Jump to content

AoS 2 - Wanderers Discussion


Chris Tomlin

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Zanzou said:

I had bought 15 waywatchers from ebay the year before GW decided to pull the "wanderers" keyword from them :(.  They are amazing and everything I would want out of stealthy wood elves.  For the few people still uninitiated:

Image result for waywatchers warhammer

Image result for waywatchers warhammer

They actually look better than I had remembered. So... they started with the Wanderers keyword in AoS? I didn’t know that, I only came back to the hobby around August last year. Too bad. Why GW, why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, martinwolf said:

They actually look better than I had remembered. So... they started with the Wanderers keyword in AoS? I didn’t know that, I only came back to the hobby around August last year. Too bad. Why GW, why.

Yeah, the sudden mass-removal of keywords from older units- summer of 2017.  As someone who started WH with AoS, that was my very first experience of betrayal with GW. As you can see, I still have not gotten over it 😥

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Zanzou said:

Yeah, the sudden mass-removal of keywords from older units- summer of 2017.  As someone who started WH with AoS, that was my very first experience of betrayal with GW. As you can see, I still have not gotten over it 😥

I use my old Wardancers as WWR and the Waywatchers as SotW. They both have models that properly reflect what they do, after all! I'm mostly bummed that I missed the opportunity to field mounted Glade Lords with actually good stats - I had been planning to make a giant wolf riding hero for a long while, but presently I can't even ally one in and maintain a Wanderers allegiance, which is super sad! I'm hoping once elves get a faction book the option will return, personally.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/4/2019 at 11:54 AM, robbobobo said:

So, I had  my first game with Wanderers today at 1500pts. It As exciting as it was, I'm curious to know a few things:

1) When is the right time to move up with Eternal Guard vs Boughing up?
2) I've read somewhere in this thread that one of the more viable ways to deploy is to castle up and wait for them to come to you; what is the best way to go about that and/or is there a way to move up in a defensive ball and take objectives?
 

My humble anwser would be: There is no "best" way, i mean it depends on the situation alot.

Cool thing about EG is that they are very flexible- you can eighter use them as chaff or buff them and turn them into pretty good anvil/tarpit.

Basicly i divide their role in two scenarios: defensive and offensive

Defensive is no brainer, as soon as you park them on objective- buff them up and ur golden. Cannot really go wrong here.

When they advance in front of your shooting line - thats where tricky part is. There is alot to think about, especially when you want to take objectives. But i generally try to judge whatever charging vs buffing help me achieve what i need. I often charge with EG to stop enemy further instead of giving him extra charge move, thats why i dont really like groups of 10EG, so they can whitstand turn of combat without buffing, then turn it on and hold enemy for much longer

Groups of 10 are good however to stop units so you can have extra shooting turn. Or allow other meele to charge- but dont expect them to last more than 2 combat turns. But you loose 70pts- if that gives you extra shooting turn or free charge- its a win for you

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, did you know that Sisters of the Watch no longer have -1 rend? Because they no longer have -1 rend. It makes them a lot less good than they used to be (or at least changes what they prefer to shoot at), and makes Glade Guard with a one-time -3 rend a more interesting choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, overtninja said:

So, did you know that Sisters of the Watch no longer have -1 rend? Because they no longer have -1 rend. It makes them a lot less good than they used to be (or at least changes what they prefer to shoot at), and makes Glade Guard with a one-time -3 rend a more interesting choice.

They never had rend in Age of Sigmar. Their current warscroll hasn't been changed since it was originally printed in the Grand Alliance: Order book. If Sisters of the Watch had -1 rend and double the shots per model vs Glade Guard and still only cost 33% more they would be a no brainer. 

Sisters of the Watch put out a solid number of reliable shots that will force your opponent to roll a lot of saves, but they don't excel at targeting heavily armored enemies. We don't have much rend outside of the Glade Guard's once per game Arcane Bodkins, which is why they remain a good option to have in our toolkit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, awcamawn said:

They never had rend in Age of Sigmar. Their current warscroll hasn't been changed since it was originally printed in the Grand Alliance: Order book. If Sisters of the Watch had -1 rend and double the shots per model vs Glade Guard and still only cost 33% more they would be a no brainer. 

 Sisters of the Watch put out a solid number of reliable shots that will force your opponent to roll a lot of saves, but they don't excel at targeting heavily armored enemies. We don't have much rend outside of the Glade Guard's once per game Arcane Bodkins, which is why they remain a good option to have in our toolkit.

word, i was using the old warscroll from the GW website, I guess... anyway, good to know!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, overtninja said:

word, i was using the old warscroll from the GW website, I guess... anyway, good to know!

I mean, I originally used the old website warscroll as well and it didn't list rend on their bows there either... What I was trying to tell you is no version of their warscroll has ever had rend in Age of Sigmar. I didn't play Warhammer Fantasy, so perhaps they had the equivalent of rend in that game back when they were the Sisters of Avelorn but Sisters of the Watch have never had it. Would be nice if they did though. :( If you ever thought they had rend, that was just wishful thinking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/6/2019 at 11:07 PM, overtninja said:

So, did you know that Sisters of the Watch no longer have -1 rend? Because they no longer have -1 rend. It makes them a lot less good than they used to be (or at least changes what they prefer to shoot at), and makes Glade Guard with a one-time -3 rend a more interesting choice.

Nope.  20 are still amazing holding an objective.  They hit on 3s, wound on 3s and are pumping lots of shots.  Glade guard are good at having a 26" threat range.  SotW are good at holding a board section/objective.  I find GG plain dismal throughout a game at damage output but good as a tactical threat.  

I guess to me there is definitively a place for both but I am nonplussed by GG in AoS in general.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, awcamawn said:

I mean, I originally used the old website warscroll as well and it didn't list rend on their bows there either... What I was trying to tell you is no version of their warscroll has ever had rend in Age of Sigmar. I didn't play Warhammer Fantasy, so perhaps they had the equivalent of rend in that game back when they were the Sisters of Avelorn but Sisters of the Watch have never had it. Would be nice if they did though. :( If you ever thought they had rend, that was just wishful thinking.

I think I might have just been reading them wrong forever because I am bad, really. 😛 Anyway, they are pretty good anyway, but I think moving forward I'll bring them in one big block of 20 and a block of at least 20 GG, since they both do different, good things. They are still fantastic, but I'll have to rely more heavily on getting favorable WWR charges to deal with mean things.

 

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Nope.  20 are still amazing holding an objective.  They hit on 3s, wound on 3s and are pumping lots of shots.  Glade guard are good at having a 26" threat range.  SotW are good at holding a board section/objective.  I find GG plain dismal throughout a game at damage output but good as a tactical threat.  

I guess to me there is definitively a place for both but I am nonplussed by GG in AoS in general.  

GG are pretty trash in terms of damage output but they are mobile whilst losing nothing and since they don't do much after their initial volley offensively I have no problem using them to eat charges, block positions, and otherwise expend their lives heroicly for the good of the team. I would hate to do that with pretty much any other unit in the roster, outside of EG, who are purpose-built for chump-blocking, but have the offensive potential of pocket lint. Of the two, I'd much rather use GG.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/9/2019 at 11:20 PM, Thalandor said:

then you've never hold on to an objective with 20 unsupported EG against 9 spear eel guards + akhelian king over 3 battlerounds.  If my SotT would have been alive at that point, those EG would have easily wiped out all 10 models.

Oh, I've used them to great effect before, and they are supremely good at their job, but if I'm not trying to build a solid wall, I usually leave them at home. They are good enough, and cheap enough, that I should try to bring them in more often, though, especially with how often I'm fielding SotT now...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm finally planning my first 1k list (friends and i will be doing meeting engagements for now) I currently have a NP, 2 Way-hero stand ins, 20 Eternal guard and 10 SotW. Going to purchase the next part of my army but i'm torn between buying either 10 sisters of the thorn or 5 Sisters and 10 SotW. the choice basically cav or more bows and i'm stuck as to knowing whats good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Alexispolux said:

I'm finally planning my first 1k list (friends and i will be doing meeting engagements for now) I currently have a NP, 2 Way-hero stand ins, 20 Eternal guard and 10 SotW. Going to purchase the next part of my army but i'm torn between buying either 10 sisters of the thorn or 5 Sisters and 10 SotW. the choice basically cav or more bows and i'm stuck as to knowing whats good.

More sisters of the watch will be more useful. If you want them, 5 sisters of the thorn would be ok I dont think 10 are necessary especially at smaller games

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Alexispolux said:

I'm finally planning my first 1k list (friends and i will be doing meeting engagements for now) I currently have a NP, 2 Way-hero stand ins, 20 Eternal guard and 10 SotW. Going to purchase the next part of my army but i'm torn between buying either 10 sisters of the thorn or 5 Sisters and 10 SotW. the choice basically cav or more bows and i'm stuck as to knowing whats good.

SoTT are too expensive to go for 10 in 1k points, having unit of 10 means you get + to cast, but its not like shield of thorns is hard to cast anyway.  Having 2 units of 5 wont help eighter since you can cast SoT only once. On the other hand SoTW will give you much better damage output and more bodycount to hold objective if nessecarry.  On top of beign 50points cheaper which is almost another 10 EG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi guys, 

what do you think about this list here? I'm rebuilding my wanderers army (from wood elfs).

Allegiance: Order - Mortal Realm: Shyish


LEADERS


Nomad Prince (80)
- General
- Command Trait : Strategic Genius
- Artefact : Ethereal Amulet
Spellweaver (100)
- Heartwood Staff
Wayfinder (80)
Wayfinder (80)
Wayfinder (80)
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
- Artefact : Wraithbow


UNITS
10 x Eternal Guard (70)
10 x Glade Guard (120)
10 x Glade Guard (120)
10 x Glade Guard (120)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (210)
5 x Wild Riders (100)
30 x Phoenix Guard (360)


BATTALIONS
Waystone Pathfinders (160)

3 -DROPS TOTAL: 2000/2000

EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 127
LEADERS: 6/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 0/400

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

Hi guys, 

what do you think about this list here? I'm rebuilding my wanderers army (from wood elfs).

Allegiance: Order - Mortal Realm: Shyish


LEADERS


Nomad Prince (80)
- General
- Command Trait : Strategic Genius
- Artefact : Ethereal Amulet
Spellweaver (100)
- Heartwood Staff
Wayfinder (80)
Wayfinder (80)
Wayfinder (80)
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
- Artefact : Wraithbow


UNITS
10 x Eternal Guard (70)
10 x Glade Guard (120)
10 x Glade Guard (120)
10 x Glade Guard (120)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (210)
5 x Wild Riders (100)
30 x Phoenix Guard (360)


BATTALIONS
Waystone Pathfinders (160)

3 -DROPS TOTAL: 2000/2000

EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 127
LEADERS: 6/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 0/400

If you're going allegiance order then IMHO there is no point taking the battalion. The 30 glade guard separated plus the 3 wayfinders won't give you enough firepower to justify it. The separate 10 units of glade guard lose their 1+ to hit so are only hitting on 4+ and will on average only causes 3.5 wounds per group before saves.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/24/2019 at 10:18 PM, Rahatlin said:

Thanks. Thats interesting read, and i do agree to solid points you mentioned. However, i gave it a tough and ran some numbers and i came to some conclusios, allow me to throw in some interesting arguments :) (Hopefully) 

Please dont threat it as me trying to disagreem but rather i thry to find holes in your arguments so i can make better decision regarding army composition ( and hopefully anyone whos reading)

Depending on what role your EG fill, i mainly focused on Anvil (Objective Defend) or Chaff/Screen unit for our SotW/GG/Other units when advancing to claim objective.  I read all posts here, and looking at Wanderers unit roster i feel we are good with objective defending, but lack at attacking one - or rather i should say i belive our disadvantage is that we need too sacrifice too many units to be able to defendobjectives, and this leave us with unsufficient amount of units to apply pressure on enemy objectives, so there is no need for enemy to divert forces, so they can push harder and so on. Thats why i embarked onto a jurney to find best defensive unit i can find among wanderers and their allies - and oh boy, Phoenix Guard are one of best out there

Anvil / Defending Line Scenario

Now, this is all great when you park your EG on objective, starting turn 1,  activate FoB for 3+/3+ and 4+Save, throw in some Spellweaver for resses and keep Nomad Prince nearby (8'') for buffs you mentioned.

Testring against 20x  3+/3+ R1/R2/R3 Attacks

When i ran the numbers - it all looks similar to Phoenix Guard results when Saving wounds from Rend 0. Tehnicly they should widstand similar amount of turns, or more with little luck with ressurection.  Sure, PG save more (average 50% more hence unmodified save on 4+) But EG still equals it with sheer voliume + resses

BUT, the more Rend enemy have, the more EG falls behind. At Rend -2 EG looses alot more models , even with rerrolling 1s, it dosnt do much when you save on 6+.  

Battleshock: As you know, having bigger voliume is beneficial - but when you loose alot of models each turn, Bettleshock test becomes issue. After first battleround, EG looses average 7 models (VS rend -1) , after that round they have 7+1 bravery, which means you need to roll 1 on dice, anything more is amount of extra models you loose. So it basicly snowballs more, more you loose, more battleshock looses and so on.  Now this is tricky to count (afterall its same % to roll any number on dice), so for a sake of argument i counted Batteshock test was 3 - which means first bettleround you lost 10 models.

It gets even worse, when you facing something dealing Mortar Wounds or Rend -3.  My thinking here is: enemy player will want to take that objective, unless he cant or does not play very good - he willuse his attacking units to do that effectively - so something big and scarry with alot of rend or MW output.

Now. Theres one more thing to consider, Spellweaver and Nomad Prince buffs synergy. This is all sweet, BUT except keeping your objective safe - you also want to take objective, while well positioned spellweaver can potentially reach both places for ressurection, it can be tricky or imposible depending on scenario, and you need to pick whatever he will ress your defense or offence lines. Your nomad prince buff is only 8"", which means if he is here defending objective with EG, he cannot be in the front line - and this is huge - becouse you want your NP to be there becouse of Protective Villey to help you claim that objective.

There is also Shield of Thorns you mentioned - Similar to NP and Spellweaver it would mean your SoTT need to be left on defensive position, which is all good, since their spell and javelins are perfect to buff and throw from behind line,  BUT this is huge 210 points which could give you additional 10 Phoenix Guard and 10 EG at top of it, or extra 30 EG. Then there is also Dispell possibility.  As many people mentioned, i do agree SoTT are not worth their points, maybe except particular enemies or very specific army build.

TLTR: Anvil Scenario

To put it very short and simple - PG looses half the models EG does every combat round, this snoballs in Battlehock phase increasing lost models count for EG. You can compensate this extra by having Speallweaver in range, but this means you need dedicated Spellweaver becouse rest of your army could be far away

EG looses more , the more Rend/MW enemy can output.

On average, PG can witstand 1-2 turns of combat more, thanks to their 4+ unmodified save, more if enemy has mortal wounds/rend 3

Nomad Prince synegy again means that your NP needs to be basicly at the objective, this potentially limit Protective Volley usage - then you need to put some shooting units nearby for PV to even have effect at defending your objective leaving your attacking line weaker

Now there is question about sheer numbers to actually claim victory point when defending objective - which is another discussio, but talking 20 PG should migitate that issue (?)

Chaff / Attacking Line

Taking all i pointed above into consideration, EG looses more on first round of combat before they activate FoB, considering you are attacking the objective, EG moving in front of your force to stop charges for extra shooting round + Protective Volley.

But due to their unique ability to turn from chaff into anvil makes them great candidate for advancing chaff unit that can turn into anvil next turn, but its better if you will charge on second half of battleround so your opponent cannot take double turn - so it needs positioning, but that also counts towards PG.

I think most of my arguments stand here aswell, and considering PG does not loose on value when moving their position here is even stronger (?), but i think their lack of synergy pays more price in attacking line, and sheer numbers of EG you can put out serve better here since you can screen from more directions / cover more of the field to secure your main shooting line.

TLTR

Becouse your NP and WW are here, synergy pays up more. Becouse of more numbers EG can cover more ground and secure your battleline from more directions.

Final toughts:

Just to be clear, i thing EG are amazing for their points worth with unique ability to be screen/anvil unit if nessecarry - every wanderer army should field at least 20 of those guys :)

Battleline Argument is very solid one, especially when you dont want WW to be your general - this is something im struggling with atm, since i want Mist Walker on my Nomad Prince

My conclusion is that PG are excellent at defending points when you dont want to spend too much forces on supporting defensive line ( which is whole point of this conversation), but they propably need to be taken in block of 20 to account for sheer numbers when counting models for Objective Claim. 

Having said that i think i am step closer to include them inside my roster, and i would love to hear more experienced players input on this :)

Not to mention its much less pain to paint 10/20 PG tather than 20/40 EG :P

 

Cheers!

 

PG always. Easy to see that against rend 0 or mortals PG are stronger. On top they can move! And they Don t test if you grab 1 anoited (with it you can reroll wound also and dispell). Plus they hit better on the field cause of their 2x aa, which is on paper equal per point but not in game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2019 at 8:00 PM, Raffonerd said:

PG always. Easy to see that against rend 0 or mortals PG are stronger. On top they can move! And they Don t test if you grab 1 anoited (with it you can reroll wound also and dispell). Plus they hit better on the field cause of their 2x aa, which is on paper equal per point but not in game.

The problem is Phoenix Guard versus Eternal Guard is an unfair comparison without taking points into account. (10 PG are 120, 10 EG are 70).

PG are elite infantry 3+ 3+ with a 4+ save. They compare to Wildwood Rangers, or Swordmasters (stats and points wise). They have the most durability of the lot but lack the rend for a decent punch.

EG are cheap road blocks that have no real punch at all. They serve the role of getting in peoples way and then castling up to make them durable, but they are no where near as durable as PG that is until you compare 20 EG to 10 PG (140 pts to 120 pts) Now they have the same number of attacks, but EG have 20 wounds to PG 10. The Ward save actually make this more equal as the PG really get 15 wounds (10 + 50% saved) but the biggest thing missing is the Wanderer key word. Without that the Battalion is more difficult to fill, battleline is missing and you lose the rerolls 1+ from the nomad prince and -1 to hit from the Waywatcher.

Having seen your list you've made on the other thread, I'm surprised you're still trying to fit that battalion in with a big block of PG. It just soaks up the points and makes it tough forcing you to split the Glade guard and make them less effective. They work best in groups of 30. Personnally I would just go general order allegiance and go made with all the other aelven options.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, GM_Monkey said:

The problem is Phoenix Guard versus Eternal Guard is an unfair comparison without taking points into account. (10 PG are 120, 10 EG are 70).

PG are elite infantry 3+ 3+ with a 4+ save. They compare to Wildwood Rangers, or Swordmasters (stats and points wise). They have the most durability of the lot but lack the rend for a decent punch.

EG are cheap road blocks that have no real punch at all. They serve the role of getting in peoples way and then castling up to make them durable, but they are no where near as durable as PG that is until you compare 20 EG to 10 PG (140 pts to 120 pts) Now they have the same number of attacks, but EG have 20 wounds to PG 10. The Ward save actually make this more equal as the PG really get 15 wounds (10 + 50% saved) but the biggest thing missing is the Wanderer key word. Without that the Battalion is more difficult to fill, battleline is missing and you lose the rerolls 1+ from the nomad prince and -1 to hit from the Waywatcher.

Having seen your list you've made on the other thread, I'm surprised you're still trying to fit that battalion in with a big block of PG. It just soaks up the points and makes it tough forcing you to split the Glade guard and make them less effective. They work best in groups of 30. Personnally I would just go general order allegiance and go made with all the other aelven options.

Have you seen this?

Allegiance: Wanderers
LEADERS
Anointed (80)
- Allies
Nomad Prince (80)
- General
- Command Trait : Stalker of the Hidden Paths
- Artefact : Forget-me-knot
Spellweaver (100)
- Heartwood Staff
Wayfinder (80)
Wayfinder (80)
Wayfinder (80)
- Artefact : Wending Wand
UNITS
20 x Phoenix Guard (280)
- Allies
5 x Wild Riders (100)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (210)
10 x Eternal Guard (70)
20 x Glade Guard (240)
20 x Glade Guard (240)
10 x Glade Guard (120)
BATTALIONS
Waystone Pathfinders (160)
TOTAL: 1970/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 WOUNDS: 130
LEADERS: 6/6 BATTLELINES: 4 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 360/400

My idea is that wanderers as a stand alone army is useless because you cannot threat enemy objectives and lock in combat big units (or any cac elite unit) while you hold your objective and fire some arrows. With that in mind, I 've added PGs because tthey don't test and their wound roll is rerollable. On top of it i have a unit that can tank mortal wounds in the middle field (so it screens) and adds me an unbind roll.

If you have any other idea of list, please let us know. :) Maybe i can improuve this one or change it.

 

Edited by Raffonerd
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if allys and the battalion give you enough room to wiggle.  You are crippling the GG, the EG and the PG IMO here.  If you want to look at 30 Phoenix Guard as allies perhaps consider not using the Battalion, it can be a fairly tight points squeeze.  Just a thought.  Also forums and theory-crafting won't be anywhere near as good as game play experience.  So try it as much as you can and see how you can make the PG work for you :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...