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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

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4 hours ago, Calebexnihilo said:

Youtube - AOS Bat Rep - Seraphon vs Nurgle - Gotrek vs 3 GUO!

Gameplan: Focal Points

His list:
3 Great Unclean Ones in Thricefold
2x40 Plaguebearers
1x10 Plaguebearers
Umbral Spell Portal
Gemenids

My List:
Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
Lord Kroak (320)
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Engine of the Gods (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
Gotrek Gurnisson (520) - Allies
10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
Bastiladon (220) - Weapon: Solar Engine
Bastiladon (220)- Weapon: Solar Engine
Balewind Vortex (40)
Bound The Burning Head (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 93

Nice one!

Gotrek is actually kind of interesting in Seraphon. The Bat rep gave me some ideas for Starborne where the playstyle might be a little slower. 😁

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Hey, what is considered a competitive list for Seraphon?

Just looking for some ideas. There's no events and in thinking about picking them up.

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6 hours ago, Obeisance said:

Hey, what is considered a competitive list for Seraphon?

Just looking for some ideas. There's no events and in thinking about picking them up.

Well as you said there are no events, so it is kinda hard to figure out what a "competitive" list looks like in the new tome. Some people are playing online on tabletop stimulator, where Starborne has been doing well - Largely Skinks, Chameleon Skinks and Salamanders. 

If you go into the Seraphon section here, there are 2 threads with lists from Jack and Paul (playtesters). 

In general you need to decide between going Skinks, Saurus Warriors/Knights or big dinos. From what I have seen, the "most competitive" list currently is fielding multiple Salamanders/80ish Skinks.

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11 hours ago, Obeisance said:

Hey, what is considered a competitive list for Seraphon?

All of the Salamanders

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I'm really enjoying Coalesced and Thunderlizard right now. I've gotten in about 10-15 total games since book dropped.

Fangs -  My Fangs list (2x40 Skinks with a Priest and Starpriest in support of each block) is absolutely deadly vs some opponents.... but falls REAL quick to support hero sniping lists. Without those two weak support heroes, a big block of skinks won't put out any damage. This is the subfaction to spam Salamanders into.

Draco Tail - Haven't played any games inside this sub faction.

Koatl's Claw - I've played a couple for games in Koatl's. I mainly used it as a Carno heavy list. That +1 to hit on charge (plus another +1 to hit from Old Blood) makes Carnos quite deadly! Kroak, 3 Carnos, 40x Warriors, Firelance, 10x Guard. This list has zero shooting though.... so not too terribly balanced.

Thunderlizard - My favorite! Probably not the most competitive, but it excels against elite model count armies! I've played some 5 Stegadon lists, some 3 bastiladon lists, and some Carno heavy lists. They are all fun! Thunderquake Temple Host is our best battalion IMO. The ability to swap between speed and attacks is incredibly useful. I can put 3 stegadons into your front lines turn one... and they can be hard to remove (esp vs elite armies). The ability to fire bastiladon's twice is a death sentence vs Chaos Demons! Weakness is hordes though. Kit your Kroak and endless spells to deal with hordes.

Its a deep army with alot of options. I can't wait to see some GT results when they get back up and running. I've got a GT coming up next month in Texas. I'll be taking a Thunderlizard list.

But...  as Pjeski said.... Salamanders are really our best spammable unit! They are nasty! Facing a full army of salamanders would be insane (and expensive... lol)

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Hi all

my Fangs of Sotek go up against Flesh Eater Courts.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

TLDW:

5 Saurus Knights with Spears
- Coalesced (+1 Jaw attacks)
- Koatl’s Claw (+1 to hit on the charge)
- On the Charge (+1 dmg for spears)
- Scar Vet on Carno/Cold One - Cmd Pt 6’s to hit = Extra Hit
- Skink Starpriest – 6’s to wound = 1 Mortal Wound
- Reroll 1’s to hit (command pt or Hand of Glory spell)

2 Cmd points (only 1 if your spell hand of glory goes off from Starpriest) and that takes them from an avg of 4 dmg vs 4+ save to over 18 dmg.

Probably smartest to take a unit of 10. More buffs for the buck.

Edited by Calebexnihilo
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@Calebexnihilo I probably wouldn't bother with the rr1's to hit CA if Hand of Glory fails... unless running the Koatl's Claw Aetherquartz brooch combo. Plenty of pound with just 1 CP spent! And yeah, I agree that 10 models is probably the ideal size.

Slightly related to your video, I've been wondering if Coalesced Seraphon lists should be considering Soulscream Bridge. It addresses two problems pretty effectively. One, it allows you to take a full on Kroak setup. Balewind Kroak doesn't work well at all without the teleport, and Kroak's slow movement becomes much more of a problem with the reduced range and lack of teleport. But with bridge you can put him on his pedestal and still move him around. It's not as good as a full on teleport, but it's still quite solid.

A second benefit is that it makes Firelance Temple Host knights a legitimate turn 1 charge threat. Bridge probably provides about 12-15" of move, so with a starseer you're looking at a 3d6 + 3-4 charge from 12-15" deep.  So that's an average of 25.5-29.5" turn 1 charge range. Considering you have a baked in free reroll that should work pretty frequently.

Finally, bridge helps your Salamanders close into range quickly. This could help you break screens to get the knights through, or simply forego a t1 knight charge for a t1 salamander show.

Basically you get to play a real Kroak and give your Coalesced list a legit turn 1 threat, which imo makes up for two of the biggest weaknesses of Coalesced.

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@Calebexnihilo Why not include an Oldblood for an extra +1 to hit? More hits for the Starpriest venom etc.
 

@swarmofseals Yeah I agree. I think Coalesced players have to consider some movement tricks. Saurus just seem too slow and predictable otherwise.

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8 hours ago, Kasper said:

@Calebexnihilo Why not include an Oldblood for an extra +1 to hit? More hits for the Starpriest venom etc.
 

@swarmofseals Yeah I agree. I think Coalesced players have to consider some movement tricks. Saurus just seem too slow and predictable otherwise.

Half the attacks were already hitting on 2s, so i figured RR1s got me more bang for my buck than the Old Blood's cmd ab. But if you have command pts to spare (or are facing a -1 to hit), it will def be worth it!

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@AaronWilson Well done at the TTS! I feel like the Starstrike battleplan kinda turned against you. Feel like the game would have been much different if the two objectives werent ontop of each other. 
 

I read your tweet about Seraphon producing non-fun games for your opponent. Would really like to hear your reasoning and figured an answer would be easier here without a letter cap.

Is Kroak simply too oppressive? Is it the bound Endless spells? Is it the 50/50 with the Fangs command ability?


When I started theorycrafting especially heavy magic/Skinks lists, this is the exact outcome I was fearing. It is important to me that my opponent is also having fun. On the other hand, almost every army has a degree of “not fun” interactions, so would like to hear how bad it actually is on the table.

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Had a great fight between Seraphon and a CoS Living Cities army! The Bound Purple Sun was worth its weight in gold!

Seraphon List:
Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
Lord Kroak (320)
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Engine of the Gods (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell: Tide of Serpents
Skink Priest (70)
Skink Priest (70)
40 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
40 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
Bastiladon (220)
- Weapon: Solar Engine
Bastiladon (220)
- Weapon: Solar Engine
Bound Purple Sun of Shyish (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 145

 

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I got my newly painted Terradons on the table for their first battle vs the Everchosen.

 

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7 hours ago, Keith said:

I got my newly painted Terradons on the table for their first battle vs the Everchosen.

 

Awesome!!!

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Testing the Stegadon Flame Throwers vs hordes of Plague Monks!

Seraphon List:
Allegiance: Seraphon
 - Constellation: Thunder Lizard
LEADERS
Lord Kroak (320)
- Spell : Stellar Tempest
Engine of the Gods (260)
Stegadon with Skink Chief (270)
- General
- Command Trait : Prime Warbeast
- Artefact : Fusil of Conflaguration
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell : Hand of Glory
Skink Priest (70)
UNITS
40 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters & Star bucklers
BEHEMOTHS
Stegadon (240)
- Weapon : Sunfire Throwers
- Seraphon Battleline (Constellation: Thunder Lizard)
Stegadon (240)
- Weapon : Sunfire Throwers
- Seraphon Battleline (Constellation: Thunder Lizard)
Stegadon (240)
- Weapon : Sunfire Throwers
- Seraphon Battleline (Constellation: Thunder Lizard)

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I've really liked these battle reports. I just got into AoS with a Seraphon book as my first tabletop and am excited to battle! I've played a lot of Catan and such, and got drawn to AoS after lots of hours in TotalWar Warhammer. 

Bound endless spells seem super dope, why wouldn't I run one in every army? Even the 20pt bound Maelstrom for an additional dispel and potential explosion seems pretty good. Even if it gets dispelled right away, the caster spends their turn doing that not something else while I used one of my million casts from Kroak to produce it. Or 40pt bound burning head that could do some dps or +1 to hit for my bastiladon solar engines.

Am I missing something about the strength of another drop of 60pt skinks over one bound sun or geminids? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DrDoom said:

I've really liked these battle reports. I just got into AoS with a Seraphon book as my first tabletop and am excited to battle! I've played a lot of Catan and such, and got drawn to AoS after lots of hours in TotalWar Warhammer. 

Bound endless spells seem super dope, why wouldn't I run one in every army? Even the 20pt bound Maelstrom for an additional dispel and potential explosion seems pretty good. Even if it gets dispelled right away, the caster spends their turn doing that not something else while I used one of my million casts from Kroak to produce it. Or 40pt bound burning head that could do some dps or +1 to hit for my bastiladon solar engines.

Am I missing something about the strength of another drop of 60pt skinks over one bound sun or geminids? 

Bound endless spells are awesome! In my more serious lists i always try to include AT LEAST one. I love the Bound Purple Sun. It strikes fear in the opponent! lol.

I've had some great use of Burning Head hanging out around my bastiladons to give them "free" reroll 1's to hit. And then shoot it off towards and enemy if they get too close.

Bound Geminids is expensive but has great range and can wreck some enemy lists.

Edited by Calebexnihilo

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1 hour ago, Calebexnihilo said:

Bound endless spells are awesome! In my more serious lists i always try to include AT LEAST one. I love the Bound Purple Sun. It strikes fear in the opponent! lol.

I've had some great use of Burning Head hanging out around my bastiladons to give them "free" reroll 1's to hit. And then shoot it off towards and enemy if they get too close.

Bound Geminids is expensive but has great range and can wreck some enemy lists.

My friend and I are doing 1k pt armies to start, and I keep staring at the list with geminids and swords for 110pts instead of 5 knights to go with my 2 starpriests. The list only has 50 wnds in koatl claw coalesced, I'm thinking about finding out exactly how tanky a bastiladon is haha

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Here's the 1k list I'm going to smash against my friend's Stormcast or Nagash army:

- Mortal Realm: Hysh
- Constellation: Koatl's Claw
LEADERS
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (210)
- War Spear
Skink Starpriest (120)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Star Rituals
- Artefact : Aetherquartz Brooch
- Spell : Tide of Serpents
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell : Hand of Glory
UNITS
10 x Saurus Knights (200)
- Lances
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
BEHEMOTHS
Bastiladon (220)
- Weapon : Solar Engine
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70)

1000pts; 60wnd

+3 to cast after constellation will allow me to cast successfully with the general pretty often I'm thinking. As they fumble avoiding the Geminids or after being debuffed best by them, I find the best time to smash the Scar-Vet and Knights into their line. When the enemy battleline finally gets to mine Tide of Serpents will continue dropping mortal wound bombs. 

My other list I'm looking at drops the Carnosaur for Cold One and adds Bound Swords and some stuff at 50wnd. I'm nervous it'll just get blitzed before the double spells can do work. But dispelling both in one turn is tough; and it seems like an avg swords attack with bastiladon fire should own minor heroes. 

Does the list seem any good? Is a double bound spell build in 1k armies too greedy and not enough wounds?

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19 hours ago, DrDoom said:

Here's the 1k list I'm going to smash against my friend's Stormcast or Nagash army:

- Mortal Realm: Hysh
- Constellation: Koatl's Claw
LEADERS
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (210)
- War Spear
Skink Starpriest (120)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Star Rituals
- Artefact : Aetherquartz Brooch
- Spell : Tide of Serpents
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell : Hand of Glory
UNITS
10 x Saurus Knights (200)
- Lances
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
BEHEMOTHS
Bastiladon (220)
- Weapon : Solar Engine
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70)

1000pts; 60wnd

+3 to cast after constellation will allow me to cast successfully with the general pretty often I'm thinking. As they fumble avoiding the Geminids or after being debuffed best by them, I find the best time to smash the Scar-Vet and Knights into their line. When the enemy battleline finally gets to mine Tide of Serpents will continue dropping mortal wound bombs. 

My other list I'm looking at drops the Carnosaur for Cold One and adds Bound Swords and some stuff at 50wnd. I'm nervous it'll just get blitzed before the double spells can do work. But dispelling both in one turn is tough; and it seems like an avg swords attack with bastiladon fire should own minor heroes. 

Does the list seem any good? Is a double bound spell build in 1k armies too greedy and not enough wounds?

Im pretty sure you are forced to take the Koatls specific artefact. 

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20 hours ago, DrDoom said:

Here's the 1k list I'm going to smash against my friend's Stormcast or Nagash army:

- Mortal Realm: Hysh
- Constellation: Koatl's Claw
LEADERS
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (210)
- War Spear
Skink Starpriest (120)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Star Rituals
- Artefact : Aetherquartz Brooch
- Spell : Tide of Serpents
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell : Hand of Glory
UNITS
10 x Saurus Knights (200)
- Lances
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
BEHEMOTHS
Bastiladon (220)
- Weapon : Solar Engine
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70)

1000pts; 60wnd

+3 to cast after constellation will allow me to cast successfully with the general pretty often I'm thinking. As they fumble avoiding the Geminids or after being debuffed best by them, I find the best time to smash the Scar-Vet and Knights into their line. When the enemy battleline finally gets to mine Tide of Serpents will continue dropping mortal wound bombs. 

My other list I'm looking at drops the Carnosaur for Cold One and adds Bound Swords and some stuff at 50wnd. I'm nervous it'll just get blitzed before the double spells can do work. But dispelling both in one turn is tough; and it seems like an avg swords attack with bastiladon fire should own minor heroes. 

Does the list seem any good? Is a double bound spell build in 1k armies too greedy and not enough wounds?

Yeah, Koatl's Claw the first Artefact has to be the Eviscerating Blade, Put it on the Scar Vet the 6 attacks possibly doing 2 mortals a piece then some is great.

Where are you getting +3? +1 from the Command Trait sure, and +1 from the Constellation, But I don't think there's another +1 for Skinks without a slann casting celestial Equilibrium or an astrolith bearer?

I'd say it'd still be pretty effective, and yeah the knights till do some work, I've had pretty good things from units of 5 alone even. 

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Posted (edited)

Oh ******. I thought the Koatl's artifact was like the command trait and not forced. So I have to use a battalion to get access to any of the other artifacts? All of the constellations have an associated artifact.

 

You're right on +3, on the other list I was looking at I put an Astrolith in there for the last point. This list will be +2 for the starpriest. 

Edited by DrDoom
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Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard

Leaders
Lord Kroak (320)
- Spell: Celestial Apotheosis
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
Engine of the Gods (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Sacred Stegadon Helm
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
- Spell: Hand of Glory

Battleline
10 x Saurus Knights (200)
- Lances
Stegadon (240)
- Weapon: Skystreak Bow
Stegadon (240)
- Weapon: Skystreak Bow

Units
6 x Kroxigor (280)
- 2x Moonhammers

Battalions
Thunderquake Temple-host (150)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 93

Hey, it's Kroxigor guy again. I've been trying to solve the puzzle of how best to use Kroxigors. Knowing they key off the SKINK keyword I've been trying to build them around Skink lists. It occurred to me the big dinosaurs are 1) Skinks and 2) fit into the Thunderquake Battalion.

What does this do?

1) It gives the SKINK keyword on MELEE minded units, which is where Kroxigors want to be. Charging them together maintain the wholly within 6'' more easily.

2) Being Coalesced it grants all of the above +1 jaws attacks.

3) The Thunderquake Battalion gives the ability to run and still shoot and charge, or +1 melee attacks. This is huge because Kroxigors are essentially isolated from the rest of the book so far as buffs go. Only generic SERAPHON buffs work because they are neither skink nor saurus so it's difficult to actively buff them.

I suppose the idea behind the list is to hopefully generate a lot of CP with Kroak, and then dump that CP into double using the EOTG for healing. This is my second idea, to be honest. I've done the sims in the image attached. I can squeeze a lot more damage from my list going Stega-Chief. With Kroak and starting with 2 CP I could potentially dump 3 CP per Stegadon making them terrifying monsters. I did the sims MERELY with the following in mind:

1) Thunderquake Battalion in Savage (+1 Melee Attack) Mode.

2) Coalesced Jaws Bonus (+1 jaws attack)

3) Stegadon Command Ability (+1 SKINK UNIT melee attacks)

4) Thunder Lizard Command Trait (+1 mount attacks)

5) Chief Helmet Artefact (+1 damage to melee weapons)

No other buffs included.

This begs the question: Do I bother with a defensive grinding build using LORD KROAK with Apotheosis hoping for +10 casts and double EOTG heals, or do I simply say ****** it and go fully offensive and make terrifying juggernauts fully dedicated to destruction?

Now the third thing I've debated is that originally I had 3 sets of 10 skinks. Then I set them to 30 block of skinks. Then I decided perhaps just Saurus Knights. Is this a fast calvary style alpha strike turn 1 charge list? Do I have the speed for that? It appears I very much WANT the charge rather than to BE charged. I don't know that this list is particularly hardy. This cycles back to: If I build for EOTG double-heal (it's random and maybe I don't get it when I need it) and Apotheosis, often things die in 1 turn anyway...I've found it's rarer for big monsters to actually survive long enough to be healed (MBMK, Bloodthirster, to name a few I've personal first hand experience with). Perhaps simply going full offense would be the smarter choice.

So do my Knights contribute to my offense in any meaningful way, or do I simply take the Skink Chaff and throw them on objectives... this list is clearly not great at the objective game, per se.

I also have the room to drop a unit of skinks taking it to 2 units of 10, or 1 unit of 20 and squeezing in a Skink Priest. His command ability grants +1 to hit rolls. His regular ability on a 3+ grants the ability to run and charge and shoot (somewhat redundant with Thunderquake), and +1 to save rolls.

This can be used on a Engine of the Gods, Stegadon Skink Chief, or Stegadon to hit on 2+, and have +1 to save rolls making them 3+ or possibly 2+ if their special warscrolls ability triggers increasing offense and defense.

Any thoughts or feedback?

 

Stegadon Comparison Chart.jpg

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20 hours ago, DrDoom said:

Oh ******. I thought the Koatl's artifact was like the command trait and not forced. So I have to use a battalion to get access to any of the other artifacts? All of the constellations have an associated artifact.

 

You're right on +3, on the other list I was looking at I put an Astrolith in there for the last point. This list will be +2 for the starpriest. 

Yeah, the Command Trait's are all locked to if you take a slann/saurus/hero with monster mount, then you can avoid them otherwise. 

But the artefacts are all the first hero to take an artefact takes the constellation artefact, then yes if you have a battalion for a second artefact, that can be whatever you want it to be from either the seraphon artefacts  or realm artefact if they're being used. 

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Carnosaur question:

So I have 2 carnosaurs. I built one as a Scar-veteran on a carnosaur and I'm trying to decide whether to build the 2nd one as another Scar-veteran or as an Oldblood. The only real advantage of the Oldblood I can see is for facing Chaos Daemons. Are there any good reasons to field an Oldblood on carnosaur besides that?

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