose to model them. Ergo one full command every 10, 20 or 30 models. 

[DJMoose]

2 minutes ago, Overread said:

Considering that adding hornblowers and standards has no effect on the units point cost nor attack ability, ergo there's no penalty for taking them; I think that the issue with them isn't so much should you take them, but how you choose to model them. Ergo one full command every 10, 20 or 30 models. 

In that regard, I took the lazy route and did 1 set of command for each big blob.  More than that is too many long annoying banners to deal with IMHO.

[InSaint]

Here you go, I tested both WA and SoS from some recent games.

1. Placement of models in close-combat
   • Witch Alves with Dual Daggers - Because they are 25mm and 1" attack, usually I get to squeeze between 4 - 10 (2 in 2 row/5 in 2 rows) in contact upon 3" pile-in. This works out to around min 16- max 40 attacks.
   • Sisters of Slaughter with Whip and Dagger - Also on 25mm but they can pile-in 6" and have a 2" 2 attack from the whip. I get to squeeze between 9-18 ( 3 in 2 rows/5 in 3 rows and 3 loose ones here about). This works out to around 6 (daggers) + 18 (whips) = min 24 attack to 10 (daggers) + 36 (whips ) = max 46 attacks. 
   • Sisters of Slaughter can instantly surround and trap enemy models w/o fly in close-combat with their 6" pile-in. But most enemies  just die or commit suicide (because they failed battle-shock and have nowhere to run) upon meeting them anyway. 
2. Bladed Bucklers - Looks great on paper but from several gameplay, I think is quite lackluster for the following reasons.
   • Sisters of Slaughter have 6" threat radius. Because of how combat phase works (i.e Players take turn for units to fight), you can effectively "deny" your opponent a turn of hitting your Sisters of Slaughter by putting them 4" away. This makes your Bucklers an rather inefficient choice with good placement.
   • Rending is quite common so +1 save in close combat from bucklers are meh...
   • Another take is if you run a full squad of 30 and buff them with 5+ saves (cauldron) and 5+ ignore wounds re-roll (Hagg Nar + Blessing of Khaine), they are already as tough as hell. They are immune to battleshock with WitchBrew so even if you lose like 15 in a turn to combat, they will never run and will likely just delete anything off the board the next turn. 
   • Your strategy as DoK is to hit them so hard they don't get a chance to retaliate. So just go all out with offensive. Even the DoK Command Abilities allows your unit to fight in the Hero Phase w/o fear of retaliation.
   • If you want Mortal Wounds, take Blood Sisters.
3. Squad Size
   • For <30 Models, take WA as they 20pts cheaper as compared to SoS.
   • At Max squad size, you can consider either WA or SoS.
   • If you like to pay to win games, take 2 maximum squad size. 60 models that can move+run+charge+delete is just hilarious.
4. Don't throw them to 2/3+ re-roll 1s saves enemy
   • This is a job for Blood Sisters to Mortal Combat high saves enemy for maximum fatality

 

[sorokyl]

20 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

In that regard, I took the lazy route and did 1 set of command for each big blob.  More than that is too many long annoying banners to deal with IMHO.

I prefer to put as many command as bits I have. Usually  musicians and standard bearers you are allowed however many, and for the leader you just need to make it clear which one leads a large group (sometimes I  will use a fancier base with the model slightly elevated above the other "leaders".  The benefit of this is, you can split up the unit if you need, maybe for a smaller list or just an odd unit for objective grabbing or something. 

[DJMoose]

6 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

I prefer to put as many command as bits I have. Usually  musicians and standard bearers you are allowed however many, and for the leader you just need to make it clear which one leads a large group (sometimes I  will use a fancier base with the model slightly elevated above the other "leaders".  The benefit of this is, you can split up the unit if you need, maybe for a smaller list or just an odd unit for objective grabbing or something. 

*Makes an entire unit of Witch Elf standard bearers*

What?  Even the Daughters of Khaine need flag-waving cheerleaders.

[Bosmer Nightblade]

2 hours ago, InSaint said:

Sisters of Slaughter can instantly surround and trap enemy models w/o fly in close-combat with their 6" pile-in. But most enemies  just die or commit suicide (because they failed battle-shock and have nowhere to run) upon meeting them anyway.

How are you doing this? Pile in must be towards the closest enemy model, so their front rank is pretty much going to be closest regardless of whether you can get your models in. You'll have a few of your models in and then the rest just pressing in behind because they can't get past your own models to reach the one your front line is attacking.

[InSaint]

7 hours ago, Bosmer Nightblade said:

How are you doing this? Pile in must be towards the closest enemy model, so their front rank is pretty much going to be closest regardless of whether you can get your models in. You'll have a few of your models in and then the rest just pressing in behind because they can't get past your own models to reach the one your front line is attacking.

More applicable for lone Hero models or small squad size.

PILING IN - "Each model must finish its pile-in move at least as close to the nearest enemy model as it was at the start of the move."

So yes, with 6" pile-in you can actually move around and position your SoS to be behind the same enemy model which you were nearest to at the start of the move. I also did recall reading (or hearing) somewhere in AOS 2 that you can slide around the enemy model for pile-in.

 

 

[sorokyl]

Relevant to SoS from the new rules FAQ:

Q: If an ability allows a unit to pile in more than the standard 3", can the unit pile in and attack in the combat phase if it is more than 3" from the enemy?
A: No, unless the ability specifically states otherwise.

So, 1 sister of slaughter has to be within 3" in order to select the unit to pile in 6"

[Lord_of_Khaine]

9 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

Relevant to SoS from the new rules FAQ:

Q: If an ability allows a unit to pile in more than the standard 3", can the unit pile in and attack in the combat phase if it is more than 3" from the enemy?
A: No, unless the ability specifically states otherwise.

So, 1 sister of slaughter has to be within 3" in order to select the unit to pile in 6"

The ability specifically states otherwise though.  Nullifying that ruling, as they have states specific rules override core rules.  At least how that is I interpret it

[Overread]

The rule clarification basically says that unless the special rule say the unit can, then the unit can't pile in unless its within the standard 3inches of an enemy model; even if that units pile-in distance is greater than 3 inches. 

It's one of those rulings that likely is pretty much a moot point since I suspect any ability that grants a greater pile-in move distance is also going to permit the unit to use that full distance within the rule (otherwise granting the unit a greater pile in move distance would be rather pointless). 

 

 

 

[Lucentia]

Yhetees have a 6" pile in but with no exception for being outside of 3", in fact I think SoS might be the first unit to have that exception written in?  Hopefully it gets added to other units with an increased pile in move, it's a fun little gimmick.

[sorokyl]

My bad guys, I should have reread the warscroll before posting!  

[Lemondish]

On 6/26/2018 at 10:54 PM, InSaint said:

More applicable for lone Hero models or small squad size.

PILING IN - "Each model must finish its pile-in move at least as close to the nearest enemy model as it was at the start of the move."

So yes, with 6" pile-in you can actually move around and position your SoS to be behind the same enemy model which you were nearest to at the start of the move. I also did recall reading (or hearing) somewhere in AOS 2 that you can slide around the enemy model for pile-in.

 

 

You actually heard it in your own comment

Being able to slide around the base of the enemy model is what the addition of the words "at least" to the pile in rule has now allowed. Really subtle wording change with a huge impact.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

So I'd just like to revive this discussion as I feel it kind of derailed into rules clarification without really getting to the meat and potatoes of SoS vs WA, which as a prospective Daughters of Khaine player (a matter of when at this point, not if) I'm curious to know which Witch works better and in which situations. These are not dollar-cheap Battleline units after all. 

To hopefully guide the discussion, I'd like to posit some questions by focusing on the positives of each weapons load out: 

Which situations/armies would you use a Dagger/Shield  or Whip/Shield in/against? 

Which situations/armies would you use a Dagger/Dagger or Whip/Dagger in/against? 

How do you buff them? Which temples work best? 

Obviously the rules allow you to make sneaky tanks with a Cauldron-dwelling Hagg Nar Buckler unit, but is their offensive capability so drastically reduced for it to be worth it? 

Looking over things, I feel like throwing one or two 10-witch Hagg nar Temple units in with Bucklers would make them good Cauldron chaff and backfield objective holders. While 20-30 Hagg nar and Draichi Ganeth blobs would do better to focus purely on offense while being chased by a Hag Queen oiling them up with Witch Brew (there's an image for you). 

[Kramer]

For me I played test games with bucklers and the always felt meh. At best. The mortal wound ability on a unit of thirty wounds only averages out at  +- 5 times. It’s a bit more due to actually making saves but only against melee. So that’s not worth losing that extra 1” attack per model. 

So the other argument is a small 10/20 squad Witch elves with bucklers for objective holders (cheaper in points). But in AoS 2 almost every scenario is you hold an objective until taken. So if I walk past it. It’s mine and I can move on if I want. So I feel less of a need for a static unit than before. (Which should have been the blood stalkers. My khaine, i love those models but they are far off from being as good game wise as they look) 

So in the end I rather focus on the strengths  and that’s massive amounts of attacks not a situational extra save with an even rarer ability. 

I have to say though we usually play between 1k and 1,5K so that might skew things a bit. But last games I took 30 witches and 20 sisters and it’s always one of those who is the star of the show but it’s close. 

Had a great moment with the sisters against an ogor player where their 6” pile in meant so many more attacks than he expected (killing the tyrant) which also saved me about 4” in getting closer to his back objective. That ability works a treat against big models/bases and cheeky standing outside of 3”. But is it definitely worth the extra points? 

I think the difference is so situational that I would always take one of both. But if you push me... I would favour the Witch elf’s because of the extra attack near a hero. It magnifies with other buffs like mind razor and that’s where we really shine. 

It’s also the reason I send my sisters off a bit less supported but always keep at least a hag queen nearby the witches and sometimes two as a backup.  

[Thomas Lyons]

I'm a fan of the shields, especially when running Hagg Nar, since you your units will survive longer (from the ward save), which gives them a longer opportunity to the kick back mortals.  Every point of save is important in a world with no +1 save Mystic shield.  On the contrary, at least on WE, attacks are plentiful.  Ironically, the way the ability are worded, you get to role to kick back mortals even if their rend negates your armor.  

That said, I won't run only shields but a mix of shields and no shields on my 30 blocks.

[Overread]

@Thomas Lyons you raise a very good point - we are so used to seeing it all bucklers or all blades that we forget you can equip both in the same unit. I don't think anyone has really done or looked into the maths for that and what a good spread is for the unit. 

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

@Thomas Lyons you raise a very good point - we are so used to seeing it all bucklers or all blades that we forget you can equip both in the same unit. I don't think anyone has really done or looked into the maths for that and what a good spread is for the unit. 

I don't think so.  It says some units, not some witches in the warscroll.

Some units use knives

Some units user bucklers

No mixing and matching within a unit

Edit: If you could mix and match, which you can't, the optimal number of buckler witches in a unit would always be 1 since units, not models, make saving throws.  

[DantePQ]

I have used all kind of combinations and Sister of Slaughtered are amazing with their extra pile in. Also shields are great on Witches but mainly in HaggNarr - 30 4+ 5++ Witches that have 3 attacks each is a tough unit to crack or move out of objective. Also you can easily make it much better by using one or more extra buffs like : Mystic Shield, Martyr's Sacrifice, Blessing of Khaine.

 

[Thomas Lyons]

2 hours ago, Overread said:

@Thomas Lyons you raise a very good point - we are so used to seeing it all bucklers or all blades that we forget you can equip both in the same unit. I don't think anyone has really done or looked into the maths for that and what a good spread is for the unit. 

To be clear, I was talking about having separate blocks of 30 equipped with shields and dual daggers.  I normally run three blocks of 30, so I normally run two units of shields and one of dual blades.  

I didn't mean to imply you can mix them within the same unit, as you are not able to with how they are currently worded.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

In the time since I posed my last question, I realized that the Witches (and SoS) are not unlike the Khorne Bloodreavers which I'm used to fielding, albeit with even better movement mechanics and an additional save built in. Once I put that together, I recognized the potential of Dagger/Dagger Witches, which I had previously been apprehensive of. 

That being said, I think I plan on doing a 30 block of Dagger/Dagger Witches and another 30 of Whip/Buckler Sisters. Shield and Sword depending on the situation. I may have to talk my wallet out of the hiding place it's bound to crawl into, though. 

[Overread]

Note if I've gotten any of the maths wrong please do say  

Note that for this test I have assumed that all 30 models in the unit have gotten into close combat range. In addition I've not applied any buffs, nor even the standard +1 to attack for being within 8 inches of a leader. These are the bottom-line stats for the unit without any modifiers to make it simpler to compare the two equipment options of Bucklers or Duel Blades. 

30 Witch Aelves twinblades (with leader bonus to hit) 
To Hit ((4/6*29)+5/6)*3 = 60.49 
To Wound 3/6*60.49 = 30.245 

30 Witch Aelves twinblades (without leader bonus to hit) 
To Hit (4/6*30)*3 = 60 
To Wound 3/6*60 = 30 

First up note that at this scale of attacks the +1 to hit from the leader is a very marginal difference if any. Of course in real world situations the leader is often going to help out more so than not; however as its only a bonus to hit the effect can be more muted than those leaders which give an extra attack. So don't be too afraid to lose the leader. 

30 Witch Aelves with bucklers base attacks 
To Hit ((4/6*29)+5/6)*2 = 40.33 
To Wound 3/6*40.33 = 20.16 

Mortal Wounds generated based on wounds made against Witch Aelves with bucklers 
5 wounds: 1/6*5 = 0.83 
10 wounds: 1/6*10 = 1.67 
20 wounds: 1/6*20 = 3.33 
30 wounds: 1/6*30 = 5 
40 wounds: 1/6*40 = 6.67 
60 wounds: 1/6*60 = 10 

Saves difference: Duel Blades (1/6) - Bucklers (2/6) 
5 wounds: 0.83 = 1.67 
10 wounds: 1.67 = 3.33 
20 wounds: 3.33 = 6.67 
30 wounds: 5 = 10 
40 wounds: 6.67 = 13.33 

So what does this all show. Well first up it shows that Witch aelves with duel blades are typically going to generate more attacks than those with bucklers until those with bucklers are taking upward of 60 attacks against them. Of course we have to consider that all the wounds generated by the bucklers are mortal wounds, so they are more guaranteed than regular wounds. However even if you consider them double their value you've still got to take 20 hits, or there about, to generate a number of wounds greater than regular witches with twinblades. 

However if we then look at saves we can see that as the number of wounds caused against the unit grows, the number saved from the buckler (compared to if it were duel blades) becomes quite significant. 

My take on this is that Witch Aelves with duel blades are ideal for attacking any "softer" target with a 5+ or 6+ save where they expect to deal the majority of the damage in their first round of combat. Furthermore they are best when they will recieve fewer attacks against them - either because the target cannot generate many attacks, and/or because their first wave of attacks removes a significant number of the enemy 

Meanwhile Witch Aelves with bucklers are far better to charge at a target with a better save, but which is also capable of making a significant return series of attacks; or to throw them into the pathway of a unit likely to charge, which again has a high number of attacks. Any high attack, low model count unit would be an ideal target for them since the mortal wounds have a greater chance of having a significant effect on the attacker when it is their turn to attack. 

They both deal a lot of attacks and have significant potential, but they are slightly different in how they can best be used. Remember the bonus of +1 attack if in range of a leader hasn't been included here, but ideally you should be keeping queens up close to witches for that bonus and for applying buffs. 



Sisters of Slaughter. 
The stats above also work the same for Sisters of Slaughter, however the big difference is that Sisters of Slaughter have a 2inch reach on 2 of their attacks (whips). This increase their chance of dealing damage as a group since even when bunched up, more of them should always be able to engage compared to if witch aleves had been used. Sisters also have a greater pile range and movement, which gives them a distinct bonus, again, on getting as many of their unit into combat at once. 
Again the buckler sisters are more durable and actually want more attacks made against them to show their mortal wound generating potential. 




Overall its interesting to see that whilst both bucklers and daggers still keep the units in the general same role, there is enough of a divide that it can be tactically advantageous to use one over the other in specific situations.

 

 

Edit: A repeat of the study done this time with 10 man units. Note that the wounds caused against remains the same stats so those can be reused without being repeated 

10 Witch Aelves twinblades (with leader bonus to hit) 
To Hit ((4/6*9)+5/6)*3 = 20.5 
To Wound 3/6*20.5 = 10.25 

10 Witch Aelves twinblades (without leader bonus to hit) 
To Hit (4/6*10)*3 = 20 
To Wound 3/6*20 = 10 

10 Witch Aelves with bucklers base attacks 
To Hit ((4/6*19)+5/6)*2 = 6.83 
To Wound 3/6*6.83 = 3.41 


Now here we see something interesting, bucklers are at a significant disadvantage in the number of potential wounds they can cause. Whilst the bucklers are going to keep them alive longer, their damage dealing is distinctly reduced unless they take a lot of hits (to generate more buckler potential mortal wounds). Remembering that that these numbers only go into dealing out damage and don't include the opponent rolling to save, 3 wounds isn't much at all, and taking a lot of wounds to generate potential mortal wounds from the bucklers is a very high risk that the unit could be crippled or wiped out. 
Whilst the duel daggers also suffers being weaker at only 10 models, it can at least act more like a glass cannon and dish out at least 10 wounds (more if buffed of course). That increases the chances for them causing the first losses on the enemy instead of them being torn apart. 

Whilst at 30 warrior strong units I think there is viability in either build, at 10 man strong (minimum) there is a stronger bias to go for duel blades and treat them as a pure glass cannon - ergo vulnerable but strong if they strike first. Bucklers add to survivability, but at the same time the unit has't got the bodies(wounds) nor save to be a tarpit and hold the enemy, nor is it dishing out much damage to make it a proper threat.

[InSaint]

Witch Aelves with Bucklers also generate more attacks from saved Witches on subsequent phases.

Round 1a: Enemy alpha-strike, Combat phase Witch Aelves retaliate (1)

Round 1b: Hero Phase CP Orgy of Slaughter (2) and Combat phase Witch Aelves fight first (3)

Take for example a block of Witch Aelves suffered 20 wounds and have to make their necessary armor saves. We shall disregard the ignore wounds for simplicity.

4+ = 10 failed saves

5+ = 13 failed saves

Approx. 3 Witch Aelves will have survived and go on to attack 3 times each. 

 

The more experienced players will always meatshield or alphastike your Witch Aelves knowing the pain they can cause if they pull off a charge. So sometimes it works to bait your opponent into charging you and retaliating. Better still, have 10 Witch Aelves with dual-daggers nearby to counter-charge.