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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

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1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

Terradons: 4 base, +1 Coalesced, +1 Stegadon Chief

Rippers 1 base spear + 1 Ripper Chief + 1 Stegadon Chief, 3 base bite +1 Ripper Chief + 1 Stegadon Chief +1 Coalesced 

If you are curious I did extensive comparisons of Rippers and Terradons a bit upthread. Might be a page or two back at this point. Suffice to say that they are in the same ballpark on offensive efficiency. Terradons are likely a little bit better at baseline but they are squishier and lose a lot in subsequent turns after they drop their rocks. They are faster though, which makes a huge difference. Rippers are slower but have more staying power (particularly if you take an extra min sized unit or two as objective grabbers, which will allow you to have multiple blot toads for your main ripper unit).

Thats assuming you can get them all in range with their 1" attacks, which is unlikely at 6 models and basically never going to happen once you go past 6 models in the unit. Terradons have the same problem with their 1" melee attacks, but they do a lot of their damage with shooting and rocks before they need to melee.

Terradons are faster and do more damage in a single turn, while Rippers have a little more survivability and would do more damage if they got multiple combat phases to attack. Unfortunately both units die horribly after they get one round of combat so there's little chance of getting a second, and that assumes you don't fight something that changes the combat order and fights before you do.

The only thing keeping Ripperdactyls viable was the idea that you could pump 5 command points into them and unleash hell in a single round of combat.

If you like Ripperdactyls you can make them a pretty good hammer unit... but in a competitive game there is no reason to use a large unit of Rippers over Terradons.

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@PJetski I think getting 9-12 into range isn't nearly as hard with flying and potentially 3d6 to charge. It's much easier to surround an enemy unit that way. If you can fly across the enemy unit with 9-12 Terradons you should be able to accomplish a similar feat with rippers. 

There's also some serious goalpost moving going on. I was responding to claims that rippers are useless, "buried and dead," not worth considering etc. You yourself imply that Ripperdactyls are not viable. You support that claim by stating that Ripperdactyls are a pretty good hammer unit, but that Terradons are better competitively in large units.

If anything, the fact that they can be a "pretty good hammer unit" means that they are viable. Are the optimal? Probably not -- and I absolutely agree with that. I think most competitive lists are going to favor Terradons over rippers. But that hardly means that Rippers are "useless" and "not viable".

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I should have been clearer - I was responding specifically to your comment about their comparative efficiency. If I recall correctly when you did your analysis you made the assumption that all Terradons and all Ripperdactyls were able to be in range to deal their full damage. In practice it's much easier to get the most out of Terradons than Ripperdactyls because fitting 12x 50mm bases into combat with 1" attacks is quite difficult. It's much easier to shoot from 6" away and drop rocks while moving and/or charging and/or piling into combat, so you almost always get closer to the full potential when using Terradons than Rippers.

I don't think Ripperdactyls are objectively bad, but Terradons seem to be strictly at fulfilling the same role.

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Hi all, I use the Azyr app and I think it is in error. I was planning to use the Firelance Temple Host from my Seraphon (I have never done an all cav/monsters type list) but the app is now telling me that the Batallion can't be used in matched play. I am certain from reading the battle tome that this is an error? I have uninstalled and reinstalled the app but the same thing comes up. Tested the list on warscroll builder and it doesn't error there.

Any ideas would be appreciated. 

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Hi all respectful starmasters, quick question here: when it says "you can re-roll 1 casting  roll", do you reroll 2D6 together or you can just reroll one of the 2D6?    

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7 minutes ago, frostfire said:

Hi all respectful starmasters, quick question here: when it says "you can re-roll 1 casting  roll", do you reroll 2D6 together or you can just reroll one of the 2D6?    

"If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6 etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again."

- Core Rules, p. 226

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Hi guys, I'm making a return to AoS with a couple of armies and Seraphon was one of them. One thing that I can't wrap my head around is the 1+ save thing.

Can someone go over the "Bastiladons unrendable save at 1+" again with me please?

I don't get how it's meant to work. If someone hits it with a -2 rend, the save would be modified from 1+ to 3+.

...So If I roll a 1, it fails anyway; but if I roll a 2, and it's been changed to 3, should that also not fail?

I need help wrapping my lizard brain around this.

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1 minute ago, RussianBot454 said:

Hi guys, I'm making a return to AoS with a couple of armies and Seraphon was one of them. One thing that I can't wrap my head around is the 1+ save thing.

Can someone go over the "Bastiladons unrendable save at 1+" again with me please?

I don't get how it's meant to work. If someone hits it with a -2 rend, the save would be modified from 1+ to 3+.

...So If I roll a 1, it fails anyway; but if I roll a 2, and it's been changed to 3, should that also not fail?

I need help wrapping my lizard brain around this.

Rend doesn't modify the save characteristic, it modifies the roll, to a minimum of one. So Basti player rolls a 2 on his save vs -2 rend. 2-2 is still 1, 1 is a success, so basti makes it's save.

 

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That's where I have it wrong. I focused on the save value itself, that's why it never made any sense.

Thank you!

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On 3/30/2020 at 10:23 PM, kaaras said:

Hi all, I use the Azyr app and I think it is in error. I was planning to use the Firelance Temple Host from my Seraphon (I have never done an all cav/monsters type list) but the app is now telling me that the Batallion can't be used in matched play. I am certain from reading the battle tome that this is an error? I have uninstalled and reinstalled the app but the same thing comes up. Tested the list on warscroll builder and it doesn't error there.

Any ideas would be appreciated. 

I think it's bugged, when I try to put Thunder Lizards in Coalesced it says its invalid because I didn't give the warlord trait and item to a monster but then when i give it to a skink chief on stegadon it says its invalid because that unit can't have the warlord trait and item 

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@ColsBols I think you are correct. I contacted the digital@gw email so hopefully they will look at it soon.

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On 3/30/2020 at 6:49 PM, PJetski said:

Thats assuming you can get them all in range with their 1" attacks, which is unlikely at 6 models and basically never going to happen once you go past 6 models in the unit. Terradons have the same problem with their 1" melee attacks, but they do a lot of their damage with shooting and rocks before they need to melee.

Terradons are faster and do more damage in a single turn, while Rippers have a little more survivability and would do more damage if they got multiple combat phases to attack. Unfortunately both units die horribly after they get one round of combat so there's little chance of getting a second, and that assumes you don't fight something that changes the combat order and fights before you do.

The only thing keeping Ripperdactyls viable was the idea that you could pump 5 command points into them and unleash hell in a single round of combat.

If you like Ripperdactyls you can make them a pretty good hammer unit... but in a competitive game there is no reason to use a large unit of Rippers over Terradons.

Why do you think that getting more than 6 into combat is hard? Getting 12 into combat is easy! They're fast, and they fly, and most enemy units are big and/or stretched out by necessity. Alternatively, just charge two enemy units to maximise your attacks. It's really not that big a deal.

Personally I did all my maths when the book came out assuming that the Ripper CA would get nerfed, and to be honest, without even using the chief. I didn't like adding the extra drop. And I still think that Rippers are better than Terradons if they're your main combat units, unless your plan is specifically to alpha things off the board with rocks (which is legit also). Terradons are also better when you're just splashing them for speed / hero sniping / filling out a Shadowstrike.

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So this got me thinking.  Since Koatl's Claw makes Saurus viable, couldn't you make a relatively cheap army by using like two start collectings, plus a few more boxes of saurus and some heroes?  You could run a double  battalion with a Sunclaw and a Firelance, Oldblood on Carno, Scar-Vet on Carno, Sunblood (convert from a spare Saurus with leftover Oldblood/Scar-Vet parts), Skink Starpriest, 40/20/20 Saurus, 3x5 Knights.  Should be relatively cheap.

Now whether that's good is another question... 

 

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Posted (edited)

@wayniac I think such an army would be perfectly good in semi-competitive games and it would also be really easy to pick of a spare Skink Starpriest or two from people who have extras from the SC Skinks boxes. I'm pretty sure you'll want one or two of those even in KC Saurus type lists as your main weakness is a lack of rend.

@Quasistellar Or Kroak!

Edited by swarmofseals

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Posted (edited)

If you wanted to go for a maximum skink invasion list with something like 200+ skinks, would that make sense and how would you build such a list? :)

Edited by B.C.D.

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15 minutes ago, B.C.D. said:

If you wanted to go for a maximum skink invasion list with something like 200+ skinks, would that make sense and how would you build such a list? :)

Kroak (for CP generation and comets)
2x Skink Priests
3x Skink Starpriests
4x40 Skinks
1x30 Skinks
Balewind Vortex

Thats only 190 skinks.... you can summon in the other 10. lol

So almost 400 shots per turn. And a max of 7 cmd pts per turn. You should have enough to buff up the important units and still keep a few cmd pts left over for Parting Shot.

Of course if your extra cmd pt rolls all fail... the army falls apart fast.

And you will probably lose friends while they wait for you to roll 400 dice per turn (and then again in their charge phase).

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Posted (edited)

How is this looking for a competitive shooting oriented list?

 

Lord Kroak (320) 

Skink Priest (70)

Skink Starseer (140) General, Master of Star Rituals, Fusil of Conflagration

 

10 x Skinks (60) - Javelins 

10 x Skinks (60) - Javelins 

10 x Skinks (60) - Javelins 

10 x Skinks (60) - Javelins 

12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240)

12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240)

12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) 

Bastiladon (220)

Bastiladon (220)

Balewind Vortex

Total: 1970pts               Wounds: 130

 

General thoughts:

Strenghts

Bastiladon provides long range damage (easy turn 1 damage with run & shoot), and I should generate enough +CP to double tap every turn. +50% damage to Daemons is a solid bonus, plenty of those around.

Salamanders go behind skink screen and dish out a ton of high rend damage (with some MW sprinkled on top) and with +1 Jaw attack they're equally scary in melee.

Kroak puts a clock on the game by dealing constant AoE mortal wounds. Vortex + Vassal means Celestial Deliverance has a 28" range (up from 10"), and Comet deals global mortals wounds to pick off support units. Stellar Tempest to deal with hordes.

Weaknesses

Not a lot of bodies for objectives, but not that few either. Coalesced means low bravery. especially on sallies, but I have decent +CP generation and can pick Celestial Harmony on the Starseer so there are some ways to deal with it. A lot is also riding on the Starseer who is VERY squishy. Reliant on CP so bad +CP rolls can cripple the list.

 

Edit: Also no idea what to do with the last 30 pts. Can drop 10 skinks and make it 90pts (still no clue what to do with those points though).

Edited by umpac

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1. You definitely want a Bound Burning Head to boost shooting lists

2. I think you're going to run out of command points. Allow me to explain:

Bastiladon shooting is really only useful if you boost their accuracy with +1 hit & reroll hit1, and then double tap from Thunder Lizard. That's at least 2 command points per shooting phase per bastiladon. With 2 Bastiladons thats 4 CP per turn, which is a big ask.

Furthermore, a big weakness of Coalesced Salamanders is their bravery. After losing 7 skink handlers you are guaranteed to lose all your Salamanders, so you want to make sure you keep some command points to use Inspiring Presence. lf you're playing that many Salamanders you need to bank some command points for inspiring presence, which comes to odds with the amount of CP you are using to boost Bastiladons.

I think running 1 Bastiladon is fine, but the 2nd one is too much of a CP sink.

3. Personally I think if you want to run a shooting list you should run Fangs of Sotek with big hordes of skinks and teleporting Salamander squads, or Dracothions Tail to deep strike multiple Salamander/Razordon squads into play. Also, summoning more Salamanders and then immediately teleporting them into shooting range is incredible.

4. Your biggest weakness will be lists that can bog you down in combat and/or fight twice. Bastiladons do little damage in melee and the 30 skinks won't last long. Without the ability to just teleport out of combat you will find yourself tied down in long battles you can't afford to fight through, or even risk losing your key Salamanders.

5. Kroak without an Astrolith... not sure that's worth running.

6. You want some kind of large infantry block or fighty hero that can charge to contest objectives on scenarios like Duality of Death.

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You don't want to take bastiladons for thier damage - you want to take them for their survivability. That's why taking Thudnerlizard is inefficient. This list wants to be Dracothion's Tail.  This way it will apply a lot of pressure to the opponent. If he makes a mistake and opens a weak spot you can just teleport a unit of salamanders and punish them. Or, if they do it turn 1, just teleport the Kroak and drop all the salamanders. This will be way better then bonus attack on jaws, since they are primary a shooting unit and already strong enough in melee. Mobility would benifit them more. 

Also consider 40 skinks block with a starpriest - they are great for their cost. And additional skink caster is very important - you want to have Celestial Harmony for additional battleshock immunity, because you are low on CP.

I'd just drop bastiladons completely and take large skinks blob with starpriest instead, if you want to go competitive. And an astrolith with them.

 

38 minutes ago, PJetski said:

5. Kroak without an Astrolith... not sure that's worth running.

Absolutely, Astrolith is only necessary for good deliverence casts. It is still a CP generator, 4 denies with +1 bonus tablewide, which can be easily turned into +2. He can generate CCP and survive quite a bit of damage. Vortex will give most of his spells 18-24" range, which is more then enough. 

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27 minutes ago, PJetski said:

1. You definitely want a Bound Burning Head to boost shooting lists

Good call, thanks! Bound is definitely a game changer with this one.

27 minutes ago, PJetski said:

2. I think you're going to run out of command points.

They are decent with just double taps and no +hit (8 dmg instead of 10.66 vs 4+ save) but I see your point. Dropping one seems optimal. Side note, am I missing something about the Ark or is it just absolute garbage? It just seems incredibly bad. Was gonna magnitize it but then I was like, why bother?

 

45 minutes ago, PJetski said:

3. Personally I think if you want to run a shooting list you should run Fangs of Sotek with big hordes of skinks

Yeah I was trying to avoid big hordes of skinks, partly because I enjoy the big dinos more, partly because its so time consuming moving and rolling dice for giant blocks of skinks. The utility of Starborne is undeniable though, and teleporting + deep striking seems both fun and very strong. 

55 minutes ago, PJetski said:

5. Kroak without an Astrolith... not sure that's worth running.

Yeah I was thinking about an Astrolith but seemed like a waste if play coalesced since I'm paying for CCP I cant use. If I switch sub-faction I'll include one for sure. I feel +2 cast is good enough though, only the 3rd deliverance cast gets kinda iffy (58% chance of success). Could always drop a Bastil in favor of one.

23 minutes ago, Nart said:

Or, if they do it turn 1, just teleport the Kroak and drop all the salamanders.

That sounds hilarious, didn't even think of how the deep strike and teleport could be combined. Starting to lean more and more towards Starborne.

 

Thanks for the feedback both of you! Definitely given me lots to consider.

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@umpac even with the double tap the Bastiladons are not that efficient damagewise. They look fine superficially, but for the points cost they really aren't that good. For example, totally unbuffed 3 salamanders are doing 10.67 unsaved damage vs a 4+ while a Bastiladon only does 8 while requiring a CP at only 20 points less. The range is nice, for sure, but I think @PJetski is absolutely right that taking 2 is going to strain your command points badly. Without the double tap they are horrible.

I'd definitely consider an Astrolith bearer as well. The +1 to cast/unbind is really good, and the extra 6" range is huge. Yes the range on CD is kinda 26", but really it's a 16" bubble around your skink hero. You won't always want to have your skink heroes pushed as far forward as possible, so increasing that to a 22" bubble around your skink hero will add a lot of value to the spell. 

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Everything looks bad compared to Salamanders, they are probably the single best unit in the game so it's not a totally fair comparison at all 😄

You spend 220 points on a Bastiladon to get a very durable monster on a big base and sometimes its laser does something useful. I would always run 1 (and only 1) in Thunder Lizard lists because the double tap is pretty good long range damage, but in any other list the Bastiladon would be there primarily as a mobile wall.

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Posted (edited)

If you are gonna run Thunder Lizard with 2 Bastiladons, I would 100% get the Thunderquake Batallion and get the Aetherquartz Broch artefact. Otherwise, as the others have pointed out, you will have a rough time getting enough CPs to keep it going. Sure you might run OK the first round or two, but you want to keep going.

Limiting yourself to Thunder Lizard with just 1 Bastiladon seems a bit weak imo. I would consider just going straight Coalesced so you arent locked into a specific artefact (if you dont want to change list to fit a Batallion), or possibly consider Starborne with Dracothian's Tail to deepstrike Sallies.

 

But then again we are getting into this weird area where you want to run certain models in a certain subfaction due to rule of cool, neither might be optimal, but at the same time want to optimize the list.

Edited by Kasper

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34 minutes ago, Kasper said:

But then again we are getting into this weird area where you want to run certain models in a certain subfaction due to rule of cool, neither might be optimal, but at the same time want to optimize the list.

No, I don't really care about rule of cool, I mainly want to optimize. The only "rule" Im interested in is having a shooty list because my IJ and FEC armies are pure combat armies. I already have 1 bastiladon so I'll hold off on getting a 2nd for now.

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