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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

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46 minutes ago, Ajmaus said:

I am going to warn you that there us a chance that a lot of seraphon get squated so if you jump ship to lizardmen remember they have a lot of old units from fantasy that may not make it to a new book

I actually went ahead and started a Kharadron Overlords army. They are different yet still familiar in a way. Probably jumping from one dumpster fire to another competitivewise, but I’m playing a big gamble on their 2.0 battletome being decent.

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Took a break from coding to finish painting my Dread Saurian

IMG_0047.jpg

Anyone have any tips for using this guy in a game? I feel like his large base size is going to severely limit his effectiveness.

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Yes the large base size can definitely be an issue. 

I've used mine a lot and I'd say try to keep it as a reserve for a turn or two, and try and target just monsters to get the reroll 1's on both hit/wound as they're a big help. Plus when It's  come to it being outnumbered it can honestly go down pretty quick if the three bite attacks dont' take down a lot of a unit. 

I'd also suggest having a priest and starpriest, -1 to hit cast, 6+ double damage on the wound for the bite can make it a lot harder for those monsters with extra saves to survive even just one bite and the claws/tail finishing it off. The priest for the re-roll charge and saves. If you can deepstrike it with a teleport it can often divert attention heavily i've found, even if it can't kill much in the end.  

Also really lovely paint job. Mine's a bit basic at present but i'm hoping when I finally get to stage 2 with my seraphons painting that it'll look alot better. 

Edited by SolomonHelsing
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Hi guys 

Just after some advice,

Teaching some intro games on thursday and one of the 2 players wants to buy into seraphon, so I'm looking for advice on his first 1000points worth of purchases also expansion to 2000points so that he doesn't end up buying lots of bits he won't need. 

It needs to be a decent force he's quite a competitive 40k player, and some of the local lists are pretty strong that he will play against regular.

we actually have no local seraphon players and i'd like to help him as much as possible so any advice much appreciated.

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4 hours ago, TimM85 said:

Hi guys 

Just after some advice,

Teaching some intro games on thursday and one of the 2 players wants to buy into seraphon, so I'm looking for advice on his first 1000points worth of purchases also expansion to 2000points so that he doesn't end up buying lots of bits he won't need. 

It needs to be a decent force he's quite a competitive 40k player, and some of the local lists are pretty strong that he will play against regular.

we actually have no local seraphon players and i'd like to help him as much as possible so any advice much appreciated.

A Slann is a must have (maybe not at 1k, but def at 2k).

Shadowstrike is our offensive battalion (6 Ripperdactyls, 2 units of Skinks, and a Skink StarPriest)

Thunderquake is our tanky shooting battalion (Engine of the Gods, two Bastiladons, and kroxigor or Razordons)

Build around whichever of those two battalions he likes, and scale from there.

More Skinks is always sound advice for Seraphon players.

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2 hours ago, Calebexnihilo said:

A Slann is a must have (maybe not at 1k, but def at 2k).

Shadowstrike is our offensive battalion (6 Ripperdactyls, 2 units of Skinks, and a Skink StarPriest)

Thunderquake is our tanky shooting battalion (Engine of the Gods, two Bastiladons, and kroxigor or Razordons)

Build around whichever of those two battalions he likes, and scale from there.

More Skinks is always sound advice for Seraphon players.

wicked thankyou

 

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I would disagree and say a slaan is even more essential at 1k.  Seraphon summoning it very strong in 1k since you basically summon the same number of points at 1k as you do at 2k.

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8 hours ago, willange said:

I would disagree and say a slaan is even more essential at 1k.  Seraphon summoning it very strong in 1k since you basically summon the same number of points at 1k as you do at 2k.

Definitely. Summoning is very strong at 1k.

My favorite 1k list:
EoTG with Ethereal Amulet (General with master of star rituals for reroll saves)
Skink Priest (second chance at reroll saves onto the EoTG)
Skink StarPriest (spell lore)
2x10 Skinks
6 Rippers
Shadowstrike

That way at 1k you have a tanky hero/monster (4+ unrendable rerolling saves), some summoning from EOTG, spells from starpriest, and Rippers that will remove just about anything. A good all around 1k list!

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I was top Seraphon player... yet went 2-3 on the weekend! Lol

Some brutal matchups that countered my list pretty hard.

I ran my normal list with Shadowstrike, 2 EoTG, a Bastiladon, Astrolith, Slann, and a Purple Sun!

List was built to deal with hordes. Only faced one horde all weekend.

Game 1 - 04:55 - vs IronJaws in Battle for the Pass
Game 2 - 17:17 - vs Fyreslayers in Places of Arcane Power
Game 3 - 26:58 - vs Skaven in Starstrike
Game 4 - 38:33 - vs IronJaws in Duality of Death
Game 5 - 47:18 - vs Khorne in Scorched Earth
Wrapup - 59:51 - Complain about Seraphon... lol

 

https://youtu.be/HS9HH7zeiQE

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The sad truth about Shadowstrike is that it's too easy for opponents to play around once they understand what it does. Thunderquake is a much better competitive list.

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4 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The sad truth about Shadowstrike is that it's too easy for opponents to play around once they understand what it does. Thunderquake is a much better competitive list.

Shadowstrike is the only consistent damage dealer I feel like we have. It just about always causes 50 save rolls and holds up their movement turn 1. Downside is that it is useless against factions participating in the "Activation Wars". 

The Thunderquake lists actually did worse than me this GT.... And they are run by good players.

Thunderquake is a great battalion that is useless until turn 2, has very spikey damage, high drops, and is too slow. Bubble can only move 5" per turn.

But yes .. Against some lists on some battleplans, Thunderquake is invincible!

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Most people that run Thunderquake do it with 2 Bastiladon - this is the wrong way to approach the list since the Stegadon + Bastiladon combo is vastly superior. Bastiladons are too slow, their shooting is too unreliable, and their melee is too weak to justify spending that many points on a pair of 8 wound monsters.

I wouldn't call it "worthless until turn 2", since you can be casting anti-horde spells, breaking artefacts, tossing Purple Sun and Aethervoid Pendulum straight into the heart of the enemy army, and reroll hits on shooting on turn 1. If you are facing an alpha strike list you can easily screen with skinks/knights and counterattack with our insane 12" artillery,  you can beat other shooting armies if you use your teleports properly, and if you face an attrition army you can just start spawning Razordons.

I think when you build and play it properly Thunderquake is one of the top 5 (maybe even top 3) lists in the game.

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You aren't casting all those spells if you plan on summoning anything. And most Thunderquake lists (esp in Draco Tail) are very light on bodies. You must summon to stay in the game.

Thunderquake is good, don't get me wrong. But def not a Top 3 list in the game (statistically proven).

I do like one Steggy in it instead of two Bastiladons. Steggies help with our movement shenanigans.

My next list squeezes in Shadowstrike (6 rippers) with Thunderquake. 4 drops. Should be fun!

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Hi guys thank you for the previous advice, recommendations were really helpful when I took the newb through his first game, his biggest fear getting into Seraphon now is the age of the models, from armies I've seen they stand up pretty well, but then he started taking about finest etc and Slanns always being sold out etc and worry some models may get squatted as their old and GW just did the ultimate fear mongering with the free cities some advice I could give on this would be great as i'm not to clued up with they old lizards and its not something that has ever effected my choices as I have an elf, and dwarf armies and even my khorne has some classics in it

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On 8/21/2019 at 7:24 AM, PJetski said:

I think when you build and play it properly Thunderquake is one of the top 5 (maybe even top 3) lists in the game.

I\ve seen you comment that TQ is a solid list on a few occasions. I have a bunch of Seraphon back from when I played 6th ed and never bothered to do anything with them since the battletome seems so weak and people constantly rank it as very low tier. Do you have any posts or guides on how to play and build an effective TQ list?

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3 hours ago, umpac said:

I\ve seen you comment that TQ is a solid list on a few occasions. I have a bunch of Seraphon back from when I played 6th ed and never bothered to do anything with them since the battletome seems so weak and people constantly rank it as very low tier. Do you have any posts or guides on how to play and build an effective TQ list?

The most effective way I have found to play Thunderquake is to treat it as a shooting list with good melee options. You build it something like this:

Slann (Double teleport)
Astrolith (Defensive artefact, usually Retrices)
Starpriest
EOTG (Defensive artefact, usually Ignax's Scales)
Bastiladon (Laser)
Stegadon (Bow)
3x Salamander 
3x Razordon
Handlers
Minimum Battleline (either Skinks or Saurus Knights)
Endless Spells (Some combination of Purple Sun, Cogs, Balewind, Pendulum, Geminids)

The list is all about utilizing all the tricks that Seraphon has up its sleeve to dismantle your opponents key pieces, while putting disposable screens at your opponents big damage dealers to give you more time to disrupt them. Rerolling all hits, wounds, and saves on your key units makes it very consistent damage output. Having +2 to cast makes your casting very reliable. Being able to teleport wizards into range to cast poweful short range endless spells (with +1 from constellation) is incredible. I love finishing a round with 3 predatory endless spells on the table - I usually prefer going second so I can move the Geminids/Purple Sun and Pendulum again.

I rarely summon with this list. I prefer to fish for D6 mortal wounds ability on the engine and casting realm/endless spells with the Slann. It's worth banking some points to summon chameleon skinks in round 2 or 3 then steal objectives on the following turn. I use vassal casting to stay out of unbind range and then use the range bonuses from Astrolith and Balewind to toss spells from a huge distance. Realm spells are usually pretty terrible because they have limited range but when you are casting them from >50" away they become really good!

I like running Saurus Knights over Skinks because they never die to battleshock, they have a guaranteed 14" fly move (great for taking objectives), they have a 5+ save instead of a 6+, and their damage output isn't that bad for an 80pt battleline unit.

I usually put Salamanders in the battalion because I prefer the increased accuracy on their brutal Rend-2 D6 attacks, but you can also put the Razordons there instead because they benefit more from rerollable wounds and they can easily get to 3+ rerollable save in cover.

The Starpriest is great in this list. Sometimes I run two because Starlight is a great spell, and having another wizard for more Endless Spells is great.

Stegadon is really important in this list. Not only can it move the Bastiladon an extra D6" every turn but it also allows the Stegadon to move itself after teleporting for an easier charge. Between their shooting, Rend-3 horn attacks, and 3d6 stomps you can win games by teleporting a Stegadon to wipe a battleline unit off an objective and claim it.

It's not an easy list to play. It takes a lot of experience and requires complete knowledge of your opponents army. It has above-average shooting, magic, defenses, mobility, and still performs well in melee so when you play it right the incredible flexibility and huge back of tricks makes it one of the strongest lists in the game.

Edited by PJetski
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Just don't field Thunderquake expecting to shoot your enemy off the table. It is NOT a good shooting battalion. It is a tank battalion.

Example list above will not shoot much off the table. Especially turn 1 (shooting happens before Thunderquake perks start which is in the charge phase).

Bastiladon - avg 7 shots (4+/3+/-1/2)
Statistically produces about 2 saves at -1 rend.

Stegadon - 3 shots (4+/3+/-1/D3)
Maybe 1 forced save roll.

Against a valuable target (3+ hero), statistically 2 dmg will make it thru.

So 1000 pts produces 2 dmg... if the enemy is in range.

This is not good.

The battalion gets better by adding the Banner (160 pts) and gets better in Turn 2 when you can reroll wound rolls from the battalion.

I only say all this to temper expectations that this is an ALPHA shooting list. It is not. It is not top tier shooting.

Also... the entire battalion relies on the EoTG staying alive. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take Ethereal Amulet on the EoTG in Thunderquake.

I love the battalion and will continue to play it. Some lists can't do anything against it. It is fun! 

I just wish the perks happened in Hero Phase so you could do some tricks like he mentioned above. Like teleporting the Stegadon. If you currently teleport a unit from the battalion away, you will lose the perks (since they happen in charge phase).

Seraphon is solidly mid-tier in the current meta, but with a few tweaks (whenever they update us) and we could be top tier again ('member Kroaknado! lol)

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With full rerolls you average much more than 2 saves on a Bastiladon...

Why are you ignoring the shooting from Salamanders/Razordons? Why are you ignoring the D6 mortal wounds from EOTG? Why are you ignoring the damage from spells? It really sounds like you are doing something very wrong.

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32 minutes ago, PJetski said:

With full rerolls you average much more than 2 saves on a Bastiladon...

Why are you ignoring the shooting from Salamanders/Razordons? Why are you ignoring the D6 mortal wounds from EOTG? Why are you ignoring the damage from spells? It really sounds like you are doing something very wrong.

But you aren't getting full rerolls turn 1. Against a competent player, they will just line up 26" away and you won't even get to shoot (assuming they let you go first).

Razordons - Got nerfed. Full unit = 6D6 shots. Ok. Lets use a teleport on them. They will statistically cause an average of 7 saves. No rend. Not scary.

Salamanders - Teleport them... and they can't shoot. You have to waste both teleports for them and the handlers. Ok. Statistically a full unit will cause 1 save at -2 rend for an average of 3.5 dmg. Not scary.

EOTG - They are far too random. To get the mortals, you MUST line the EOTG up on the line (bad idea), and then roll 6-9 on the chart (random) and THEN roll a D6 dice. Not reliable AT ALL. And averages 3.5 wounds. Not scary.

Spells - I actually love one of new spells. Skink Priest + Banner = Stellar Tempest at 32"! Amazing for hordes. Another favorite strategy of mine is to teleport the slann fwd 12" (stay in range of banner) and cast Purple Sun at a +2. I did 22 mortals to Storm Fiends at my last GT! BUT again... too random to count on. Stellar Tempest is only good vs hordes. Meteroic Convocation averages 1-2 mortals. Ugh. Unforging is nice if there is a good target. But you must double teleport to get to him. Getting the Slann' s +1 to cast can be disastrous. AND if you are doing teleport/spell hijinks (which I love) you are using both your teleports and can't teleport anything else.

Look I LOVE Thunderquake. It is a well balanced battalion. There are advantages and disadvantages. This was a well designed and balanced list. The problem is the meta right now. It is not full of balanced lists like Thunderquake. Shootcast and Skaven FAR out shoot us. Fyreslayers FAR out tanks us. Just about EVERYONE far out-melees us. Slaanesh out summons us. Seraphon is a well balanced, tactical list in a world of OP factions right now. Against inferior opponents, we can usually always win via sound play. Against competent opponents with newer factions, we usually don't stand a chance (unless the dice are heavily in our favor).

It is still a great list! I will continue to play it cause I love Seraphon. But lets not pretend it is top tier.

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Why are you only looking at round 1 shooting? Why are you teleporting out of range of your full rerolls? Why are you assuming the only way to get into shooting range is to teleport? It's very easy to get an EOTG within 25" of a target (you don't even need LOS) and fish for the D6 mortal wounds by keeping a Slann nearby - you can reliably get either one of the two best results of 6-9 or 14-17 when you roll 4 and pick 3. If you need more reliability then bring/summon a Starseer for Curse of Fates.

If Skaven are outshooting you then you are definitely doing something wrong because WLC are a joke and it's easier for Seraphon to kill Jezzails than the other way around.

My experience has been wildly different from yours, so my only assumption is that you are not playing the list to its full potential.  It sounds like you are trying to play far too aggressively, throwing away units for minimal damage, ignoring key mechanics like vassal casting, and failing to keep units in your buff ranges.

I know Thunderquake is capable of beating all the top tier lists because I do it all the time - it's unfortunate that you can't get it to work that way.

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I guess so.

I look forward to you going 5-0 with Seraphon at some major GTs soon.

Considering only one Seraphon list worldwide has gone 5-0 at a major GT in the last year and half (and that one was called early due to time)... You must be a prodigy!

Make us all proud! Go prove it!

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On 8/21/2019 at 2:24 PM, PJetski said:

Most people that run Thunderquake do it with 2 Bastiladon - this is the wrong way to approach the list since the Stegadon + Bastiladon combo is vastly superior. Bastiladons are too slow, their shooting is too unreliable, and their melee is too weak to justify spending that many points on a pair of 8 wound monsters.

I wouldn't call it "worthless until turn 2", since you can be casting anti-horde spells, breaking artefacts, tossing Purple Sun and Aethervoid Pendulum straight into the heart of the enemy army, and reroll hits on shooting on turn 1. If you are facing an alpha strike list you can easily screen with skinks/knights and counterattack with our insane 12" artillery,  you can beat other shooting armies if you use your teleports properly, and if you face an attrition army you can just start spawning Razordons.

I think when you build and play it properly Thunderquake is one of the top 5 (maybe even top 3) lists in the game.

The most important thing about Bastiladons is their near invincibility in this battalion. 

You can just teleport them to a key position and block/hold up units forever.

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On 8/24/2019 at 11:24 PM, PJetski said:

Why are you only looking at round 1 shooting? Why are you teleporting out of range of your full rerolls? Why are you assuming the only way to get into shooting range is to teleport? It's very easy to get an EOTG within 25" of a target (you don't even need LOS) and fish for the D6 mortal wounds by keeping a Slann nearby - you can reliably get either one of the two best results of 6-9 or 14-17 when you roll 4 and pick 3. If you need more reliability then bring/summon a Starseer for Curse of Fates.

If Skaven are outshooting you then you are definitely doing something wrong because WLC are a joke and it's easier for Seraphon to kill Jezzails than the other way around.

My experience has been wildly different from yours, so my only assumption is that you are not playing the list to its full potential.  It sounds like you are trying to play far too aggressively, throwing away units for minimal damage, ignoring key mechanics like vassal casting, and failing to keep units in your buff ranges.

I know Thunderquake is capable of beating all the top tier lists because I do it all the time - it's unfortunate that you can't get it to work that way.

Seriously... 

Calebexnihilo only said that you can't alpha shoot anything with the thunderquake, explaining quite in detail why you can't,  and you answer 

1 - that you can get your eotg in range easily. 

Well.. Except with a teleportation or a stegadon, no you can't, and both are ressources that you can use but may be more usefull elsewhere. And after that you sill have to roll with low odd. Yes you can still pull off the Invocation, but it's not an alpha strike by any mean

 

2 - you can outshoot jezzail. 

You can't. You just can't.  For the cost of a bastiladon or a eotg you get 6 jezzails (that will be supported by a warps tone charge), and they one shot either of them. While you kill at best one jezzail. And no, they won't shoot the super tanky dino when every other target is bettee. 

Obviously things get better turn 2, after your charge phase, but only marginally, and even with full reroll you are still far worse at shooting than skyre skaven or Sce. 

Seraphon have other perks, but you claim that thunderquake is one of the best list in the game, and with a claim that bold, you have to present better arguments than "I win with it", and not just ignore counter arguments. You are the one making extraordinary claims here

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Welp.. just won a local 18 people (1750pts) tournament with a Dread saurian:

He works really well as a deterrent while carnosaur does some damage and the summoning engine gets rolling.

 

Im surprised old blood on carno costs the same despite doing soooo much more damage!

 

One thing i tried doing was actually to put a wall of skinks around the Dread while it sat on point and only moved at turn 3. So a defensive Dread Saurian

---

Slann (revive)

Starpriest

Engine of the gods

Astrolith

Old blood on carnosaur

 

---

3x10 Skinks

Dread Saurian

--

Cogs

Balewind vortex.

 

IMG_20190901_121843.jpg

Edited by Ivo
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