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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

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I'm just happy that it's quite unlikely I'll ever see Kroak on a table. :) I played today against a Tzeentch army with three units of flamers, ehich is quite a good example of the general power level at our tables :)

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5 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

If you have to take a specific artifact just to counter a single list then it is broken.  Sure its no big deal if you are doing it down at a club, but going to an event and having to have every army take that one artifact just to counter one list is 100% broken. 

It's not just that list, it counters any spell heavy army. I think we will see a lot more spells in this edition. Yes it's super power full. Does it need a slight tweak of course. If kroak gets +1 to cast he still needs a 6,7,8 to get off all three. Needs to get off bale wind and spell portal.  On another note I've been playing against kroak since the last edition. It did get more powerfull but not unbeatable.

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5 minutes ago, Ebrick said:

It's not just that list, it counters any spell heavy army. I think we will see a lot more spells in this edition.

Oh no doubt. Stormcast for example seem to really like the Comet endless spell. And it seems like every other list no matter the faction uses Cogs and/or spell portal. for magic shenanigans.

Edited by kenshin620

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The balewind doesnt give you +1 to casting rolls any more, just +1 spells to cast and +6" range on the spells.  But he can get a +1 from the Astrolith bearer and he can use his command ability multiple times on himself giving him a large amount of free rerolls, if you want to go full cheese take another Slann for +1 from the constellation.  It really isnt hard to pull off a triple cast of celestial deliverance, and you can also get conjuration points from the 2 spells he doesnt cast that round, 3 if you are using cogs as well.  Then throw in an Engine for an additional summon.

In isolation, you're right, Kroak isnt that bad.  But its just like everything else with Seraphon, you start piling on the synergies to increase his effectiveness and thats when things get out of control.

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3 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

 

In isolation, you're right, Kroak isnt that bad.  But its just like everything else with Seraphon, you start piling on the synergies to increase his effectiveness and thats when things get out of control.

Completely agree!

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Lens of Refraction is an insane hard counter to Kroak. It's very strong against any army with wizards that do 1 to D3mw spells (there are VERY few d6 mortal wound spells) so expect to see a lot of it in tournaments. It will be very easy for any army to bully Kroak out of the top tables.

4x Engine of the Gods is a problem that needs to be addressed. Summoning 80 skinks per turn with very little opportunity cost is not good for the game.

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Engine of gods is pretty easy to fix. Just make it like screaming bell, in other words, that summoning works only once per game (regardless of how many engines you got) and if you roll the summoning result later, you get to pick the result of your choice (lower than 18 obviously).

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35 minutes ago, angrycontra said:

Engine of gods is pretty easy to fix. Just make it like screaming bell, in other words, that summoning works only once per game (regardless of how many engines you got) and if you roll the summoning result later, you get to pick the result of your choice (lower than 18 obviously).

That would work, but I would rather see them limit summoning to once per turn, regardless of how many different EOTG roll that result. I think it's fine to have a chance to summon 20 skinks per turn - once per game that's a lame ability, but doing it 4 times per turn is too much.

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I agree. Once per game would be lame. I'd rather have it generate summon points (2d6 or so) on that result, that would help a lot.

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Guys no offense but people got overly excited and judge things as if we really have a clue on how they work yet.

What have happened to the EotG is simply that it has a point to be seen on the table as its warscroll didn't make sense before.

Summoning sure is cool, but is it really SO strong ? If you put 4 EotG you have good chances for summon, yes. You also invested 880p - 45% of your army for it on 4 monsters that go down fast and you also get many drops count -> your opponent will most likely be able to choose who goes 1st + he might strike them - or even worse the slann before being able to move.

Or just charge with something like a 30 man unit of tzaangors and kill 2 with ease on a round of combat after shooting down our skinks.

 

I definitely believe it will be strong for casual games where the opponents don't really try that hard on their list building or choices *which is stil awesome, I do that as well from times to times as it can be really joyable too*, but being in a highly competitive environment, I can reassure you that no one thinks that this is too strong or anything similar :P

 

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So a few of my locals have got back into AoS and I sold all my old fantasy models....

 

My choice is between Seraphon, IronJawz and Fyreslayers. The dorfs seem great but model variety and insane price have put me off. Ironjawz are easy to build with SC boxes but limited playstyle, which leads me here. For casual play, how does this sound?

Oldblood on Carnosaur

Scarvet on carnosaur

scar vet on cold one

slaan starmaster

Engine of the Gods

20 saurus warriors

5 cold one knights

5 cold one knights

5 cold one knights

bastiladon

firelance starhost

 

gives me shooting, some combat, some big beasties (which i like). I would have preferred 2 bastiladon, but I hear EotG is great...

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3 hours ago, Seraphage said:

Guys no offense but people got overly excited and judge things as if we really have a clue on how they work yet.

What have happened to the EotG is simply that it has a point to be seen on the table as its warscroll didn't make sense before.

Summoning sure is cool, but is it really SO strong ? If you put 4 EotG you have good chances for summon, yes. You also invested 880p - 45% of your army for it on 4 monsters that go down fast and you also get many drops count -> your opponent will most likely be able to choose who goes 1st + he might strike them - or even worse the slann before being able to move.

Or just charge with something like a 30 man unit of tzaangors and kill 2 with ease on a round of combat after shooting down our skinks.

 

I definitely believe it will be strong for casual games where the opponents don't really try that hard on their list building or choices *which is stil awesome, I do that as well from times to times as it can be really joyable too*, but being in a highly competitive environment, I can reassure you that no one thinks that this is too strong or anything similar :P

 

I disagree, because of this: Lists with 3+ EotGs are gifts that keep on giving. They limit enemy tactics to: "1drop list with Alpha strike or you are toast". After that there are quite likely too many Seraphon on the board that you can still win.

So yes, people in tournament environments will find ways to cope with it, but it limits the amount of competitively viable lists of all armies severely, and that's bad for the game.

Outside of competitive environments it is as bad, because if a Seraphon player does play those lists he is "that guy" and/or  nobody has fun in the game, and not using them isn't fun either, because nobody likes to have models they cannot play.

I am an example for that. I play Shadowstrike with Terradons instead of Rippers and without Kroak (I haven't even painted him yet because I don't really intend to play him) and _still_ people are calling my list cheesy and I still win most of my games with it. If I started using Kroak and Rippers people would stop playing against me, and so will they if I bring an EotG now. That's the opposite of fun.

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3 hours ago, Aginor said:

I disagree, because of this: Lists with 3+ EotGs are gifts that keep on giving. They limit enemy tactics to: "1drop list with Alpha strike or you are toast". After that there are quite likely too many Seraphon on the board that you can still win.

So yes, people in tournament environments will find ways to cope with it, but it limits the amount of competitively viable lists of all armies severely, and that's bad for the game.

Outside of competitive environments it is as bad, because if a Seraphon player does play those lists he is "that guy" and/or  nobody has fun in the game, and not using them isn't fun either, because nobody likes to have models they cannot play.

I am an example for that. I play Shadowstrike with Terradons instead of Rippers and without Kroak (I haven't even painted him yet because I don't really intend to play him) and _still_ people are calling my list cheesy and I still win most of my games with it. If I started using Kroak and Rippers people would stop playing against me, and so will they if I bring an EotG now. That's the opposite of fun.

To expand on this a little: Of course I am sure that the top competitive players will even find non-1drop lists that will work. Those guys are very creative. So in the long run it might not even be that bad in a competitive environment. But I am still pretty sure that it will hurt many lower-level 'metas'.

It is a fine line between being happy about a buff for my army and feeling like 'that guy'.

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Behold the spooky lizard deep strike! (Ulgu Dracothions Tail)

Slann - General, Vast Intellect

Engine of the Gods

Astrolith

Oldblood on Carnosaur - Dimensional Blade (Rend-3)

Oldblood - Light of Dracothion (guaranteed unbind)

Scarvet - Blade of Judgment (Hit6+ D6mw vs Hero/Monster)

5x Knights

5x Knights

5x Knights

220 Stegadon

150 Firelance

80 Dracothions Tail

60 Cogs

2 CP

1900/2000

Deep strike all your heroes into play using Dracothions Tail, use Cogs and Firelance bonus to get a +5" charge. Teleport Stegadon forward, move him D6" using Skink Alpha ability, and get a +2 charge from cogs.

Spend command points to boost all Saurus hero attacks with the Carnosaur. Scarvet with 9 attacks doing D6mw on hit6+, attacking again on 4+, then again on 6+.

Oldblood with 9 attacks at Rend-3. Astrolith lets you reroll hits, Oldblood lets you reroll wound1.

Slann + Engine provide magical/summoning support and let you pivot to a different strategy if the need arises.

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8 minutes ago, PJetski said:

 

 

Behold the spooky lizard deep strike! (Ulgu Dracothions Tail)

Slann - General, Vast Intellect

Engine of the Gods

Astrolith

Oldblood on Carnosaur - Dimensional Blade (Rend-3)

Oldblood - Light of Dracothion (guaranteed unbind)

Scarvet - Blade of Judgment (Hit6+ D6mw vs Hero/Monster)

5x Knights

5x Knights

5x Knights

220 Stegadon

150 Firelance

80 Dracothions Tail

60 Cogs

2 CP

1900/2000

Deep strike all your heroes into play using Dracothions Tail, use Cogs and Firelance bonus to get a +5" charge. Teleport Stegadon forward, move him D6" using Skink Alpha ability, and get a +2 charge from cogs.

Spend command points to boost all Saurus hero attacks with the Carnosaur. Scarvet with 9 attacks doing D6mw on hit6+, attacking again on 4+, then again on 6+.

Oldblood with 9 attacks at Rend-3. Astrolith lets you reroll hits, Oldblood lets you reroll wound1.

Slann + Engine provide magical/summoning support and let you pivot to a different strategy if the need arises.

Sounds like a super fun list... Although I'd put more old blood on carnoasaurs in because I've always wanted to see a big T Rex list.

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On 7/9/2018 at 4:23 PM, Drofnum said:

Even against non-chaos you are averaging ~45 wounds if you can hit 10 units.  105 wounds is ludicrous but 45 is still enough to cripple an army first turn.  Anyone saying its not broken just hasnt used it or played against it imo.

 

Edit:  For reference my KO army has 121 wounds, my Idoneth 105 and the Seraphon list I tested this with was at 110, I believe. You're losing 1/3-1/2 your army in a single magic phase, to one model.

I agree that the rule of one needs to be put back in place on Kroak but its not exactly one model doing all that. It is actually:

Kroak

At least one Astrolith, probably 2 or more

Balewind Vortex

So we are looking at 650+ points and at that level you need hot dice indeed to get all the spells off, which is why you will probably go deep and invest in more astrolith bearers.

I think its even worse than the old version of Kroaknado (which was pretty un-fun for some opponents) but it is not really more broken than the grot doing 64 damage per hit or a few other shonky things that can happen right now. Some more rules of one will calm the whole game down nicely. Kroak is not specifically the problem, the lack of brakes on the stacking pain-train is the problem.

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On 7/9/2018 at 5:23 PM, Drofnum said:

If you have to take a specific artifact just to counter a single list then it is broken.  Sure its no big deal if you are doing it down at a club, but going to an event and having to have every army take that one artifact just to counter one list is 100% broken. 

That item is looking good against quite a few lists, I would regard it as almost an auto-take. But then I will probably be playing a lot of games against Tzeentch and watching my beautiful lizards getting transformed into nasty Chaos monstrosities makes me sad.

Unless you are playing Chaos Daemons the lens of refraction pretty much does solve the Kroak problem and is also handy against many magic-heavy armies. You would need  a really strong reason to take anything else unless you know your local meta has a shortage of wizards. 

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3 hours ago, tokek said:

I agree that the rule of one needs to be put back in place on Kroak but its not exactly one model doing all that. It is actually:

Kroak

At least one Astrolith, probably 2 or more

Balewind Vortex

So we are looking at 650+ points and at that level you need hot dice indeed to get all the spells off, which is why you will probably go deep and invest in more astrolith bearers.

I think its even worse than the old version of Kroaknado (which was pretty un-fun for some opponents) but it is not really more broken than the grot doing 64 damage per hit or a few other shonky things that can happen right now. Some more rules of one will calm the whole game down nicely. Kroak is not specifically the problem, the lack of brakes on the stacking pain-train is the problem.

I'm not sure that you even need the vortex anymore. I am thinking of this version.


Heroes
Lord Kroak 450
Slaan -general vast intellect 260
Astrolith Bearer, incandescent rectrices 160
Skink priest, priestly trappings 80

Battleline 
40 skinks, boltspitters 240
10 skinks, boltspitters 60
10 skinks, boltspitters 60

Behemoths 
Bastillidon, solar engine 280
Bastillidon, solar engine 280

Endless Spells
Chronocogs 60
Umbral spell portal 60

Total: 1990

Deploy with the big squad of skinks bubble wrapping kroak and friends. Plant the banner, Slaan casts Curse of Fate on himself to try and guarantee the +1 to cast celestial rite, plus Kroak re-rolls. Priest does his dance for re-rolling saves in a bubble. Cast chronocogs and spell portal. Kroak does his thing, and the slaan summons and punts things where they need to go.  If deployed right there will be no room to deploy predatory spells back through the portal at you, and you have two possible spots for Kroak to nova from. Then you have a barrier of skinks and bastillidons with rerolls to hit and saves to walk through, plus any summoned fodder.

Seems really strong to me. Possible 8 spells a turn, 7 unbind attempts anywhere on the board, nasty shooting, mobility, and summoning. It checks a lot of boxes.

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28 minutes ago, bonzai said:

I'm not sure that you even need the vortex anymore. I am thinking of this version.


Heroes
Lord Kroak 450
Slaan -general vast intellect 260
Astrolith Bearer, incandescent rectrices 160
Skink priest, priestly trappings 80

Battleline 
40 skinks, boltspitters 240
10 skinks, boltspitters 60
10 skinks, boltspitters 60

Behemoths 
Bastillidon, solar engine 280
Bastillidon, solar engine 280

Endless Spells
Chronocogs 60
Umbral spell portal 60

Total: 1990

Deploy with the big squad of skinks bubble wrapping kroak and friends. Plant the banner, Slaan casts Curse of Fate on himself to try and guarantee the +1 to cast celestial rite, plus Kroak re-rolls. Priest does his dance for re-rolling saves in a bubble. Cast chronocogs and spell portal. Kroak does his thing, and the slaan summons and punts things where they need to go.  If deployed right there will be no room to deploy predatory spells back through the portal at you, and you have two possible spots for Kroak to nova from. Then you have a barrier of skinks and bastillidons with rerolls to hit and saves to walk through, plus any summoned fodder.

Seems really strong to me. Possible 8 spells a turn, 7 unbind attempts anywhere on the board, nasty shooting, mobility, and summoning. It checks a lot of boxes.

That's a fine looking army list. One minor detail about the skink priest though. I never rely on them.  I don't know about you but all of my skink priests are atheists.  😁

They consistently fail EVERY SINGLE prayer attempt. Last game my skink priests (yes, plural) each failed a 4+ roll five times.  They do this every game, with or without rerolls, doesn't matter. 😤 It's become a joke at my FLGS. 

Edited by Kamose

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2 hours ago, Kamose said:

That's a fine looking army list. One minor detail about the skink priest though. I never rely on them.  I don't know about you but all of my skink priests are atheists.  😁

They consistently fail EVERY SINGLE prayer attempt. Last game my skink priests (yes, plural) each failed a 4+ roll five times.  They do this every game, with or without rerolls, doesn't matter. 😤 It's become a joke at my FLGS. 

So true ! Hahaha ! That silly +4 never comes along ! 😂

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7 hours ago, Kamose said:

That's a fine looking army list. One minor detail about the skink priest though. I never rely on them.  I don't know about you but all of my skink priests are atheists.  😁

They consistently fail EVERY SINGLE prayer attempt. Last game my skink priests (yes, plural) each failed a 4+ roll five times.  They do this every game, with or without rerolls, doesn't matter. 😤 It's become a joke at my FLGS. 

If he doesn't pull his weight I'll swap him for a star priest. I've played enough games against a friends eternal star host with near constant 2+ rerollable saves to have some respect for them.

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What am I missing about engine of the gods? My math it's a 16% chance to get an extra turn or summon some units. If you use Kroak's command ability you can get that up to 34% (factoring in the probability of kroak getting the rererolls and assuming you don't waste the rerolls when you have a good result or summoning is very improbable.  But Kroak can only do that for 1 EoTG. 

Are additional EoTG really worth the point investments for a 16% chance to summon units each turn?  Is there a trick here I missed?  

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Guys with new aos2 I have 2 questions:

-can I  use same command ability more then one time per turn if I got command points?

- if yes : my old blood on carno can buff like 2 times ( for exemple) with his command ability.. It says " until the end of the phase" that mean I can use +2 attack only in my turn right? When it's my opponent turn I can't benefit from buff? Thx all:)

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In response to the EoTG question:

 

If there is a SLANN with 10", you roll 4 dice and drop which ever one you want.

Edited by Kelbesq

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