AoS 2 - Dispossessed Discussion

[Syrex]

3 minutes ago, Grumblebeard said:

I waited for the Battletome before start building my 2k Dispossessed army. Now I'm thinking of selling them instead.

Smarter than me.. I was 60 models into my 120... Have put them aside for now to finish my Wanderers.

Hopefully some reasonable point drops save things. The rules themselves are still ok, just not as current pricing. Other than Hammerers, they just don't really stack up well against the alternatives.

[Arkhanist]

Longbeards get +1 against melee attacks with shields, irondrakes get +1 against missile attacks for gromril armour, I think they've just merged both into the +1 profile save for ironbreakers. Re-rolling saves is gone across the board.

Kinda irritating that freeguild guard get a straight +1 save for shields though; on that basis ironbreakers should have a 3+ save (shield) and a +1 against missile attacks (gromril armour).

Hammerers and gyro's were slightly buffed; everything else seems pretty much a wash. I was gearing up to repaint and rebase what valid units I had left of my dispossesed (and finally do my irondrakes) and maybe add some kharadron but yeah, bar significant points drops/good batallion I'm feeling pretty disappointed. Plus the integration in CoS seems non-existant, heros still only buff their small subfaction, no synergies. E.g. Cogsmith only repairs ironweld now.

Running through the grand alliance book to compare to new scrolls really made me feel (again) what we've lost. From my old 8th edition army, I've lost miners, trollslayers, cannons, organ guns, bolt throwers, grudge throwers, flame cannons, warriors, rangers, quarrellers, my beautiful old thunderers, thorgrim's throne (both versions), anvil (both versions) and multiple named characters. Plus my old long drong slayers...

All I have left is metal warriors counting as longbeards (need better greenstuff beards!), hammerers, ironbreakers and a couple of gyros plus runepriests & kings. Might as well sell the lot off to a 9th age player or something.

[Dammaz]

That's... A huge blow.

First axed units, now THIS !

Okay, we get some minors cool stuff, but heck ! No shieldwall and ignore Rend -1 on ironbreakers ?!

That's all my army composition that's gone. Irondrakes need to stand still once more ? How ?!

Warden King grudge now give +1A in melee, no more +1 to wound for all my gunline...

Generally we'll probably hit harder, especially with Hammerers (nice perk by the way...), but we loose our resilience with Shieldwall accross the board.

I can't remember how many time I heard from my friends how sturdy they were.

Everything that made me choose and play Dispossessed just... gone.

It's been two years and half of waiting, patiently, to get this. Frankly, I'll probably set my own way...

 

[Gecktron]

26 minutes ago, Dammaz said:

That's... A huge blow.

First axed units, now THIS !

Okay, we get some minors cool stuff, but heck ! No shieldwall and ignore Rend -1 on ironbreakers ?!

That's all my army composition that's gone. Irondrakes need to stand still once more ? How ?!

Warden King grudge now give +1A in melee, no more +1 to wound for all my gunline...

Generally we'll probably hit harder, especially with Hammerers (nice perk by the way...), but we loose our resilience with Shieldwall accross the board.

I can't remember how many time I heard from my friends how sturdy they were.

Everything that made me choose and play Dispossessed just... gone.

It's been two years and half of waiting, patiently, to get this. Frankly, I'll probably set my own way...

 

Shields now give +1 to their save (which is better than ignoring -1 rend). Re-rolling one has been removed from most units since thats a generic command ability now. 

The longbeard re-rolling ones to wound is now active all the time, not just the combat phase.

[Furuzzolo]

I think you're overlooking the changes with some wishlisty madness in mind.

I find them very good, we never lacked bodies or damage, we're short on mobility and very poor in the objective grabbing game. Hammerers are now NUTS, copters are pretty good and in allegiance, tempest eye give us a 3" move and who knows what the other cities have to offer. (+ prayers and spell)

The Hero steamtank (with a cogsmith model instead of the human ) is solid good and can support very well Hammerers. 

And number 1 change: we're out of the wheelchair. No more "no run or you die in combat" mindset. I played A LOT of games and I found the shieldwall rule to be our worst enemy in every scenario. That's gone. 

[AlmGandix3]

I've got two big units of rangers from avatars of war. At first I thought about using them as freeguild crossbowmen, but after seeing the changes I might use them as shadow warriors. This fits the models perfectly.

 

I don't like most of the changes just like most of you, but just like @Furuzzolo stated the shieldwall mindset was bad for us in the objective game. We don't even know all rules we get from cities, dispossessed faction buffs, artifacts, command traits and prayers (runelord is now a priest).

Overall I'm really curious about the future for normal duardin and 80% of my models will be duardin no matter what (I don't care much about human or aelf rules as long as I can use my grumbling beardlings). 

I might even put my bugmans brewery high King on a griffon, who needs Karl Franz anyway.

[Dammaz]

27 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

Shields now give +1 to their save (which is better than ignoring -1 rend). Re-rolling one has been removed from most units since thats a generic command ability now. 

But you loose reroll of failed save AND ignore Rend -1. Sure they got 3+ Save now, but to me 4+ / 4+ ignore -1 is more efficient.

 

13 minutes ago, Furuzzolo said:

I think you're overlooking the changes with some wishlisty madness in mind.

(...)

And number 1 change: we're out of the wheelchair. No more "no run or you die in combat" mindset. I played A LOT of games and I found the shieldwall rule to be our worst enemy in every scenario. That's gone. 

That's where I strongly disagree and as I said, that's what made me play Dispossessed.

Sure we're slow, but sturdy, and that's what I loved. Put a massive shieldwall facing my opponent, and tear him apart from afar with Irondrakes, artillery or Quarrelers while my ironbreakers were holding the line. If my opponent sit on an objective, rip it with heavy gunline and swipe the remains with axe-work from IB or Hammerers.

Quarrelers and dorf artillery are gone, Shieldwalls are gone and Ironbreakers resilience are gone, Irondrakes needs to be statics to be efficient (so no repositionning on the go), Runic Icons are gone...

That's my opinion as I said, and why I take it so "personnaly". I'm not saying there's nothing left and Dispossessed are gone, I'm saying that's not what got me in the game and how I love to play it. Ergo, I'll probably go my own way.

That doesn't mean I won't try CoS and the new rules, just... That's not my beloved army any more, and how I like to play it.

Greywater Fastness seems fun for big guns afficionados. I'll maybe give it a try.

But my core army, I'll create it on my own. With Blackjack and hookers  grumbling and grudges.

[Syrex]

13 minutes ago, Furuzzolo said:

I think you're overlooking the changes with some wishlisty madness in mind.

I find them very good, we never lacked bodies or damage, we're short on mobility and very poor in the objective grabbing game. Hammerers are now NUTS, copters are pretty good and in allegiance, tempest eye give us a 3" move and who knows what the other cities have to offer. (+ prayers and spell)

The Hero steamtank (with a cogsmith model instead of the human ) is solid good and can support very well Hammerers. 

And number 1 change: we're out of the wheelchair. No more "no run or you die in combat" mindset. I played A LOT of games and I found the shieldwall rule to be our worst enemy in every scenario. That's gone. 

If by "wishlisty madness" you mean not wanting units to go backwards, then sure.

Again, all of this is pretty arbitrary until we see point costs. If costs go down, much of this can be ignored.

Irondrakes can't move if they want to shoot twice, that certainly helps mobility right? I'd also rather ignore rend of 1 than +1 save against missiles. I guess you can take min units now you don't need to keep >10?
Ironbreakers - Lost Ignore 1 rend (Gained 1 save). That on it's own would be a buff, however they've also completely lost their shield rule. Sure, not running/charging to get the bonus wasn't great - Completely removing the rule doesn't count as a buff.
Hammerers - MW output is great. Not sure this puts them in "Nuts" territory, but certainly a good buff.
Longbeards - Overall a nerf, but only because of the shenanigans of running Great Axe + Shield. Otherwise, maybe a slight buff?

I compare Ironbreakers to say, Eternal Guard, or Pheonix Guard and am just left wondering...

Coptors/Steamtanks aren't "Dispossessed" so I'll avoid comment on them.
 

[madmac]

I don't know the old point costs, but:

Ironbreakers are 130/330

Longbeards 110/270

Cogsmith 60

Runelord 90

Warden King 110

Gyrobomber 80/210

GyroCopter 70/180

Hammerers 140/360

Irondrakes 150

[Syrex]

8 minutes ago, madmac said:

I don't know the old point costs, but:

Ironbreakers are 130/330

Longbeards 110/270

Cogsmith 60

Runelord 90

Warden King 110

Gyrobomber 80/210

GyroCopter 70/180

Hammerers 140/360

Irondrakes 150

Thanks - Didn't realise new points were out.

So for Disposessed

Runelord - 80 - 90
Warden King - 100 - 110
Hammerers - Stay 140
Ironbreakers 140/360 - 130/330
Longbeards - 100/270 - 110/270
Irondrakes - 180 - 150

Edited September 28, 2019 by Syrex

[Matt Sandi]

In the new war scrolls there's nothing to say that the runelord prayer abilities can't  stack. On irondrakes  and hammerers ( with warden king buffs) these units are going to be super tanky?

[Skreech Verminking]

24 minutes ago, Matt Sandi said:

In the new war scrolls there's nothing to say that the runelord prayer abilities can't  stack. On irondrakes  and hammerers ( with warden king buffs) these units are going to be super tanky?

Well the only thing that forbid the prayer to stack was a faq, that has now reached invalidation.

[dirkdragonslayer]

4 hours ago, madmac said:

I don't know the old point costs, but:

Ironbreakers are 130/330

Longbeards 110/270

Cogsmith 60

Runelord 90

Warden King 110

Gyrobomber 80/210

GyroCopter 70/180

Hammerers 140/360

Irondrakes 150

That puts the Start Collecting box at 370-400 points depending how you build it. Not optimal, but it's mostly because the "centerpiece" model of this box is the Gyrocopter, which is a low point cost model. A lot of SC boxes have one high points unit, like a Gunhauler or Magmadroth to bring it up to approximately 450-500 points.

[Furuzzolo]

Oh boy, so we can stack the runelord? 

I still have happy memories of my -3 rend Irondrakes melting things on the battlefield 😪

[prochuvi]

I have been called negative many times those last months.........now after see those changues i only can think one thing: any in spain want buy my dispossesed army?

 

This tome is a joke in our face,it havent almost nothing new,it is a compendiun of the fyrestorm alegiances(with almost 0 chamgues). Then add some relic and warlord trait an end.

 

And for dispossesed? We get deleted the 40% of our army,ok.....lets wait for the tome.......then come the warscrolls where EVERY unit have been nerfed(ONLY hammerers have been buffed)........then come the points waiting see huge buffs because you know,dispossesed are a botton tier army and just get insane nerfs to tye scrolls,and what we have? Nerfs to every hero,nerfs to lomgbeards,no changue to hammerers, minor buff to breackers and nice buff to drakes.

 

Im sorry if i have been negative in past but i really realy cant think straigth now. First they deleted half of my army and now they have deleted every icon playstyle of the army also.

 

-reroll saves: lost

 

-ignore spells on 5+: lost

 

-only loose the 50% of models with morale:lost

 

So this tome what have done?i know im being negative and this post gonna be deleted and i gonna be banned but i dont give a ****** at this point.

 

This garbage tome only have deleted the 40% of the disposed army,have deleted every dwarf playstyle,have nerfed every unit in warscrolls and points.

 

How heck any people can think that lomgbeards cost 110??????????? Have 10 wounds with save of 3 yes, but 10 attacks of 3-4-0-1 for 110? Any unit of 80 points do the same or better.

 

Ironbreacker for 130 points when they have lost the ignore rend,the inore spells,the 50% models lost in morale? Heck 100 would be closer to balanced(liberators cost 100 with 10 wounds with save of 4 rerolling 1 and have more damage with the special weapons)

The king now is great for melle units,but before he gave the +1 to wound to drakes that IS our damage unit and now not.

 

In general i have lost every hope in gw after this,gonna try sell my army and never look behind.

 

Only drakes and hammerers have been buffed,ALL our of those two units have been nerfed.

 

Seems now only a full hammerers\drakes with kings buffing hammerers can be playable,no chance to use lomgbeard or breacker because they are useless 

 

Sorry again for all this rant post but i wont post never more so see you guys and i hope any of yours have fun playing with my loved dwarfs

[Matt Sandi]

Still think there's a lot more to be revealed in the battletome. I'm feeling cautiously optimistic to be honest. Loving the fact I can run lots of irondrakes as battle line and  buff them with a ward save and extra rend. Think hammerers will be awesome. With gortrek and a few steam tanks, converted luminarks or hurricanums etc  or stormcast allies we'll be pretty awsome!

[Arkanaut Admiral]

I can’t see the new hammerer warscroll.  Every time I clink the rules link on their entry on the site, it just opens up the exact same page.

[Forrix]

9 hours ago, Syrex said:

Nice summary Arkhanist!
It's really going to come down to point costs.
If there aren't any/many changes, it's all a bit disappointing. Odd that the Ironbreaker warscroll just doesn't mention shields whatsoever.

Yeah, Ironbreakers feel weird. Considering Longbeards get +1 save against melee putting them at a 3+ save against most attacks, get their grumblings, and are 20 points cheaper according to new posted points I'm not seeing any reason to ever take Ironbreakers. I wonder if a shield rule got left off Ironbreakers by mistake. I'd take them if they got a 2+ save in melee.

[Arkanaut Admiral]

They should have kept their gromril armour ability in some form.

[AlmGandix3]

With all the extra rules we get the new command ability of the warden king is a lot better. With all the units and allegiance abilities its really easy to get irondrakes to a 2+ 2+ -how much rend you want    damage depending on the weapon. For me ill trade the rerolls of the shieldwall for more mobility and unit variety every day. Longbeards got a increase because their grumbling is way better now the rerolls now also work for shooting, so you will get like 90% of all irondrake shots through. The luminark and hurricanum are also really insane and cheap now so you can get a 3+ 6++ 6++ on you duardin line.

Id recommend everyone to try the new rules out and use your models as thematic "conversions".

Well if some of you still want to part with their duardin Im happy to take some of them in. Only if you live in europe though, since overseas shipping can be quite expensive.

[pikachoux]

Correct me if im wrong but with the new battletome we lost the thunderers, the crossbows and both cannons?  The only way to play my crossbows and thunderers are as a proxy for freeguild?

[AlmGandix3]

4 minutes ago, pikachoux said:

Correct me if im wrong but with the new battletome we lost the thunderers, the crossbows and both cannons?  The only way to play my crossbows and thunderers are as a proxy for freeguild?

depending on your models and you willingnes for proxies they can be other units aswell. I got dwarf rangers from avatars of war as quarrelers, since I dont really like the crowsbowmen that much I will use them as shadow warriors. 

Thunderers best fit the handgunners and thats what Ill use them for or maybe as grundstock thunderers in tempest eye.

There are also darkshards and sisters of the watch for quarrelers.

As for cannons, the organ gun is a easy alternative for the volley gun. Id use the normal one as a rocket battery and just put any rocket head I can find inside the barrel. If you got multiples of the skullpass one there is alot more you can do with that since its smaller and you can combine multiples for either.

[WatcherintheWater]

Sounds like I’m more positive about the changes than most people. Here are my opinions on what is better/worse:

Better:

-Shields: you can debate whether you would rather have the reroll, but the fact that you get the +1 all the time now is great. Also means we have it on turn 1 if someone alpha strikes us.

-Musicians: Avg run roll is 4.5 now, and you get the charge bonus. If you have some way to teleport a unit and have a command point reroll, you have a 66% chance to make the charge, and tempest eye dwarfs can go 9+d6” on turn 1 if they run!

-Warden King oathstone ability is so much better.

- Hammerers got a real nice buff. 

-Endless spell defense 

Neutral:

-Warden King grudge ability: +1 attack is better than +1 to wound, but now only for combat

-Longbeard grumbling- I quite liked battleshock protection.

-Irondrake shooting

Worse:

-Ironbreakers & Irondrakes trade the ignore tend for +1 save vs shooting.

- Longbeards lose the option to take GW & shield.

- Standards

[Arkhanist]

7 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

I can’t see the new hammerer warscroll.  Every time I clink the rules link on their entry on the site, it just opens up the exact same page.

Yeah, the website link is incorrect and just points to the unit page. You have to follow the same pattern of other URLs for warscrolls and substitute hammerers to get their warscroll i.e.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos_hammerers_eng.pdf

Edited September 29, 2019 by Arkhanist

[Arkhanist]

7 hours ago, Forrix said:

Yeah, Ironbreakers feel weird. Considering Longbeards get +1 save against melee putting them at a 3+ save against most attacks, get their grumblings, and are 20 points cheaper according to new posted points I'm not seeing any reason to ever take Ironbreakers. I wonder if a shield rule got left off Ironbreakers by mistake. I'd take them if they got a 2+ save in melee.

Ironbreakers get 2A in melee, longbeards only get 1 with either weapon.

Longbeards with Great Axe are basically less dangerous hammerers (who also get 2A and extra mortal wounds), longbeards with axe+shield are weaker ironbreakers (with their 2A, 3+ save all the time). Longbeards are cheaper, give grumblings buffs, and will be battleline all the time along with ironbreakers. So it makes some sense from an internal balance perspective, it's when you start comparing to other units in the book (or indeed, what they were) that you start wondering whether you'd be better off with other things.

I think the plan we're expected to use is that without the re-roll saves 'trap' and the new +1 advance/charge musicians we push big units of hammerers/ironbreakers up the field more aggressively (depending upon if you want tougher or harder hitting) with small units of longbeards to support and provide grumbling buffs, along with runepriests to buff defence in 1st turn, then switch to rend prayer and king +1A ability to buff damage. Improved, cheaper gyros for initial strikes and flank harrassing. Runepriests and longbeards to help get rid of endless spells. Obvious synergy with tempest's eye, with improved move and save turn 1. Irondrakes are a bit stuffed; with only a 16" range they want to move up, but need to stand still to get their 2A.

Steam tanks look like they might be a good fit for the 'grinding advance' style we're being pushed into, and the option of 1 in 4 units being stormcast - maybe their ballistas? Don't know stormcast very well.

The old 'sit back and shoot them to pieces because we're hard as nails' style is definitely dead with the loss of canons, organ guns, quarrelers and thunderers and the loss of re-roll saves. Ironweld + greywater fastness + freeguild bubblewrap I think is the new gunline army.

As an aside, I won't be using my old units as 'counts as' other races; aside from the difference in statlines, the keywords not overlapping (such as not getting longbeard buffs etc because they're not actually dispossessed units) would just be a risk for confusing my opponent too much for my taste, unless I somehow find a regular gaming group.