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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

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1 hour ago, Future said:

From a business stand point giving seraphon a new battle tone makes a lot of sense. We have a ton of models, release a new battletome and they will sell a bunch of dinos. It would take very little work because we have rules (in ghb 2017, 2018). It’s definitely low hanging fruit for gw.

5

All of the rules exist, you are just asking for them to be printed in one place.  Does it really makes sense? How many people would buy a Seraphon army today, but aren't buying it just because the rules are spread in a few places (Battletome, GHB, FAQ, etc)    I would think not many.  GHB is kind of required anyway, and FAQ is required for every army.     A new battletome for Seraphon is "nice to have" , just like most of the other existing battletomes, I think they may wait until they have additional content (models) for these armies, beyond just a piece of terrain

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5 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

All of the rules exist, you are just asking for them to be printed in one place.  Does it really makes sense? How many people would buy a Seraphon army today, but aren't buying it just because the rules are spread in a few places (Battletome, GHB, FAQ, etc)    I would think not many.  GHB is kind of required anyway, and FAQ is required for every army.     A new battletome for Seraphon is "nice to have" , just like most of the other existing battletomes, I think they may wait until they have additional content (models) for these armies, beyond just a piece of terrain

I would imagine it would be an easy win, as @Future mentioned. Put out a new book, add Spell Lore, update some warscrolls for underutilized things (Stegadons, Saurus Knights, Carnosaurs), maybe update/add Battalions, and then people will use it as an excuse to start a new army. Happens all the time. Now yes, they could do this stuff in a GHB, but honestly just printing a new Battletome with no new models is relatively easy, doesn't disrupt other production cycles, and is a quick boost for AoS. 

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On the other hand it may be bad PR to give a second Battletome to a decent army, especially for Order who still have a massive amount of Battletomeless armies (4 of which have GHB Allegiances). Especially since Seraphon was one of the few lucky non Death non Chaos armies to gain summoning for 2.0.

I'm not saying Free People or Dispossessed will get their own standalone BT, if they're lucky a Free City-like soup BT would occur.

And also keep in mind other than GHB updates+tweaks, only Khorne and Stormcast have gotten a 2nd Battletome (and Stomcast have gotten 3). Plus Order has gotten 3 Battletomes this year alone (well one is stormcast).

 

THAT BEING SAID I think just a book update while nice, would actually seem a bit wasted for Seraphon. Given how they're Order Daemons and somewhat important to AoS (they are highlighted in the starter magazine in the Order section) they should definitely have a bit more oomf for an update. Maybe a proper "Greater Daemon" (plastic Dread Saurian? Giant Dinosaur with magic swords and clubs?) alongside plasticfication of many units would be nice, especially since unfortunately they have to stick with the ugly dated 6th edition sculpts until the heat death of the universe (uuuggg those Cold Ones......)

 

Basically I think a book only+endless spell update would be bad since 1. other [legacy or not] armies needing it more ( example: skaven are seriously all but confirmed, just a matter of when) and 2.  seemingly being a bit lazy for supposedly an important AoS faction that sort of suffers a bit on the theme (repainted dinosaurs=daemons!).

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't get another book! But if GW announced the next Order book was Seraphon with just a rules update+spells (as reference similar to BoC so more items, spell lores, etc) IMO it would seem not a good move. Maybe 2nd book assuming no models would be more acceptable.

But if there was a new model overhaul, that'd be a different story.

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On 11/6/2018 at 11:17 AM, sorokyl said:

All of the rules exist, you are just asking for them to be printed in one place.  Does it really makes sense? How many people would buy a Seraphon army today, but aren't buying it just because the rules are spread in a few places (Battletome, GHB, FAQ, etc)    I would think not many.  GHB is kind of required anyway, and FAQ is required for every army.     A new battletome for Seraphon is "nice to have" , just like most of the other existing battletomes, I think they may wait until they have additional content (models) for these armies, beyond just a piece of terrain

Turns out this is a valid problem and bigger than you would think. I think what happens is dinosaurs are very popular and so new players will see those models and say, HELL YES. After that they just get lost in the sauce with the disjoint rules. With such a big and popular range I would argue getting a unified rule set might be more important than it is with other factions. Otherwise these types of customers who aren't willing to post online might likely give up and just play a different system.

 

Just saw this post on reddit today -

image.png.8d822d3d2f680018ceb60b1039999619.png

 

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2 hours ago, Future said:

Turns out this is a valid problem and bigger than you would think. I think what happens is dinosaurs are very popular and so new players will see those models and say, HELL YES. After that they just get lost in the sauce with the disjoint rules. With such a big and popular range I would argue getting a unified rule set might be more important than it is with other factions. Otherwise these types of customers who aren't willing to post online might likely give up and just play a different system.

 

To be fair even chaos has that issue. I remember when every 2 weeks someone would get confused about Khorne Bloodbound vs Daemons of Khorne vs Blades of Khorne vs Slaves to Darkness with Khorne Marks vs "Khorne"

 

And lets not forget Skaven who still dont have a book (but heavily hinted they will eventually) who are scattered between 1 heavily outdated book (and also the nurgle allegiance), 1 GHB allegiance that doesn't have information on Skyre battalions since thats somewhere else, 2 other clans that are allegianceless, the generic verminus clan with clanrats, and the Masterclan who are only made up of heroes (I sure love factions that have no units!).

 

So it's not just a seraphon thing, its a huge AoS thing that GW still hasn't really solved.

 

On 11/6/2018 at 3:49 PM, DINOSTAR said:

How dare you call our cold ones ugly

But GW teased us, TEASED US!

 

gw-99800299005.jpg

Edited by kenshin620

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7 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

To be fair even chaos has that issue. I remember when every 2 weeks someone would get confused about Khorne Bloodbound vs Daemons of Khorne vs Blades of Khorne vs Slaves to Darkness with Khorne Marks vs "Khorne"

 

And lets not forget Skaven who still dont have a book (but heavily hinted they will eventually) who are scattered between 1 heavily outdated book (and also the nurgle allegiance), 1 GHB allegiance that doesn't have information on Skyre battalions since thats somewhere else, 2 other clans that are allegianceless, the generic verminus clan with clanrats, and the Masterclan who are only made up of heroes (I sure love factions that have no units!).

 

So it's not just a seraphon thing, its a huge AoS thing that GW still hasn't really solved.

 

But GW teased us, TEASED US!

 

gw-99800299005.jpg

What do you mean teased us and which awesome miniature is this ? The Dark elf one right ?

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6 hours ago, Seraphage said:

What do you mean teased us and which awesome miniature is this ? The Dark elf one right ?

No thats a stand alone resin Cold One released for Storm of Magic/8th edition (when you could technically field riderless monsters, though not sure how many people did that). One difference between that and the plastic elf ones is the lack of horns on the head/nose area.

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For sure it’s an AoS problem. What I meant by dinosaurs were cool is that to someone who’s never seen the game and doesn’t know what a skaven is they would find a dinosaur to be immediately familiar. 

 

I got got into the game just through painting things and my things to paint were just mounted models and I mostly used them for dnd. So I can attest quite a few mounted things are janky as well, not just the cold one.

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So, I want to see if someone can help me with my army.  I'm building a 2000 point Seraphon army.  It's not meant for competition... just for fun.  That said, it'd be nice to win as many as I lose.  Right now, I don't have really any summoning going on as I've been working on other AoS projects.  And, I have put the money other places.  But, seeing the Christmas box set for Seraphon and the $210 savings pulled me back in pretty quickly as I love and/or really want some of the models available in that box. 

My current army including the battalions I use to get it to the 2000 point mark.  While I like the Shadowstrike Starhost, I'm not sure the Firelance Starhost is really worthwhile.  I, also, know that there isn't any summoning engine in this army while summoning is one of this army's strengths.

Below is my current list, and I was wondering if anyone could help me improve the army with what's in the Christmas Seraphon box set.  I would greatly appreciate it.

Spoiler

AoS Seraphon (Age of Sigmar) [2000]

  • **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Seraphon) [2000]

    • Leader

      • Engine of the Gods [220]

    • Behemoth

      • Troglodon [160]

    • Artillery

      • Razordons [40]

        Selections: Razordons

    • Battleline

      • Saurus Warriors [200]

        Selections: 2x 10 Saurus Warriors, Celestite Spear, Stardrake Icon, Wardrum

    • Other

      • Skink Handlers [40]

        Selections: 3 Skink Handlers

    • Battalion

      • Battalion: Firelance Starhost [660]

        • Saurus Knights

          Selections: 5 Saurus Knights, Celestite Lance, Stardrake Icon, Wardrum

        • Saurus Knights

          Selections: 5 Saurus Knights, Celestite Lance, Stardrake Icon, Wardrum

        • Saurus Knights

          Selections: 5 Saurus Knights, Celestite Lance

        • Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur

          Selections: Celestite Greatblade

      • Battalion: Shadowstrike Starhost [620]

        Selections: Skink Starpriest

        • Skinks

          Selections: 2x 10 Skinks, Boltspitters and Moonstone Clubs

        • Skinks

          Selections: 2x 10 Skinks, Meteoric Javelins and Star-bucklers

        • Terradon Riders

          Selections: 3 Terradon Riders, Starstrike Javelin

    • Allegiance

      • Allegiance

        Selections: Allegiance: Seraphon

    • Game Options

      • Game Type

        Selections: 2000 - Battlehost

    • Realm of Origin

      • Realm of Origin

        Selections: Origin: Aqshy

    • Malign Sorcery

      • Endless Spells [60]

        Selections: Chronomatic Cogs

Here's the breakdown of the Seraphon Christmas box from Spikey Bits

Spoiler

Bastiladon $60
Carnosaur $85
Terradon $60
Skinks $35
Ripperdactyl x2 Kits $60 (120 total)
Skink Priest $20

Total Cost: $380
Total Savings: $210

Thanks in advance!

SG

Edited by ServiceGames

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I've tried to make firelance work a lot. It just isn't worth the points. Here is the thing I don't run a summoning army at all and it still wrecks but I do have summoning. A slann and astrolith bearer are just so strong no matter what kind of list you run that summoning is icing on the cake. Nothing like stopping someone from dropping on you by filling the 9 inch gaps with more skinks.

 

Cogs are great, both options are amazing for us. Terradons are great. Engine of the gods... people LOVE it. I don't but its a great unit. 

 

Carnosaur is amazing for 240 points I don't know why we don't see more of them, seriously. I've deleted units of witch elves between the attacks, battleshock tests, and roar. If you are going to run saurus to buff the scarvet is good otherwise the old blood is better in my opinion.

 

Trog is in a bad spot but I almost always take one in a fun game, I love that model.

 

Over all it should be a fun casual list. I think the biggest problem you will see is damage. You don't really need knights, warriors, and skinks on the same board. Skinks can hold objectives and chaff (best chaff in the game). Warriors and knights really need some focused saurus synergy. 

------------------------------------------

My opinion on knights and warriors:

I've tried really hard to make saurus lists work but I just haven't had luck. The best bet I've had a is a 40 block of warriors, 30 block, 10 skinks. From here you run a carno (scarvet) and make them pick which threat to deal with. The problem is is there better damage hordes AND more survivable hordes so you really won't win out with a list like this. 

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12 minutes ago, Future said:

My opinion on knights and warriors:

I've tried really hard to make saurus lists work but I just haven't had luck. The best bet I've had a is a 40 block of warriors, 30 block, 10 skinks. From here you run a carno (scarvet) and make them pick which threat to deal with. The problem is is there better damage hordes AND more survivable hordes so you really won't win out with a list like this. 

Based on what comes with the Christmas Battleforce box for Seraphon, what changes would you make (add or remove) for my army to be more fun... to be more solid?

Thanks in advance!

SG

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With engine of the gods I would summon in the skinks you have instead of starting them on the field.

 

If you are going to run a firelance I would also take the Dracothion's Tail. Since you don't have a slann I would just drop firelance. You can still take the knights and run them as fast objective grabbers.

 

I would run the units as bigger clumps for knights 1x10, 1x5. Warriors 1x20. The logic I have here is that with a carno to buff them you want to ensure enough of them survive to be buffed effectively. Seraphon don't have any bad units and you can have loads of fun with that list.

 

If you enjoy it my next add ons would be a slann + astrolith in that order. From there you can look at other styles of play or bolster a melee focused style. Since you are looking at battalions this is a really good guide, http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/a-guide-to-seraphon-battalions-ghb2017.20208/

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40 minutes ago, Future said:

With engine of the gods I would summon in the skinks you have instead of starting them on the field.

 

If you are going to run a firelance I would also take the Dracothion's Tail. Since you don't have a slann I would just drop firelance. You can still take the knights and run them as fast objective grabbers.

 

I would run the units as bigger clumps for knights 1x10, 1x5. Warriors 1x20. The logic I have here is that with a carno to buff them you want to ensure enough of them survive to be buffed effectively. Seraphon don't have any bad units and you can have loads of fun with that list.

 

If you enjoy it my next add ons would be a slann + astrolith in that order. From there you can look at other styles of play or bolster a melee focused style. Since you are looking at battalions this is a really good guide, http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/a-guide-to-seraphon-battalions-ghb2017.20208/

Thank you for all of the info!

SG

EDIT: For the point cost, would you recommend Lord Kroak or Slann Starmaster?  Thanks in advance

Edited by ServiceGames

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Slann all day. Kroak is only worth it if you are using his unique spells. If you are taking endless spells or summoning you aren’t making enough use of Kroak to justify the extra points.

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Just now, Future said:

Slann all day. Kroak is only worth it if you are using his unique spells. If you are taking endless spells or summoning you aren’t making enough use of Kroak to justify the extra points.

Excellent!  Thank you again for your help!

SG

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On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 4:46 PM, Future said:

Turns out this is a valid problem and bigger than you would think. I think what happens is dinosaurs are very popular and so new players will see those models and say, HELL YES. After that they just get lost in the sauce with the disjoint rules. With such a big and popular range I would argue getting a unified rule set might be more important than it is with other factions. Otherwise these types of customers who aren't willing to post online might likely give up and just play a different system.

 

we see something similar a lot in our local GW Store.  The Seraphon start collecting always draws the attraction of new people, but for some odd reason GW has almost zero seraphon models stocked in store, so when they look at what else goes with the army they see nothing.  Of course they get the pitch you can order on this website...but usually they put it down and go with something else. 

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13 minutes ago, chord said:

we see something similar a lot in our local GW Store.  The Seraphon start collecting always draws the attraction of new people, but for some odd reason GW has almost zero seraphon models stocked in store, so when they look at what else goes with the army they see nothing.  Of course they get the pitch you can order on this website...but usually they put it down and go with something else. 

I actually have had a talk with my local GW's manager about that particular issue.  I asked why he had nothing Necromunda related and no boxes of Chaos Space Marines (only the Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines box).  From what I gather, GW is being far pickier than it used to be about what models get shipped to each GW store.  If something doesn't take off at a GW store, you'll never see it at GW.  This, again, happened with both Necromunda (like anything related to it... they have nothing Necromunda at my local GW) and Chaos Space Marines at my local GW.

I'm pretty sure that the Seraphon Start Collecting box is the best value of all of the Start Collecting boxes (40K or AoS), so it would make sense that a lot of people would be very interested in it.  But, if the additional Seraphon models (warriors, skinks, knights, guard, bastiladon, etc.) just didn't sell well, then regardless of how many Start Collecting boxes sell, they probably won't ship any boxes of other Seraphon models to your store again (unless people from that store specifically begin ordering a lot of them through the store's computer).

SG

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Store are small, GW has a lot of models.  A lot of people get models second hand, or just have stuff since they have played the hobby so long.  It doesn't make much sense to have 15 year old models on the shelf instead of new stuff. Every time a new box comes out, something old has to leave the shelf.  

 

GW doesn't care which SC box you go with. If you want to play seraphon you can, but you have to weborder stuff. Easy. 

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2 hours ago, sorokyl said:

Store are small, GW has a lot of models.  A lot of people get models second hand, or just have stuff since they have played the hobby so long.  It doesn't make much sense to have 15 year old models on the shelf instead of new stuff. Every time a new box comes out, something old has to leave the shelf.  

 

GW doesn't care which SC box you go with. If you want to play seraphon you can, but you have to weborder stuff. Easy. 

I could very well be mistaken, so I apologize if I am.  But, I'm pretty sure say... last year, all GW's were more-or-less identical in what they carried and where they carried it.  Granted, they couldn't all be exactly identical as store sizes varied.  But, I am pretty sure they all carried the same amount of each model, models, boxed games, etc.  I think it was only recently (maybe toward the beginning of this year) that they started tailoring their stock per store.  So, if a given store doesn't sell a lot of a certain model, they don't get any more of that model.  If sales of that model or those models pick up, they will get more of them.

You are correct that GW has limited stock space and does keep coming out with new boxes, boxed games, and models all the time.  But, this time last year, you may have been able to walk into your local GW and buy an entire Seraphon army with everything but resin and finecast models available in the store.  This year, however, if those same models didn't sell well last year, then your local store wouldn't be sent more stock.  They would be sent more stock on what does sell well so that it would be available in the store.

So, while you are correct, I do believe that GW is drastically changing the way that they are stocking their stores as well (which can make a huge difference from location to location as to what each store has in stock).

SG

EDIT: As a quick example, I'm sure there are several GW stores all over the US that have Necromunda games going on every day.  There may even be some that have Necromunda leagues or tournaments.  And, I'm sure they have core sets, books, and gangs in stock.  That said, since Necromunda didn't take off at all at my local GW, there is literally not a single sign that N17 even exists... not one gang, not one book, not one core set... nothing.

Edited by ServiceGames
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OK, so I updated my list  Suggestions and Constructive Criticism welcome

Spoiler

I'll be using my Engine of the Gods to summon three units of 20 Skinks each

AoS Seraphon (Age of Sigmar) [1990]

  • **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Seraphon) [1990]

    • Leader

      • Engine of the Gods [220]

      • Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur [260]

        Selections: General

      • Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur [240]

        Selections: Celestite Greatblade

    • Behemoth

      • Bastiladon [280]

        Selections: Solar Engine

    • Battleline

      • Saurus Knights [180]

        Selections: 2x 5 Saurus Knights, Celestite Lance, Stardrake Icon, Wardrum

      • Saurus Knights [90]

        Selections: 5 Saurus Knights, Celestite Lance

      • Saurus Warriors [200]

        Selections: 2x 10 Saurus Warriors, Celestite Spear, Stardrake Icon, Wardrum

    • Other

      • Ripperdactyl Riders [280]

        Selections: 2x 3 Ripperdactyl Riders

      • Terradon Riders [240]

        Selections: 2x 3 Terradon Riders, Starstrike Javelin

    • Allegiance

      • Allegiance

        Selections: Allegiance: Seraphon

    • Game Options

      • Game Type

        Selections: 2000 - Battlehost

    • Realm of Origin

      • Realm of Origin

        Selections: Origin: Aqshy

Thanks in advance!

SG

Edited by ServiceGames

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I am not talking about indidvidual store stock really, I'm talking "items that are eligible to be stocked in stores".   Stores can have different stock, sure. But no store will receive new stock of a product that is webstore only. 

Stegadon, Carnosaur, Warriors, Knights, and all resin kits (15+) are webstore only.  Since 3 of those plastic kits are in SC, really Stegadon is the only plastic kit that can not be found in any retail (gw or flgs) stores (given not all stores may stock all items).   

There are 5 retail boxes for Seraphon. Compare to say, KO, brand new army. 7 boxes.  Most armies are less.  Seraphon is not in a particularly bad spot.  If your store has less Seraphon than most factions, it must be because it's waiting on restock or it just doesn't stock it (Poor sales?)

The issue with Seraphon is the amount of resin kits. GW does not want resin kits in their store. They're not newcomer friendly. 

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1 hour ago, ServiceGames said:

OK, so I updated my list  Suggestions and Constructive Criticism welcome

  Reveal hidden contents

I'll be using my Engine of the Gods to summon three units of 20 Skinks each

AoS Seraphon (Age of Sigmar) [1990]

  • **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Seraphon) [1990]

    • Leader

      • Engine of the Gods [220]

      • Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur [260]

        Selections: General

      • Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur [240]

        Selections: Celestite Greatblade

    • Behemoth

      • Bastiladon [280]

        Selections: Solar Engine

    • Battleline

      • Saurus Knights [180]

        Selections: 2x 5 Saurus Knights, Celestite Lance, Stardrake Icon, Wardrum

      • Saurus Knights [90]

        Selections: 5 Saurus Knights, Celestite Lance

      • Saurus Warriors [200]

        Selections: 2x 10 Saurus Warriors, Celestite Spear, Stardrake Icon, Wardrum

    • Other

      • Ripperdactyl Riders [280]

        Selections: 2x 3 Ripperdactyl Riders

      • Terradon Riders [240]

        Selections: 2x 3 Terradon Riders, Starstrike Javelin

    • Allegiance

      • Allegiance

        Selections: Allegiance: Seraphon

    • Game Options

      • Game Type

        Selections: 2000 - Battlehost

    • Realm of Origin

      • Realm of Origin

        Selections: Origin: Aqshy

Thanks in advance!

SG

Is there a reason that the 2nd group of saurus knights have no command or was that a copy paste issue?

 

28 minutes ago, sorokyl said:


The issue with Seraphon is the amount of resin kits. GW does not want resin kits in their store. They're not newcomer friendly. 

Yea thats one of the big points that I think Seraphon really need a proper release (not what occurred with BoC). Especially since Slaan are still resin only, despite being the seraphons Leader type figure who are the ones calling the shots.

Not to mention it also may be confusing for fans of Total War Warhammer 2 that Kroxigors on the table top look like bigger saurus rather than crocodile people.

So I think at the very least a seraphon 2.0 update should be

Book+Endless Spells+possible terrain feature (the usual for all releases so far)

Plastic Slaan and Kroxigors (TW design) at the very least.  Unfortunately I can't really see them making plastic artillery beasts, they may stay resin forever. Not sure of Chameleons would also graduate.

Maybe 1-2 brand new kits to make them more AOS themed, especially to visualize the Order Daemon/Azyr aspect.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Is there a reason that the 2nd group of saurus knights have no command or was that a copy paste issue?

 

Yea thats one of the big points that I think Seraphon really need a proper release (not what occurred with BoC). Especially since Slaan are still resin only, despite being the seraphons Leader type figure who are the ones calling the shots.

Not to mention it also may be confusing for fans of Total War Warhammer 2 that Kroxigors on the table top look like bigger saurus rather than crocodile people.

So I think at the very least a seraphon 2.0 update should be

Book+Endless Spells+possible terrain feature (the usual for all releases so far)

Plastic Slaan and Kroxigors (TW design) at the very least.  Unfortunately I can't really see them making plastic artillery beasts, they may stay resin forever. Not sure of Chameleons would also graduate.

Maybe 1-2 brand new kits to make them more AOS themed, especially to visualize the Order Daemon/Azyr aspect.

 

 

Yes, it was a copy and paste problem.  Sorry about that.

As far as new Seraphon release, I very much doubt it.  With DoK and Idoneth Deepkin along with Nightvault and the new warbands coming out, I highly doubt that we'll see anything new on Seraphon for a long time if at all.  It does seem odd that the most powerful Leaders are still Resin/Finecast though. 

SG

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5 hours ago, ServiceGames said:

 

As far as new Seraphon release, I very much doubt it.  With DoK and Idoneth Deepkin along with Nightvault and the new warbands coming out, I highly doubt that we'll see anything new on Seraphon for a long time if at all.  It does seem odd that the most powerful Leaders are still Resin/Finecast though.

Yea keep in mind we have seen 3 2.0 books

Stormcast (new models and predicted by Malign Portents)

Nighthaunt (new models and predicted by Malign Portents)

Beasts of Chaos (no new units and not hinted by anything other than the loose 2.0 previews)

 

The other two Malign Portent hints are very obvious with Moonclan (if not Grots as a whole) and Darkoath/slaves to darkness (still confusing on what is getting updated exactly). Those 2 factions will get books and will get new models given the precedent. Thus any other books I'd reckon that show up at the same time-ish will not receive new models until after Moonclan and Dark Oath get their turn. This would be fine for bookless armies since they would just like to have a book, like Skaven or whatever strange free city concoction they make (assuming the free city idea is at all viable).

And as I mentioned, Seraphon should really have some resin model overhauls with an update, thus it seems unlikely they will get a book update soon. Granted our sample size is on the small side. (theres also the slaanesh khorne thing but thats a whole different beast since khorne already has their book and it is also a 40k update as well. Not sure if it is at all involving a perma slaanesh book, it may be a blightwar situation.)

Edited by kenshin620

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