AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

[PJetski]

Kroxigors in a Thunderquake Templehost are pretty good. You get 7 attacks per model on 3+/3+/-1 and either 2 damage (maul) or a chance at mortal wounds (bite). That's pretty good for a 140p unit.

[feraxil]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Kroxigors in a Thunderquake Templehost are pretty good. You get 7 attacks per model on 3+/3+/-1 and either 2 damage (maul) or a chance at mortal wounds (bite). That's pretty good for a 140p unit.

Isn't it 8 attacks? 4 maul 1 bite base, 1 bite from coalesced, 1 maul and 1 bite from thunderquake? Or am I missing something?

[Aleister]

With summoning being changed a lot, many are calling it a nerf.  Maybe it is?  There were problems with the mechanic for sure, but it definitely seems like you have to really focus on Summoning now if you want it to work, now that only Slanns, Oracles, and the Astrolith Bearer contribute CCP.  I am building some Oracle on Troglodon conversions, once I'm done I want to try this list, was hoping to see what you folks thought:

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Dracothion's Tail
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Ancient Knowledge
- Artefact: Godbeast Pendant
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
- Ancient Knowledge Spell: Celestial Apotheosis
Skink Oracle on Troglodon (260)
Skink Oracle on Troglodon (260)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
Gotrek Gurnisson (520)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers

Behemoths
Bastiladon (220)
- Weapon: Solar Engine

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bound Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Bound Purple Sun of Shyish (60)
Bound Prismatic Palisade (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 81


I went Dracothion's Tail for the Command Trait and Artefact, I don't plan on using the deep strike usually but I wouldn't have gained much from the 3" skink move that Fangs of Sotek would give me, I don't want to use the Artefact.  The Fangs of Sotek Command Ability is pretty nice so I may try that route later.

The obvious plan is to move up Gotrek and the Oracles, screened by Skinks, while I summon as much stuff as I can.  Top summoning choices will probably be Hunting Packs and Skinks.  I have healing for Gotrek or the Trogs.  If I did remove Bastiladon for the Cogs, with the remaining 130 points I guess I would go for another 2x 60 Skinks.  Purple Sun was chosen because even Gotrek can be swarmed by hordes, and I went with Pristmatic Palisade to block shooting (I play vs some nasty Cities of Sigmar shooting lists).  I have considered getting Chronomantic Cogs in here so I can get Gotrek to battle faster - I think what I could cut is the Bastiladon, which is possible but it will leave me with no shooting that doesn't need to be summoned in.

[Kasper]

@Aleister What is the purpose of the 2 Trogs? I don't see the value in 1 let alone 2. You can't cast Endless Spells through him, so I guess the only point is the healing spell from the Slann? Personally I would go for Kroak to at least be able to spam Celestial Deliverance from the Trog and use it offensively.

[Aleister]

13 minutes ago, Kasper said:

@Aleister What is the purpose of the 2 Trogs? I don't see the value in 1 let alone 2. You can't cast Endless Spells through him, so I guess the only point is the healing spell from the Slann? Personally I would go for Kroak to at least be able to spam Celestial Deliverance from the Trog and use it offensively.

They have the Oracle Keyword, and AFAIK nothing else does.I could run more Slanns, but Troglodons are pretty decent at shooting and melee, and without them I would have no melee and little shooting, making me entirely dependent on summoning and I'm not sure I want to do that.  The purpose of the list is to generate CCP and summon stuff.

With infinite points, yeah Kroak would be good.  But Troglodon saves me points and it's a pretty tight list - I could remove Gotrek and add in a couple of Bastiladons or something, making room for Kroak - I might do that later.  I intend to use Kroak later in a list that is less focused on summoning and instead slings more spells.  The thing about removing Kroak, is that I still want to have at least one Oracle.  The more Slann and Oracles I can field, the more CCP I can get.  I wish Skink Starpriest and Skink Starseer could generate CCP.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Aleister

[Kasper]

24 minutes ago, Aleister said:

The have the Oracle Keyword, and AFAIK nothing else does.I could run more Slanns, but Troglodons are pretty decent at shooting and melee, and without them I would have no melee and little shooting, making me entirely dependent on summoning and I'm not sure I want to do that.  The purpose of the list is to generate CCP and summon stuff.

To be frank they are not decent at anything at all. Granted I haven't played with one, but as I see it, their only purpose is being a moving spell portal for stuff like Kroaks CD spam while he sits back. 260 pts is way too much for the model on its own.  

Unbuffed 1 Trog will do an average of 3,5 damage against a 4+ save. This is without any buffs, but I doubt you will ever find yourself in a situation piling buffs onto this piece over something more killy.

 

I mean by all means go for it, but I think you will get run over fast. The only threat you have in the list is Gotrek and he is super slow without any buffs. If the opponent avoids him/gives up whatever objective he runs towards, I dont see how you would ever cap the other objectives. 

In general I think your list lacks synergies/buffs. Seraphon warscrolls are pretty poor and rely on buffs/command abilities being stacked ontop of each other to really shine. Units on their own are just really not gonna do anything. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Kasper

[Aleister]

42 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I mean by all means go for it, but I think you will get run over fast. ... I dont see how you would ever cap the other objectives. 

If the Summoning component works well enough, it should help mitigate both of these things.  Otherwise, you're right, and I won't be going all-in on summoning very often.

[PJetski]

2 hours ago, feraxil said:

Isn't it 8 attacks? 4 maul 1 bite base, 1 bite from coalesced, 1 maul and 1 bite from thunderquake? Or am I missing something?

Yeah that's true, I forgot to include the extra Jaw attack.

[Dankboss]

On 3/18/2020 at 9:00 AM, gronnelg said:

How do you guys feel about the dread saurian? 510 points seems a bit much to me. He's tanky, and he does a bit of damage. But 510? 
And 35 wounds is great, but only a 4+ means it's actually possible to take him down.

Make him 37 wounds, -1 damage and fly in Coalesced. His utility is his board control and presence, something Gotrek cannot do outside of just killing targets. The primary difference between them is that the Dread Saurian can wall off entire sections of the table in exchange for his significantly lower damage. If you're up against a lot of 2+ damage then the Dread can be a nightmare to remove. There's also the threat of his Roar which will force command points to be spent, or if timed correctly decimate a hoard when they run out.

He absolutely has some utility and is certainly a viable choice in the right list, although perhaps not to a highly competitive degree. I think that a top tier player can make a Dread do more for them than Gotrek will. It depends on the player. I wouldn't just slap them in any old list though; I think a skink-centric list will allow for more breathing room, his points cost considered.

[CaptainNippon]

There is no way of fielding a riderless carnosaur or stegadon, is there?

[Acid_Nine]

So in order to remember how to play AOS I tried my hand at making a firelance ist. Didn’t come up with any artifact or anything, but I put together some things that look very fun and synergistic, while keeping some strong support of skink star priests and the like. What do you guys think? Didn’t come up with any relic or spell choices, but I was thinking putting the +1 to casting spell on the slann just to boost up the skink’s casting attempts, and big squads of 15 to have some wounds laying around for after the charge.

 

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Constellation: Koatl's Claw
LEADERS
Slann Starmaster (260)
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (250)
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (210)
- Warblade
Skink Starpriest (120)
Skink Starseer (140)
UNITS
15 x Saurus Knights (300)
- Blades or spears
15 x Saurus Knights (300)
- Blades or spears
10 x Saurus Knights (200)
- Blades or spears
BATTALIONS
Firelance Temple-host (160)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Balewind vortex
 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Acid_Nine

[Calebexnihilo]

https://youtu.be/d7pLZSWvEWw

Bored due to the Virus Lockdown lol. Talking through a Thunderquake build using the OLD Thunderquake models.

Thunderquake always struggled with bodies, but summoning made up for that. I'm not sure we can compensate enough for the lack of bodies in Thunderquake now.

Thoughts?

[Eldarain]

How are people finding the 1+ save immune to rend on it's first bracket Bastiladon? I'm guessing entirely match up dependant based on mortal wound output?

Edited March 21, 2020 by Eldarain

[Volkhov]

Unless I’m missing something, the Bastilodon is no longer immune to rend. That’s the trade off for the 1+ save. 

[Eldarain]

The core rule mechanics make it immune to rend.

Bastilidon has a 1+ save.

I roll a 1, I fail, because it's an unmodified 1.

 Otherwise, I roll a 2-6.
Since it's passed the unmodified check we look at the modified version of the save.

Apply infinite rend, regardless of the result, the modifiers core rule kicks in. And makes that a modified 1.

Since it's modified, we check against the save characteristic, of 1+, so we pass.

[PJetski]

I'm waiting for the FAQ before I start making any value judgements on units. Bastiladon, Stegadon Chief, and Engine of the Gods need some erratas

Bound spells, too

Edited March 21, 2020 by PJetski

[SolomonHelsing]

The bastiladon's gone up in my rankings despite the no mortal save and what will be not immune to rend as it was. Simply because the straight 9 shots that only dips to 5 shots, true you can't get 12 shots anymore, but you also can't be stuck with just 2, so I think it's output damage wise has vastly improved, specially with chaos daemons being enemy no.1 in alot of cases. and the +4 Range just adds to that. 

 

I'll certainly be eager to see the FAQ's I've avoided anything I think might  be faq'd to save disappointment, and i've still not been disappointed by this book. I've just got to wait however long till I can actually play again now. 

[Calebexnihilo]

I wanted a more "Seraphon" Gotrek to use in my army... So i combined Gotrek head, weapon, pauldron, and bits with the Old Blood on foot base model! I think it looks hilariously awesome!

https://twitter.com/CalebHastings/status/1241378177538314240

He's been spending too much time with the Coalesced Seraphon... he has started to coalesce himself...

[swarmofseals]

On 3/18/2020 at 8:07 AM, PJetski said:

Shadowstrike Templehost is a very good battalion. It fills 2 battleline slots and includes a hero you will probably be bringing anyway, so it's pretty good to slip into a list for a cheap artefact. It also gives a significant hit buff that stacks with the Skink Priest command ability so you can easily get your units to +2 to hit rolls.

12 Terradons
16" Fly move
Run & shoot & charge (Skink Priest - Starstone Staff)
Hunter's Steed asterism for +1 run and +1 charge
+1 hit from battalion, +1 hit from Herald of the Old Ones (Skink Priest), reroll hit1 (multiple sources), and Serpent Staff (Skink Starpriest) to cause mortal wounds on wound6
Coalesced so +1 Jaw attack
Shoot for an average of 42 attacks (should be easy to get everyone within 6" with +1 run & shoot). Average 27 wounds before saves and 7 mortal wounds.
3d6+1 charge to drop 12 rocks (probably on top of a different unit since youre about to massively overkill the first one). With a Terradon Chief nearby you do an average of 20 mortal wounds.
Attack in melee with 60 attacks (if you can fit everyone in range) for an average of 39 wounds and 10 mortal wounds.
You can debuff one unit with the Starseer to effectively give the Terradons Rend-1.

Total average damage: 66 wounds before saves, 37 mortal wounds. 

Point cost: 150 (battalion) + 360 (12 Terradons) + 70 (Chief) = 580

Alternatively you can run Ripperdactyls and pump up their attacks with command points and you can massively overkill everything in front of you. With +2 hit and Serpent Staff even the riders are going to do significant damage. With +2 to saves from Priest + Starseer maybe you can actually survive some damage in order to fight again, though I see this struggling compared to the Terradon kamikaze squad.

I've been toying with this concept as well and I think it has a lot of potential. I'd note that it may be difficult to get the 3d6 charge buff off, however, as it requires you to fit all 12 terradons WW 12 of the 5" moving starseer in the charge phase. If the buff went off in the hero phase it'd be easier, but with the charge phase limitation it could be tricky. Even if you spend a CP to run 6 (7 with the asterism) with the starseer, that's 12" forward plus 12" giving a maximum 24" range for the furthest Terradon. That's plenty for charge purposes, but it might be challenging to get all of them both WW 12 of the starseer and 6" of an enemy that you actually want to shoot. 

Of course, I don't think you necessarily have to get it off on the first turn to make it good -- but just that it's important to be mindful of some pretty tricky spacing requirements. 

EDIT: Just for the sake of putting some more information out there, here is how Coalesced  Rippers and Terradons perform in Magical Christmas Land where you can get everyone into range. Buffs for Rippers include Shadowstrike, Skink Priest, Skink Starpriest, Ripperdactyl Chief, and Stegadon Chief. Buffs for Terradons include Shadowstrike, Skink Priest, Skink Starpriest, Ripperdactyl Chief, and Stegadon Chief. On-warscroll buffs are also assumed.

 

Rippers: 19.14 MW, 71.42 R0 (.3523 WDR)

Terradons: 34.3 MW, 48.89 R0 (.3416 WDR)

 

You could give both of these units a small additional buff with RR1s to hit or the Stegadon Chief buff to Terradons, but I didn't include those as I'm not entirely sure they are worth it.

Regardless, I think it's safe to say that both options are very close to one another in overall efficiency. The Terradons are better against armor while Ripperdactyls are better against softer targets.

Ripperdactyls have more staying power but require more buffs to reach peak efficiency. That said, they don't really need either hit bonus that much.  If you remove both +1 hit bonuses the damage only falls to 16.63 MW and 61.88 R0 (.3056 WDR). So if you aren't going Shadowstrike, rippers might be a consideration.

Terradons are faster, and that honestly might be the most important consideration. An extra 4" of move is pretty huge.

Edited March 21, 2020 by swarmofseals

[feraxil]

5 hours ago, PJetski said:

I'm waiting for the FAQ before I start making any value judgements on units. Bastiladon, Stegadon Chief, and Engine of the Gods need some erratas

Bound spells, too

Bastiladon doesnt need faq. Mistweaver Saih has had a 1+ save for years and no FAQ.

[Kamose]

15 hours ago, Eldarain said:

The core rule mechanics make it immune to rend.

Bastilidon has a 1+ save.

I roll a 1, I fail, because it's an unmodified 1.

 Otherwise, I roll a 2-6.
Since it's passed the unmodified check we look at the modified version of the save.

Apply infinite rend, regardless of the result, the modifiers core rule kicks in. And makes that a modified 1.

Since it's modified, we check against the save characteristic, of 1+, so we pass.

So just to clarify, are you saying that the lowest possible value on a die roll, regardless of modifiers, is 1?

Examples:

Roll 2 and Rend -1 =1

Roll 2 and Rend -2 = 1

Roll 2 and Rend -3 = 1

The modified dice roll is then compared to the bastiladon's save which is still 1+ and therefore it passes.

Am I getting that right? If so, I think I've been playing save rolls wrong this whoooooole time!

[Eldarain]

Just now, Kamose said:

So just to clarify, are you saying that the lowest possible value on a die roll, regardless of modifiers, is 1?

Examples:

Roll 2 and Rend -1 =1

Roll 2 and Rend -2 = 1

Roll 2 and Rend -3 = 1

The modified dice roll is then compared to the bastiladon's save which is still 1+ and therefore it passes.

Am I getting that right? If so, I think I've been playing save rolls wrong this whoooooole time!

Correct.

[Kamose]

1 hour ago, Eldarain said:

Correct.

Now I know! And knowing is half the battle!

 

[tman3257]

4 hours ago, Kamose said:

So just to clarify, are you saying that the lowest possible value on a die roll, regardless of modifiers, is 1?

Examples:

Roll 2 and Rend -1 =1

Roll 2 and Rend -2 = 1

Roll 2 and Rend -3 = 1

The modified dice roll is then compared to the bastiladon's save which is still 1+ and therefore it passes.

Am I getting that right? If so, I think I've been playing save rolls wrong this whoooooole time!

To be fair, it's never mattered before this.  This is the first time something has a natural 1+ save.  Nothing else in the game can boast that.  Sure you can get to an effective 1+ with modifiers, but remember, those modify the DICE roll.  

This is the first time this interaction has mattered.

[swarmofseals]

Hopefully we'll get the FAQ this week to clear some of this stuff up!

The Shadowstrike Terradon thing is interesting but also not cheap -- 820-1180 depending on the Skink unit sizes, and then you need a priest and starseer on top.  Definitely worth considering though.

I also think that Thunderquake is going to be a potentially strong option. A full kit with 3 salamanders and a skink chief on steg will run 1100-1140 depending on the mix of Stegadons and Bastiladons. 

You *can* do both, but I'm not sure that it's a good idea:

Skink Chief on Stegadon (270)

Skink Priest (70)

Skink Starpriest (120)

Terradon Chief (70)

10 Skinks (60)

20 Skinks (120)

3 Salamanders (240)

9 Terradons (270)

Bastiladon (220)

Stegadon (240)

Thunderquake Temple Host (150)

Shadowstrike Temple Host (150)

 

You have to give up the starseer and either 3 Terradons or 1 salamander to make it fit, but at least you get a nice 4 drop army that has a chance of getting the turn choice.