AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

[SolomonHelsing]

Yeah the split definitely better for that idea, three games I did get in, my 20 skinks and 20 warriors did little and got wiped, if they'd been 2 x 10 each then at least they would've lasted a bit longer but also screened deployment far better. 

[Bryan I Guess]

Looking at this list I'm working on. Trying to be relatively competitive in a super competitive meta.  (Think Bonereapers, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch at RTs) I'm looking for a solid 3-2 or if I practice enough with it 4-1 build.

Big thing here is I dont know whether I want to go Starborne or Coalesced.

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Coalesced 
Engine of the Gods (260)
- Artefact: Cloak of Feathers
Slann Starmaster (260)
Skink Starpriest (120)
Skink Priest (70) [general: master of star rituals] 
30 x Skinks (180)
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
3 x Kroxigor (140)
Bastiladon (220)
Stegadon (240)
Thunderquake Temple-host (150)
Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70)
Bound The Burning Head (40)
Bound Aethervoid Pendulum (60)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
 

Like I said I dont know if I want Starborne or Coalesced. If Starborne I get to heal with the TQUAKE, make the Engine the General, and save 20 points for. . . Something. (I am leaning more towards Starborne). Coalesced though gives me some play against things like Tzeentch, Bonereapers, and Slaanesh by reducing damage I take and making the TQUAKE killy.

Things to consider:

I'd run skinks with blow pipes not javelins. That's just warscroll builder's default.

Speaking of the skinks I took 30/10/10/10 rather than 40/10/10 for an extra screen.

I don't have Salamanders, and my Kroxigors are cool conversions so I'd like to try and keep those.

[Kasper]

@Bryan I Guess My thoughts when I read the list.

1. What is the purpose of the Engine of the Gods? The heal sounds great on paper, until you realize most stuff will kill your things in one round of combat if they truly want to. I get the idea of healing the Bastiladon up every turn, but most armies got ways of dealing MWs to it, especially the current meta armies. I personally dont see the value in the Engine of the Gods from a competitive standpoint.

2. 40 Skinks is so much stronger than 30 - They get double shots/attacks over 15, plus it means additional wounds have to be suffered before they "bracket" (below 15 models). It makes for a much stronger unit to buff up with the Starpriest + Priest. I know you want more screens, but I think it is the wrong place to cut value wise.

3. The Bastiladon is too many points outside of Thunderquake considering what it brings imo. If you want a roadblock, you might as well get more endless spells like the Purple Sun/Gnashing Jaws (they both have high casting value = harder to dispell, and huge foot prints).

4. Kroak is so much better than the Slann. 60 pts is nothing compared to the extra spell cast, access to his warscroll spell and extra CP generation.

5. I dont think the big dinos in general are that viable - Few bodies, low output.

 

I think you should consider what you want your list to do. Seraphon is very dependant on synergies and buffs, which you have to double down on. The warscrolls on their own are kinda ****** to be blunt. Your list seems all over the place - Many bound spells yet few casters, loads of Skinks which seem to suggest Fangs of Sotek, yet a monstermash of EotG + Stegadon + Bastiladon which kinda want to be Thunderlizard.

[Bryan I Guess]

@Kasper thank you for your input.

1. I'm running the Thunderquake battalion and I feel that the EotG is just strictly better than the Skink Chief steg. 10 less points for the same killing power, you lose the bow and the command ability but you gain 2 wounds and the engine effect which I think is a good trade off.

2. Yeah you're probably right. I just wanted a screen for my slann, a screen for my big dinos and a screen for my skinks which is weird to say.

3. Did you mean Thunder Lizard in this one? I have the Thunderquake battalion, but I specifically haven't chosen a constellation because I didnt know if I wanted to be Starborne or Coalesced. If I'm Coalesced I will be Thunder Lizard for the double taps and extra wounds. If I'm Starborne I think Fangs of Sotek will be the way to go. The extra 3" movement on almost my entire army is swell, but the CA will be vital for keeping the skinks alive. Like I said I'm leaning more towards Starborne.

4. I would but for no Kroak model. Kroak is clearly a superior Slann, I just really don't like finecast, so I never bought the model. I'm going to have to now that he just rocks.

5. "But. . . Big monster." - The Hulk

[Calebexnihilo]

Some strategy on Dread Saurian: https://youtu.be/W1SrASZi3ik

Wish i had one! I've never bitten the bullet and paid the ludicrous amount of $240!! But i'm tempted...

Not alot of buffs you can put on the Dread to make him more killy, but you can sure make him more tanky!!

2+ save vs shooting
3+ save in combat
4+ save vs spells

Not bad!

[SolomonHelsing]

So I made another write up of what I put together for getting 3 carnosaurs into combat, and making them as effective as I could. Here it is .

The list itself, though it has some points in it that relate to what i've written up about it. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Seraphon- Constellation: Koatl's Claw

Slann Starmaster (260)

- Spell: Walk Between Realms- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch (If Using Realms)

Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (250)

- General with Command Trait: Dominant Predator (Monster Meta)

Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (210)

- General with Command Trait: Dominant Predator (Non Monster Meta)

- Greatblade (Using Realms)

- Warspear With Artefact: Blade of Realities (Not Using Realms)

Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (210)

- War Spear- Artefact: Eviscerating Blade

Skink Starseer (140)

- Spell: Fiery Convocation

Skink Starseer (140)

- Spell: Hand of Glory/Tide Of Snakes

5 x Saurus Knights (100)

- Lances

5 x Saurus Knights (100)

- Lances

5 x Saurus Knights (100)

- Lances

4 x Razordon Hunting Pack (80)

4 x Razordon Hunting Pack (80)

4 x Razordon Hunting Pack (80)

Firelance Temple-host (160)

Chronomantic Cogs (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 1

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 101

I think it'll be fun to give this a try, and I've almost sorted out what I want to do for my second starseer as I had a spare razordon, Troglodon Priest and Carnosaur Chair. It's going to be a little goofy but then that's this list anyways, Though I think with some good rolls it can snatch a win or two. 

[Nart]

On 4/17/2020 at 8:30 AM, Bryan I Guess said:

Looking at this list I'm working on. Trying to be relatively competitive in a super competitive meta.  (Think Bonereapers, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch at RTs) I'm looking for a solid 3-2 or if I practice enough with it 4-1 build.

 

If you want to compete, you should go massed skinks, salamanders and terradons in Fangs of Sotek or Dracothion's tail.

If you want specifically run Thunderquake, go for Thunder Lizard with double bastiladons. And getting salamanders and Kroak should be your priority in this case.

Stegadon is a poor choice, imo. It is very easy to kill it even in thunder lizard and, unlike hero variants, you cannot make him more survivable. The only way to run them that I can think of is thunderquake with chief for maximal damage. But bastiladons are still better - their shooting with double-taping is nothing to sniff at and they are very strong against non-MW damage. Yes, they are weak to MW, but not all armies can provide enough to hurt both of them. And even when they are hurt badly - 4+ save is still not the worst thing in the world and can save you from some stray attacks. 

You are correct about EotG - it is, probably, our best behemoth right now, depsite being nerfed. 

I agree with Kasper - 40 skinks are much better then 30.  You should be fine with 2x 10 for screening, especially if you are lucky with summoning saurus from EotG.

I also agree that bastiladons are not worth it outside TQTL. TQTL gives them damage and speed, that makes them viable atop of high defence. 

I posted my TQTL list a couple of pages ago, you can check it if you are interested. You can replace salamanders with Kroxies and Kroak with Slann and take more endless spells/skinks/heroes. 

But in general, yes, our dinos are not the best competitive choice now.

 

[Heijoshin]

Hey everyone, 

Just wanting to try out a small 1250 point game soon via Tabletop Simulator, and wanted to give the new Seraphon a whirl and wanted to get some feedback on this list, as I have no idea how the synergies are working in Seraphon. 

 

Allegiance: Starborne

Constallation Dracothion’s Tail

Leader: 
Slann Starmaster - General 

Saurus Astrolith Bearer

Battleline: 
Skinks x 20
Skins x 20

Other Units: 
Salamander Hunting Pack x 12

Terradon Riders x 9

Last 100 points on Endless spells. 

Just something I put together but I have no idea how decent this list is. I feel it probably lacks some decent anvil unit, so perhaps swapping the Terradon Riders for Saurus would be a better idea. 

What do you guys think? 

 

[Kasper]

17 hours ago, Heijoshin said:

Hey everyone, 

Just wanting to try out a small 1250 point game soon via Tabletop Simulator, and wanted to give the new Seraphon a whirl and wanted to get some feedback on this list, as I have no idea how the synergies are working in Seraphon. 

 

Allegiance: Starborne

Constallation Dracothion’s Tail

Leader: 
Slann Starmaster - General 

Saurus Astrolith Bearer

Battleline: 
Skinks x 20
Skins x 20

Other Units: 
Salamander Hunting Pack x 12

Terradon Riders x 9

Last 100 points on Endless spells. 

Just something I put together but I have no idea how decent this list is. I feel it probably lacks some decent anvil unit, so perhaps swapping the Terradon Riders for Saurus would be a better idea. 

What do you guys think? 

 

Seraphon got terrible base warscrolls and rely on being modified by command abilities/buffs. These are largely divided into Skinks and Saurus, with a few being general Seraphon units.

The only units that work with zero buffs are really just Kroxigors and Salamanders. Terradons is a suicidal unit that at requires the Chief to be great, but once they drop their bombs they are worthless. They also have no survivability.

Keep in mind you can only cast 1 Endless spell per Wizard per turn, and you only have the Slann. Once your Salamanders die, you have nothing in the army that can bite back and you will be rolled over. 

[Heijoshin]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Seraphon got terrible base warscrolls and rely on being modified by command abilities/buffs. These are largely divided into Skinks and Saurus, with a few being general Seraphon units.

The only units that work with zero buffs are really just Kroxigors and Salamanders. Terradons is a suicidal unit that at requires the Chief to be great, but once they drop their bombs they are worthless. They also have no survivability.

Keep in mind you can only cast 1 Endless spell per Wizard per turn, and you only have the Slann. Once your Salamanders die, you have nothing in the army that can bite back and you will be rolled over. 

Thanks for the tips! Back to the drawing board then! Any advice on running a small 1250 game with seraphon? Either changing this list or would a more saurus focused list be better? 

[Kasper]

7 hours ago, Heijoshin said:

Thanks for the tips! Back to the drawing board then! Any advice on running a small 1250 game with seraphon? Either changing this list or would a more saurus focused list be better? 

I mean it really depends on what models you have in your collection. But you need to decide if you want to focus on Skinks, Saurus or monstermash, and then pick corresponding heroes to buff them.

Edit: Right it was for TTS, so I guess you have every model available. I really have no experience with TTS, so not sure how alike it is to the real deal on the table, like if it is easier to navigate melee blobs than ranged shooting + screening + spells.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Kasper

[Heijoshin]

6 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I mean it really depends on what models you have in your collection. But you need to decide if you want to focus on Skinks, Saurus or monstermash, and then pick corresponding heroes to buff them.

Edit: Right it was for TTS, so I guess you have every model available. I really have no experience with TTS, so not sure how alike it is to the real deal on the table, like if it is easier to navigate melee blobs than ranged shooting + screening + spells.

No worries, I will put some things together and give it a whirl! 

and as an FYI, TTS in many ways is easy as there is an inbuilt ruler you can use to measure everything. So big blobs are easy as selecting, picking up and moving. other ways, like piling in are a nightmare. Take some practice is all! 

[AaronWilson]

https://hobbyinthewarp.blogspot.com/2020/04/seraphon-battletome-good-bad-and-ugly.html

 

Today I'm back with a article on the new Seraphon battletome. I break down what I love, what I don't love and some of my thoughts about potential non interactivity and problem models in the book.

 

Check it out and let me know what you think

[The World Tree]

44 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

https://hobbyinthewarp.blogspot.com/2020/04/seraphon-battletome-good-bad-and-ugly.html

 

Today I'm back with a article on the new Seraphon battletome. I break down what I love, what I don't love and some of my thoughts about potential non interactivity and problem models in the book.

 

Check it out and let me know what you think

 

I enjoyed your article. I've only played vs. Seraphon rather than with, but it mirrors most of my thoughts. They've definitely become a more interesting army to face because of the removal of retreat from combat. 

Slightly disagree on Salamanders - they need a point rise, but have a defined weakness (bravery from killing handlers) at least. Kroak is probably 100 points too cheap. Bound endless spells should be limited to 1 - they were a bad idea in OBR and are a bad idea here.

[AaronWilson]

4 hours ago, The World Tree said:

 

I enjoyed your article. I've only played vs. Seraphon rather than with, but it mirrors most of my thoughts. They've definitely become a more interesting army to face because of the removal of retreat from combat. 

Slightly disagree on Salamanders - they need a point rise, but have a defined weakness (bravery from killing handlers) at least. Kroak is probably 100 points too cheap. Bound endless spells should be limited to 1 - they were a bad idea in OBR and are a bad idea here.

I mean I don't consider that a weakness, as with Slanns, Kroaks, etc I tend to find It's easy to keep at least one CP back to negate any bravery issues on top of the units being base bravery 10 inside of starbourne.

Agree on Kroak and bound endless spells

[Kasper]

19 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

I mean I don't consider that a weakness, as with Slanns, Kroaks, etc I tend to find It's easy to keep at least one CP back to negate any bravery issues on top of the units being base bravery 10 inside of starbourne.

Agree on Kroak and bound endless spells

At first bound Endless spells was a really cool concept, but I actually feel it is a somewhat lazy and bad design that create a negative player experience on the table. I want more motivators for giving away the double turn, not fewer. With Tzeentch horror spam you at least get to throw dice.

Would you honestly pay 420 (100 pts increase) for Lord Kroak? With so many points invested in 1 character, he needs to do some serious work to be worth the points (think Maw Krusha, Terrorgeist etc). Thats without calculating in extra points from Balewind, Guards (surely you would want that at 420) and maybe Astrolith.

[Calebexnihilo]

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

Would you honestly pay 420 (100 pts increase) for Lord Kroak? With so many points invested in 1 character, he needs to do some serious work to be worth the points (think Maw Krusha, Terrorgeist etc). Thats without calculating in extra points from Balewind, Guards (surely you would want that at 420) and maybe Astrolith.

He is already a 500 pts hero in my mind (320 + 140 Astrolith + 40 Balewind... if you plan on actually using his unique spell), and 600 if you add guard to actually keep him alive.

I think he is fine at 320. Useful on his own as a cmd pt generator with the Comet spell, but not OP.

[Kasper]

2 hours ago, Calebexnihilo said:

He is already a 500 pts hero in my mind (320 + 140 Astrolith + 40 Balewind... if you plan on actually using his unique spell), and 600 if you add guard to actually keep him alive.

I think he is fine at 320. Useful on his own as a cmd pt generator with the Comet spell, but not OP.

Yeah thats my point. He isnt just 320 as is. He is strong, sure, but he also makes up a big part of your army. I would rather have seen strong traits/artefacts to make the Slann a better contender.
 

Normally taking a named character is a big sacrifice due to loss of trait/artefact, but in our  case it is kinda whatever.

[Nart]

I ran Kroak without support a couple of times and I agree, that his price is fair. Without balewing/astrolith he just doesn't reach anything with Celestial Deliverence and he is also very slow in coalesced. Dedicated shooting armies should snipe him without much effort, if you don't include guard.

[AaronWilson]

Think you guys make fair points about Kroak, he certainly needs a Balewind and Astrolith to be able to reach out onto the board. That said him casting 5 spells at +4 to cast with +12 range is just hugely powerful.

I currently have a list for each subdivision that I'm super happy with, I think my nexrt article I will go ahead and take a look at each sub division and discuss how I feel about the competitive viability of them.

Edited April 28, 2020 by AaronWilson

[Calebexnihilo]

Youtube - AOS Bat Rep - Seraphon vs Nurgle - Gotrek vs 3 GUO!

Gameplan: Focal Points

His list:
3 Great Unclean Ones in Thricefold
2x40 Plaguebearers
1x10 Plaguebearers
Umbral Spell Portal
Gemenids

My List:
Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
Lord Kroak (320)
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Engine of the Gods (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
Gotrek Gurnisson (520) - Allies
10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
Bastiladon (220) - Weapon: Solar Engine
Bastiladon (220)- Weapon: Solar Engine
Balewind Vortex (40)
Bound The Burning Head (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 93

[Kasper]

11 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

Think you guys make fair points about Kroak, he certainly needs a Balewind and Astrolith to be able to reach out onto the board. That said him casting 5 spells at +4 to cast with +12 range is just hugely powerful.

I currently have a list for each subdivision that I'm super happy with, I think my nexrt article I will go ahead and take a look at each sub division and discuss how I feel about the competitive viability of them.

Yeah he is no doubt strong and worthwhile to bring, but to be +4 you also need a Slann. Before you know it you have almost dedicated 1/3 (if not more) of your 2k army to make him a powerhouse. Doesnt seem too absurd in my eyes. 
 

Looking forward to your next article!

[Kasper]

4 hours ago, Calebexnihilo said:

Youtube - AOS Bat Rep - Seraphon vs Nurgle - Gotrek vs 3 GUO!

Gameplan: Focal Points

His list:
3 Great Unclean Ones in Thricefold
2x40 Plaguebearers
1x10 Plaguebearers
Umbral Spell Portal
Gemenids

My List:
Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
Lord Kroak (320)
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Engine of the Gods (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
Gotrek Gurnisson (520) - Allies
10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
Bastiladon (220) - Weapon: Solar Engine
Bastiladon (220)- Weapon: Solar Engine
Balewind Vortex (40)
Bound The Burning Head (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 93

Nice one!

Gotrek is actually kind of interesting in Seraphon. The Bat rep gave me some ideas for Starborne where the playstyle might be a little slower. 😁

[Obeisance]

Hey, what is considered a competitive list for Seraphon?

Just looking for some ideas. There's no events and in thinking about picking them up.

[Kasper]

6 hours ago, Obeisance said:

Hey, what is considered a competitive list for Seraphon?

Just looking for some ideas. There's no events and in thinking about picking them up.

Well as you said there are no events, so it is kinda hard to figure out what a "competitive" list looks like in the new tome. Some people are playing online on tabletop stimulator, where Starborne has been doing well - Largely Skinks, Chameleon Skinks and Salamanders. 

If you go into the Seraphon section here, there are 2 threads with lists from Jack and Paul (playtesters). 

In general you need to decide between going Skinks, Saurus Warriors/Knights or big dinos. From what I have seen, the "most competitive" list currently is fielding multiple Salamanders/80ish Skinks.