AoS 2 - Wanderers Discussion

[Aelfric]

3 hours ago, DionTheWanderer said:

I find they're at their best ~8" behind a unit of 20 EG defending an objective, ideally in cover. For extra punch, have a spellweaver in range to replenish any casualties on the two units.  

20 EG at 3/3/3+, rerolling 1s and 2s, causing mortal wounds on 4+ is bloody hard to shift. Add the sisters' javelins, and you'll be doing a reasonable amount of damage in return. 

Plus, while they're mediocre in combat, 10 wounds of sisters (with a possibility of 2D3 being returned by a blessings of life spell) are a pain to get rid of, so if they do wipe out your eternal guard, you have a fallback unit that might stick around long enough to hold an objective on a final critical turn or two. 

That means for 140+220+100 = 460 points, i.e. less than a quarter of your army you have a *very* stubborn defensive unit. This gives you a fulcrum around which you can either go for mobility, firepower, or a combination of the two. 

*Disclaimer* - I'm a pretty new player, and don't exactly have a stellar record in matches, so more experienced players may have ways round this. 

I agree that it is a good defensive plan for wanderers, augmented by the Shawl to help get those spells off.  Downside is it really only covers one objective and so many of the scenarios have far more than that.  If an opponent just ignores that objective, those units are not going to see much action.  A good strategy, though, if there are only 2 or 3 objectives.  If they are part of the Battalion, you really only need to put the EG down separately, which still leaves you on two drops to get first turn.

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

I agree that it is a good defensive plan for wanderers, augmented by the Shawl to help get those spells off.  Downside is it really only covers one objective and so many of the scenarios have far more than that.  If an opponent just ignores that objective, those units are not going to see much action.  A good strategy, though, if there are only 2 or 3 objectives.  If they are part of the Battalion, you really only need to put the EG down separately, which still leaves you on two drops to get first turn.

And often games aren't even won if you defend all your objectives.. you need to be able to clear on objective of the opponent.. preferably early in the game.

[GM_Monkey]

15 hours ago, Aezeal said:

And often games aren't even won if you defend all your objectives.. you need to be able to clear on objective of the opponent.. preferably early in the game.

That's what I really miss about the stalker of the hidden path ways, taking 2 units of archers, a small eternal guard, waywatchers and the nomad prince to buff with the command ability meant you could start to attack the oponents while your wildriders, eternal guard and sister camped on some of your objectives.

Now I either get caught with 1 unit too far up or it's a slow out of range slog to try and hit the enemy units. And I find myself out of position all the time.

[Frozenbeast]

On 9/18/2018 at 4:03 PM, DionTheWanderer said:

20 EG at 3/3/3+, rerolling 1s and 2s, causing mortal wounds on 4+ is bloody hard to shift. Add the sisters' javelins, and you'll be doing a reasonable amount of damage in return. 

 

 

This is also a pretty hard situation to pull out. On paper the thing works, but then in practice you ll find yourself very few times in a similar but still worst situation  due to the fact that that combo works in that  and that only situation. In any other situation you are not gonna be even close to that efficiency. I personally never found myself in the position to pull that out either because my enemy was not holding on movement or because obj were in the middle of the table hence I had to move that 20 man unit of EG not being able to activate the ability. This almost always result in your unit being wiped out by anything that touches it before you can use FoB.

If somebody managed to do good with it please let me know, but so far nobody pulled that combo off.

 

 

[Frozenbeast]

On 9/18/2018 at 8:25 PM, Aezeal said:

And often games aren't even won if you defend all your objectives.. you need to be able to clear on objective of the opponent.. preferably early in the game.

 

And how do you clear 40 clanrats three times?

 

[adreal]

1 hour ago, Frozenbeast said:

 

And how do you clear 40 clanrats three times?

 

Sisters of the watch get 22 shots for a unit of 10, hitting on 3s wounding on 2s

[Aelfric]

12 hours ago, GM_Monkey said:

That's what I really miss about the stalker of the hidden path ways, taking 2 units of archers, a small eternal guard, waywatchers and the nomad prince to buff with the command ability meant you could start to attack the oponents while your wildriders, eternal guard and sister camped on some of your objectives.

Now I either get caught with 1 unit too far up or it's a slow out of range slog to try and hit the enemy units. And I find myself out of position all the time.

That's the reason why the Battalion has become more important.  It gives you that first round of ambush that the old ability gave you.  Once they're down, though, it becomes a bit of a slogfest, with only one unit to zip around.  We have to pick the right priorities and hope to do enough damage to blunt their offence enough.   Make them spread their units out then concentrate on one or two units.  Waywatchers are almost impossible to screen against along the back edge and with other units coming from the sides, they are less likely to charge them - nobody likes going backwards.  If the enemy have missile troops, take them out first.  It's Guerilla tactics all the way.  Easy to say, but hard to do but it's part of what makes them fun.  I tend to just park my EG on an objective and leave them there; they're hard enough to shift on their own.

At 140 points for twenty, has anyone run multiple units of EG.  I only have 20 painted, but have been considering whether several 20-strong units would work for board control and redundancy.  Maybe multiple units of 10?  After all, even 10 units of 10 only comes to 700 points. It would be hard for any enemy to chew through that.

[awcamawn]

4 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Maybe multiple units of 10?  After all, even 10 units of 10 only comes to 700 points. It would be hard for any enemy to chew through that.

I have thought about this, it could potentially make for a very strong defensive backbone and still leave plenty of points for some offense. Eternal Guard are easily our most efficient unit points-wise. But who wants to paint that many Eternal Guard? The models are so detailed, it would take me forever! 

8 hours ago, Frozenbeast said:

If somebody managed to do good with it please let me know, but so far nobody pulled that combo off.

 

In AoS 1.0 I got a unit of Eternal Guard into cover on an objective with 6 models out of 10 left. I was able to set the combo off and by the time my friend had rolled the first of his Plague Drones attacks and realized what was going on, he then politely declined to attack with their remaining weapons and retreated the next turn. Possibly the most triumphant moment of my AoS career; it felt pretty great. And in AoS 2.0, your opponent must attack, even if it means blowing themselves up on the shield! Pulling that off is now my new goal in AoS.

I have found that units of 10 are absolutely key to giving them a chance to find full cover for the unit, though. Units of 20 or 30 have their benefits as well, but Eternal Guard don't gain any bonuses on their warscroll from unit size so I find myself sticking with 10s.

 

[Aelfric]

42 minutes ago, awcamawn said:

But who wants to paint that many Eternal Guard? The models are so detailed, it would take me forever! 

I have to admit that this is a big stumbling block.

[GM_Monkey]

2 hours ago, Aelfric said:

I have to admit that this is a big stumbling block.

Tell me about it, just started on my 21st to 30th model to paint and I'm getting sick of them. Added to the fact any wild wood rangers are just too similar to make it feel like a break.

[GM_Monkey]

11 hours ago, Frozenbeast said:

 

And how do you clear 40 clanrats three times?

 

clanrats I can take, at least they don't come back, 40 units of skeletons two times, with the damn things coming back all the time. And the amount of attacks they get, it's just stupid.

[DionTheWanderer]

13 hours ago, Frozenbeast said:

 

 

This is also a pretty hard situation to pull out. On paper the thing works, but then in practice you ll find yourself very few times in a similar but still worst situation  due to the fact that that combo works in that  and that only situation. In any other situation you are not gonna be even close to that efficiency. I personally never found myself in the position to pull that out either because my enemy was not holding on movement or because obj were in the middle of the table hence I had to move that 20 man unit of EG not being able to activate the ability. This almost always result in your unit being wiped out by anything that touches it before you can use FoB.

If somebody managed to do good with it please let me know, but so far nobody pulled that combo off.

 

 

It does depend on what scenario you're doing. I played Kingslayer (from the open war cards) and it worked a treat. Cocooned my General (nomad prince) in the middle of 20 EG in the middle of a forest. Gave him Mystwalker, and kept him 2" from the enemy. Therefore they *had* to come and attack the EG to get at him, and bounced badly into the SoT I managed to set off. 

Otherwise, yes it's difficult to set up. I've also been torn between 1 unit of 20 or 2 units of 10. The problem being of course that you can only cast SoT on one unit at a time. In the end, I magnetised the command group for the second unit, so I can run either option depending on scenario. I'll try a few games and let you know how it goes.

 

 

 

 

[Frozenbeast]

10 hours ago, awcamawn said:

I have thought about this, it could potentially make for a very strong defensive backbone and still leave plenty of points for some offense. Eternal Guard are easily our most efficient unit points-wise. But who wants to paint that many Eternal Guard? The models are so detailed, it would take me forever! 

In AoS 1.0 I got a unit of Eternal Guard into cover on an objective with 6 models out of 10 left. I was able to set the combo off and by the time my friend had rolled the first of his Plague Drones attacks and realized what was going on, he then politely declined to attack with their remaining weapons and retreated the next turn. Possibly the most triumphant moment of my AoS career; it felt pretty great. And in AoS 2.0, your opponent must attack, even if it means blowing themselves up on the shield! Pulling that off is now my new goal in AoS.

I have found that units of 10 are absolutely key to giving them a chance to find full cover for the unit, though. Units of 20 or 30 have their benefits as well, but Eternal Guard don't gain any bonuses on their warscroll from unit size so I find myself sticking with 10s.

 

 

I beleive you can, and I am glad someone actually pulled it off (so at least we know for sure it is not  just aLegend!? I am just saying it is soo hard to happen and situational.

 

[Aezeal]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 11:28 PM, Frozenbeast said:

 

And how do you clear 40 clanrats three times?

 

Well... not with a full shooting list I fear. Ally drycha I guess

[Cambot1231]

Its funny having one unit of 10 eternal guard outside of my battalion i put them on the battlefield and the rest are deployed off table. I let the opponent go 1st and everytime they get charged from accross the table and blown up. Makes me realize how much we can kneecap our opponents if we null deploy and rob them of all that ground that they would otherwise get in the charge phase.

[Gwill_of_the_Woods]

Hey everyone,

Bit of a random and slightly off topic (but not really) question.

How much points would you say that the old warscrolls of Orion, the Shaowdancer, and war dancers would be worth if they stil had their Wanderer key words etc plus the latest GHB2.0 Wanderer allegiance abilities?

I'm just trying to gauge what would be comparable to Orion and the Shadow Dancer in a very loose mathced play/ Path to Glory campaign.

 

Thanks

[adreal]

Well they still have legal points from the first generals handbook, so you could use that, and ask your locals if they mind those models having the wanderer keyword (I really dont see how it would in any way be over powered).

Avatar of the hunt would like the splinterbirch blade

[Nevar]

On 9/20/2018 at 4:44 AM, GM_Monkey said:

clanrats I can take, at least they don't come back, 40 units of skeletons two times, with the damn things coming back all the time. And the amount of attacks they get, it's just stupid.

As a servant of Nagash I find your lack of appreciation of the skeletal hordes unsettling.

That said, the skelebobs can only be returned to the battlefield via the General himself.  This is a rule people often get wrong, so keep an eye on that.  It is a Command Ability and must be done from a Grave Site near the general while he is still alive obviously.

As a servant of Nagash primarily I will tell you a host of bow wielding aelves who can shoot all my heroes to out of their undeath is a nightmare scenario.  Kill the undead general and you remove all possibility of summoning from the army.  Then target the specifically 'LoN' heroes as only they have the ability to heal lost models.  Any allied death heroes like Nighthaunt units and the like do not have the Invocation of Death special rule and therefore cannot bring back d3 skelebobs.

Also, the Necromancer is the only one who has Danse Macabre on his warscroll, so killing him/them will cut the enemy skelebobs attack potential in half.

If you are facing the God of Death himself... well then the skelebobs are not actually your problem, and shooting Nagash to death is priority number one. 

==============================================================================================

Undead advice to the side, I am really flip flopping between the idea of a Wanderer force or an Ironweld themed Free City force.

I really love the Sisters of the Watch, and I also have always been a fan of the Swordmasters of Hoeth and the Loremaster.  In the old world I served Ulthuan as a High Elf player, so I am very familiar with the various units that got splintered into a million sub-factions.  That said, I am thinking of starting with a 1000 pt Order army so that I can keep my painting backlog low, and it seems like Wanderers very much need their battalion in AoS2.0

Seeing as it is nearly impossible to get the battalion in a 1k list, are Wanderers even viable as a faction outside of 2k points?  Sisters of the Watch as batteline is extremely tempting, and the ability to bring in some of my old favorite High Elf models as allies now and again is pretty cool.  However, a bunch of cannons and gunpowder at 1k points doesn't seem to suffer as much potentially as a Wanderer army might.

What thinks the Wanderer crowd here?

[awcamawn]

53 minutes ago, Nevar said:

Kill the undead general and you remove all possibility of summoning from the army. 

But in AoS 2.0 when your general dies you get to pick a new one, right?

54 minutes ago, Nevar said:

Seeing as it is nearly impossible to get the battalion in a 1k list, are Wanderers even viable as a faction outside of 2k points? 

While the battalion is quite good, I've found Wanderers play fine at lower points. We don't have one of our best toys but at 1k neither does most everybody else.

Even with their points increase, Waywatcher heroes are very strong and taking multiple in a smaller game can be downright dirty against some more casual lists.

A unit of 20 Sisters of the Watch bouncing around the board edge will also typically find less that can threaten them in smaller games; your opponent will likely not have as much to out-range or chase them down with (knowing they will just disappear and potentially leave a significant portion of their army out of position).

And with fewer big scary threats on the table at 1k, you can be a bit more aggressive with your Nomad Prince and take advantage of their solid melee profile. The Forget-Me-Knot artifact can be extremely powerful in smaller games as well if your opponent does decide to invest a lot of points in a hero; make them lose a key combat phase then follow up with a retreat and/or coup de grace them with either shooting or some well positioned Wildwood Rangers (especially if its a monster as well as a hero).

[Nevar]

15 minutes ago, awcamawn said:

But in AoS 2.0 when your general dies you get to pick a new one, right?

Not in matched play unfortunately for our undead legions.  Simply choosing a new general is a Narrative/Open Play mechanic, so snipe that Undead General and stop worrying about undead summoning.

You cannot turn off the recursion from the Grave Sites and other heroes with Deathly Invocation can bring back models to units that are still alive, but bringing back an entire unit from the destroyed pile requires a command point, an unblocked Grave Site, and a living General.  You can just stand units on Grave Sites to prevent units from summoning from them as well.

[Nevar]

Apologies for the double post, but I pondered a 1k list to collect and I wanted to hear what people here thought of it.

 

Waywatcher - General

Nomad Prince

Knight-Incantor

x20 Sisters of the Watch

x10 Sisters of the Watch

Everblaze Comet

Soulsnare Shackles

 

Just a caviot or two.   I include the Knight-Incantor because I already have a model for one, and she is a character in the background for the order city these aelves patrol for.  I looked at the Spell Weaver and thought she was good also, but a Knight-Incantor can actually fight in melee, has soul vials, and can bring the Everblaze Comet.

Speaking of the Everblaze Comet, I have seen it used to amazingly good effect in 1k games, plus I figure it will potentially be even better with the Wanderers as I can drop it in between my archers and the enemy, then play ring around the rosey with a pulsing death comet as a burning no-go zone for any assaulty army wanting to cover the distance.  Soulsnare Shackles is really only included to fill points, but I can see stringing them out to mine objectives and the like and further slow down my opponents.  I figure I would have the Nomad Prince, and Knight-Incantor, and the Waywatcher form a castle with either the x20 or x10 lady unit of SotW depending on how cagey my opponent is being.  If they are spreading out to prevent my flanking moves I can take the smaller x10 unit on hit and run missions since they will be easier to position... if my enemy is being heedless I can drop the x20 unit on a flank or behind them to make it not entirely a sure thing which way the enemy units should be going.  The down side is the Knight-Incantor can't flee with wanderer magics, but I imagine after running through comet fire, soul shackles, and blazing arrows, the Knight-Incantor can likely do some work in the combat phase, even if it is just a suicide bomb with her soul vials on an enemy big guy.  Likewise my Nomad Prince seems like a duelist to an extent, especially if he is taking on injured opponents.

Is this list madness?

[Charlo]

Pretty sure the list is illegal as you need to have Stormcast Allegiance to bring their endless spells...

[GM_Monkey]

1 hour ago, Charlo said:

Pretty sure the list is illegal as you need to have Stormcast Allegiance to bring their endless spells...

Warscroll says:

"Summon Everblaze Comet has a casting value of 6. Only Stormcast Eternal Wizards can attempt to cast this spell. If successfully cast, set up an Everblaze Comet model wholly within 36" of the caster."

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_Stormcast_Everblaze_Comet.pdf

So he should be okay.

[Charlo]

I believe the rules for this would be covered in the battletome though, not just on the Warscroll. I could be completely wrong though, but I thought one of the boons of having a single allegiance was access to specific spell lores/ endless spells.

[Nevar]

I am 90% sure it is legal.

To show another example that highlights the interaction with Endless Spells, take a look at the Nighthaunt Endless Spells.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_NightHaunt_Shyish_Reaper.pdf

The rules state;

"Only Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead and Nighthaunt Wizards can attempt to cast Summon Shyish Reaper. It has a casting value of 7. If successfully cast, set up a Shyish Reaper model wholly within 6" of the caster."

Nagash is not a member of the Nighthaunt battletome, nor does he share any of the Nighthaunt keywords, nor is he in the Allegiance of those Endless Spells.  Clearly it makes sense that he should be able to cast them, and so the warscrolls for all of the Nighthaunt Endless Spells specifically write him in to who can cast them.  This inclusion is not specified in the battletome, it is expressed directly on the warscrolls for the Endless Spells.

Also, logically speaking, if you had a clause in the battletome that restricted the use of the Endless Spells, the warscrolls would not need to specify which type of wizards can cast them as they do, it would be as easy as 'wizards' instead of using Keywords.  GW has been known to not do the most logical things in the past, and I say I am only 90% sure because there is of course a small chance there is some clause somewhere that says only allegiance pure lists can use them, but I am very confident that is not the case.  I only cite the undead examples because I am very familiar with those and have their battletomes, where I do not have the Stormcast battletome.