AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

[OIF4IDVET]

Overall apparently it was ok to nerf the already old book. Which is a shame because I was getting out of stormcast to maybe get an army with decent infantry and Saurus aren’t going to be the “heavy infantry” gw likes to type about them being. Saves are the same, 1 wound regular Saurus. I’d go give it all a read over there. It’s a lot to process. 
 

if you regularly face off against reapers, orruks, or ogres. Don’t expect even a Carnosaur to stand up to their battleline units. 
 

they have great stats and abilities before they even take battalions and buffs, now if our battalions etc don’t seriously help out we aren’t going to be doing anything but going the way dinosaur when we engage them. 
 

take All this with salt, or whisky.

[etlm1987]

On 3/3/2020 at 1:09 PM, madmac said:

From What I see only a very small number of units got buffed.  Summoning got nerfed hard. Kroak makes more sense then a slann

there is a lot of MW spams on 6s to wound- will need to see the whole book to know

 

[madmac]

There's so much to take in that it is hard to summarize.

Overall, summoning definitely doesn't seem worth building around. The Engine can only summon 10 Saurus Warriors at best, and realistic "optimized" summoning is going to be about 3d3 or 4d3 command points per turn, with anything other than 10 skinks requiring at minimum 10 CPs to summon.

Astrolith Bearer overall seems far more skippable. Gives a 6+ shrug bubble, a +1 casting, and another source of d3 summoning points, none of which is likely worth a precious hero slot in most builds, unless you're trying super hard to make summoning a thing.

Slaan and Kroak are much more similar to each other than before, shared spell, shared command ability, ect. It really comes down to potential traits/artifacts on the Slaan vs Kroak's signature spell and other unique abilities.

Hunting Packs are now minimum 80 points for One Shooty Beast and 3 handlers. This makes buying them slightly more sane for $, and the razerdon at least looks slightly buffed but I'm not sure they're cost effective shooting anymore.

Saurus Guard got the coveted 2 Wounds in exchange for everything else you liked about the model, namely their crazy armor save stacking potential and no offensive buffs. They're pretty much Liberators now who can soak wounds for a Slaan, unless the Eternity Warden and/or a battalion brings in a huge buff from left field they are looking pretty eh still.

Trog is turbo-buffed but costs as much as a Slaan in exchange.

Saurus Warriors/Knight scrolls I don't think have been leaked, but based on their point costs and mediocre Saurus Guard I'm not expecting big buffs.

Terradons/Rippers also not revealed, but based on their slashed point costs...

Skink Starseer and Starpriest OTOH made out very well, seem like very solid hero choices. In particular the staff ability on the Starpriest looks like one of the few true hopes for Saurus damage.

Bastiladons are weird. They gained a ton, and lost a ton, overall it feels like a step-sideways.

Stegadons are looking pretty solid from my first glance over.

I haven't seen the Carnosaur changes, but from the chatter they seem only mildly buffed for slightly more consistent damage.

[Calebexnihilo]

These warscrolls.... so disappointing. We got Sylvaneth'ed.

[Oceanic_Eyes]

5 damage Carnosaur bite?

[Calebexnihilo]

4 minutes ago, Oceanic_Eyes said:

5 damage Carnosaur bite?

 

3 attacks, 4/3/ -1 rend.... you will be lucky to get one thru.

[Izotzuhure]

1 minute ago, Calebexnihilo said:

3 attacks, 4/3/ -1 rend.... you will be lucky to get one thru.

If it's any consolation, +1 to hit with the bite against models with 7 wounds or less and the CA could grant another +1 to hit. 

[madmac]

3 Bite Attacks for 5 damage, instead of 5 bites for 3 damage.  Debatable if it's even a buff, other than than synergizing better with the coalesced +1 bite ability.  Also still only -1 rend somehow.  Spear doing flat three damage is nice though.

That's the concern with these leaks really, nearly all the warscrolls look marginally stronger, with summoning being destroyed, leadership much lower unless starborn, battalions much weaker, ect.

I expected summoning, battalions, ect to get wrecked but the compensation so far appears somewhat worryingly restrained.

Edited March 6, 2020 by madmac

[Calebexnihilo]

This must be a "Sam Book"....

[madmac]

Another odd thing is the sheer amount of hero redundancy that this book seems to have. It's nice I guess that you can choose a wide-range of Wizards as your general and still have access to the powerful call comet spell, but it also means that the large number of Wizard options feel redundant when most of them have extremely similar abilities. The Oldblood on Carnasaur and Oldblood on foot have the same command ability, I have to wonder how many Saurus heroes actually have a unique CA.

Edited March 6, 2020 by madmac

[etlm1987]

So things look bad but then certain things are leaking which make me pause and say hold on. Thunder lizard constellation all your thunder lizard get +2 wounds 

[etlm1987]

Also a lot of repetitive cp generation so your bastis shooting are a thing.  440 points and 2 cp is 36 shots at -1 rend 2 dmg at 24 inches 

[Gecktron]

As someone starting Seraphon with this book im pretty happy so far. Most things look nice. If it ends up beeing somewhere around Ogor Mawtribes/Non-Hallowheart CoS, I would be happy. 

[madmac]

Some additional warscroll leaks came out for Warriors, Knights, and Flyers.

Warriors are almost exactly what I predicted earlier in this thread, except the bites do still hit on 5s. Still overall at 90 points for 10 and a horde bonus they will be a good unit with support. Probably the best overall unit in the book for straight fighting.

Knights are still 2 wounds, but with a 4+ save, 8 movement, and two weapon attacks. Lances now do 2 damage when charging. For their price they'll be decent with like 7 attacks/model when played as Coalesced, but unfortunately not a lick of rend or MW on them anywhere.

Terradons seem mostly the same, they gained +2 MV but are now a 6+ save with no swooping ability. Bolas are just 1d6 attacks instead of exploding hits.

Master of The Skies is broken out as a Skink Chief Hero, 5 wounds, 6+ save, skyblade now has rend-1 and his command ability gives +2 to rocks. So basically every Terradon squad will include a Chief for near guaranteed 1d3 mortal wounds per model alpha strike. And then die, because they are all made of tissue paper and have LD 6, 5 for rippers

Rippers seem heavily changed. Still a 5+ save but no added shield ability, keep the claw attacks but no beak. No swooping as with Terradons. Toad is a weird one shot ability that grants re-rolls for one turn, not sure on the details. Exploding hits also seems to be tied to the toad.

Rippers also have a chief variant, similar to the Terradon chief but not sure what his command ability does.

Overall the flyers seem designed to be cheaper but squishier, throw-away units that will 100% die but not before hopefully landing a solid alpha strike.

Edited March 6, 2020 by madmac

[Gecktron]

The english warscrolls are up on the australian webshop. 

The different command abilities look pretty good. +1 to-hit from the Scar-Veterans, +1 to-wound from the Sunblood, exploding 6s from the one on cold-one. And judging from all the CP generation abilities, Seraphon will be able to make good use of all of them!

[madmac]

Oh, and all the Warscrolls are up on the NZ website now, so have at it.

Preliminary notes:

Skinks have no retreat ability, no other notable buffs. Pure chaff.

Chameleon Skinks have to deepstrike 9" away

Skink Priests only buff Skink units

Sunblood gives +1 wound rolls

Scarvet on Cold One grants exploding 6s to hit, making him surprisingly useful now

Eternity Warden does nothing. Absolutely nothing. He can bodyguard for Slaan, which Temple Guard already do, and he gives +1 to Hit for Temple Guard as a CA which is utterly pointless because the Old One does the exact same thing, for all Saurus Units. I guess you could stack the two for +2 to hit but meh, they already hit on 3s and with subfaction +1 to hit on charges. Spending the second point on +1 wound or exploding 6s is far more valuable.

Scarvet on Carnosaur has the same command ability as Scar Vet on Cold One

Ripper Chief CA is +1 attacks for rippers. All Rippers have the 2 attacks on 6s to hit. Confirmed blot toad just gets dropped at the beginning of a combat phase one per battle, nearby rippers re-roll all hits that turn.

Edited March 6, 2020 by madmac

[Calebexnihilo]

This right here is frustrating rules writing:

Armoured Crest:  At the start of the combat phase, you can pick 1 enemy unit within 3" of this model and that has up to 5 models. If you do so, until the end of that phase, add 1 to save rolls for attacks made by that unit that target this model.

JUST GIVE US A 3+ save on our giant dinosaur monsters instead of this dumb thing that slows down the game.

 

[madmac]

In general, I would say the most important hero in any list is the Skink Starpriest, maybe even two of them. He has a useful unique spell, helps generate CP, and gives a single unit a turn mortals wounds on 6s to wound which is absolutely vital to really leveraging the low-rend attack spam most of the army is build around. Star Seer is also valuable for his +1 save spell.

From there, it depends on if you are going Skink or Saurus. Skink Priest, Skink Chief on Stegadon and/or Terradon are extremely powerful force multipliers for skink units but do nothing for Saurus.

Likewise, the holy trinity for Saurus heroes is Oldblood, Sunblood/Scar vet for +1 Hit/Wound and exploding sixes.

If you want a big caster one of either Slaan/Kroak/Troglodon

Least useful heroes are the Ripper Chief, (mostly because Terradons are just better) Eternity Warden, and IMO Astrolith Bearer just because his bubble is useful but outweighed by all the other powerful command/support abilities, and his summoning bonus is starbound only and summoning is useless now anyway.

[Jaskier]

As a tournament player who doesn't have the pleasure of owning a Seraphon army, I'm both incredibly happy for you all, and very worried about seeing the builds this book is capable of! Don't buy into the pessimism, this book is incredibly strong with some absurd damage output. I'm certain that Terradons and Salamanders in particular are going to give me nightmares to fight against, but simultaneously it looks like all the Saurus options, Kroxigor, Skinks, etc are all super viable and scary with the right support now which is awesome to see!

You guys made out very well, and we haven't even seen all the sub-allegiances/artefacts/etc! I'm excited to see all the crazy builds you guys come up with The best tip I can give to ruin someone's day is abuse the fact that the Skink Starpriests' ability affects ALL attacks a friendly Seraphon unit makes...so those extra attacks your Saurus get for being Coalesced and having 15 or more models? Those 80 Boltspitter shots and 80 melee attacks from that blob of 40 Skinks? Those 7 attacks PER MODEL from that squad of Cold One Knights? Yeah, they all do mortal wounds on unmodified 6s to-wound, and there's tonnes of ways to improve your to-hit rolls to maximize how many of those you throw out. Fun times! (but not for your opponents ) 

 

Also, a cheeky one for those who may not have noticed yet; Terradons drop their bombs after any move, NOT a normal move. Cue dropping bombs on the charge! Combine with Fangs of Sotek and it's next to impossible to avoid a Terradon alpha-strike, and those bombs get dropped on a 2+ (each dealing D3 mortal wounds!) if you've got the snazzy new Terradon Chief following them around! 12 of those with the aforementioned Starpriest buff will utterly ruin anyone's day, and it's next to impossible to hide from them - even on turn one! 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Jaskier

[PJetski]

Losers:
Chameleon Skinks, summoning, EOTG, Ripperdactyls

Changed but roughly break even:
EOTG

Winners:
Everything else

This army looks fantastic and that's before we see the allegiance/battalions/spells/etc. Can't wait to see the full spoiler tomorrow when reviews go up.

[Beliman]

17 hours ago, OIF4IDVET said:

I would head over to Lustria online and check out the Seraphon rumor thread. Doesn’t seem to promising is all I’m gonna sadly say. 

Look again. From zero to hero in a pair of hours. And the book is not already our! A lot of artifacts, traits, etc... are still missing and people are already enjoying the warscrolls and battalions.

[SireScott]

I need to see more detail but this seems potentially a very nice book. My initial view is ripperdactyls are poor. But for 80 points you get 9 wounds moving 16 inches and putting out a good number of low quality attacks. Seems that they would be considered good in many armies, they are just utterly outclassed by terradons. And whilst skinks are worse than before 60 points for a 10 wound skirmish screen still seems useful. 

[Kasper]

So personally I always liked the idea of Thunderquake and wanted to run something similar in the new book. I was curious what the new shooting will be like for the bigger dinos and the razordon vs salamandar. 

From what I can tell, the only ways to buff shooting is through the Skink Priest CA that gives +1 to hit for a SKINK unit. If you take the Thunder Lizard host you can spend a CP to shoot twice with a Bastilladon, which would effectively just double the damage output. 

The Skink Starpriest has a passive ability where you pick a unit and on unmodified 6s to wound you deal 1 MW in addition to any damage. It is really minor for the bigger stuff and it is best used on big groups of Skinks tbh.

With Bastilladon from the old book and for the Razordon I have assumed 7 average attacks from 2D6 profiles.

 

The Salamandars are looking really awesome, although they only have 12" range compared to the 18" from Razordons. The Bastilladon is also holding up fairly reasonable compared to the old book considering you can potentially shoot twice, though it now degrades, it shouldnt be that big of a deal the first couple of rounds if they arent in the front.

40 skinks seem rather insane, especially in the starborne fang of sotek host where you get a CA to use at the end of the opponent's charge phase, which allows you to shoot and then on a 4+ make a retreat move, effectively shooting twice per battleround.

[madmac]

4 hours ago, Beliman said:

Look again. From zero to hero in a pair of hours. And the book is not already our! A lot of artifacts, traits, etc... are still missing and people are already enjoying the warscrolls and battalions.

The artifacts are mostly bad as it turns out, but that's not rare for these books.

Overall, I think Seraphon will be around Mawtribes tier, with a heavy competitive focus on Skink armies. Ironically Skinks are still greatly superior to Saurus, except now they're just better at fighting instead of focusing on summoning and board control. There's so many good options for powerful skink based armies now.

Saurus Warriors and Knights got just enough oomph from spells and CAs ect to be viable, though I don't know if they can reach as far as competitive. Saurus Guard, bizarrely just got absolutely shafted. In exchange for +1 wound they lost literally all of their unique synergies from the first battletome. No more +1 save for friendly heroes, no special battalion for another + save and d3 damage, no more +1 attacks from Eternity Warden...they literally are just the weakest Saurus unit for points now. Carnosaurs are slightly improved but still very iffy.

The Skink heroes are basically all incredible, the Starpriest is the # MVP in the book and the Starseer is probably #2. The Stegadon hero is also a must for monster armies, the Terradon Chief turns Terradons into alpha strike monsters, the Ripper Chief is really the only way to make good use of rippers now...

Saurus builds will be entirely dependent on Coalesced/Coatal bonuses backed by CA spamming Saurus heroes and the Skink MVP casters. In terms of actual stats they barely improved at all, so it's really down to increased synergy for them to do anything. Their heroes also basically didn't noticeably improve in stats, they just have usable CAs now. 

Eternity Warden is officially useless, his new warscroll does nothing and his only battalion is the 4000 point one that will never see play. Astrolith Bearer went from indispensable to...highly dispensable.

Slaan also looks a bit iffy, IMO. Our spell lore didn't improve much from the GHB, summoning is no longer a real thing, spending 260 points on him is a big ask. Kroak is probably better now in most cases and not that much more expensive.

[Beliman]

@madmac don't get me wrong, I don't play Seraphons (I'm OTP Kharadrons). I just pointed that people go from gloom and doom to shout how awesome are their toys in less than an hour.