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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Dispossessed Discussion

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I can't remember if I'd already posted this before, but have a Grudgekeeper I made for my throng. 

Grudgekeeper painted.jpg

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Hello guys,

I've been lurking this topic for some time as it seems to be full of worthy advices from longbeards like you and also pretty informative about what may be coming for our noble race.

I've played WFB 6th edition a bit 10 years ago ! And now that I've stumbled upon my collection of bearded minis I've felt an urge to get all that hair and metal painted and fielded on a battleground again.

I've contacted a local group and we will be playing progressives games of 500, 750 and 1000 points. I've read the free rules and warscrolls and started to listen/read to some material regarding how to play, how to make lists and how to be a fierce duardin, and that's what got me here.

I've not set my mind on the list I would be playing, but it will revolve a lot around packs of warriors and thunderers/quarrelers (bonus if I can field that badass goblin-hewer that I'm found about 😍 ). I will probably be toying and experimenting around with list configuration while I'm learning the ropes.

Though my immediate concerns is on assembling those warriors, so I'll get to the point:

Quote

On warriors, are double-handed axes always more effective than their single handed-counterpart?

On the paper, it seems that a pack of > 20 would better benefits from their rules about re-rolling failed to-wound, since better to-hit means statistically more hits and then the re-roll could trigger quite often. Though as it only activates on opponent's turn it may be to marginal to be considered.

On another hand, re-rolling 1s on 3+ rolls with +1 from the Warden King seems pretty nasty...

I'm also troubled if I should assemble my shooty guys either as quarrelers or thunderers, though I have some metal ones to play with before I should make my decision. But maybe their effectiveness change drastically when getting above 20? I dunno...

 

It could be nice if we get our war machines back into the allegiance in the future, but what I miss the most from our glory days (remember when we were an "elite" army? 😛 ) is to engrave runes on just about every piece of my army!

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27 minutes ago, raaaahman said:

n the paper, it seems that a pack of > 20 would better benefits from their rules about re-rolling failed to-wound, since better to-hit means statistically more hits and then the re-roll could trigger quite often. Though as it only activates on opponent's turn it may be to marginal to be considered.

I dont think that difference is massive & without doing the math I’m convinced the rend on the great weapons is more valuable in the course of the turn. So regardless if you will take more advantage at >20 of the re-roll with hand axes the rend will be more efficient. 

But love to be proven wrong by somebody who is available to do the math. 

On a side note I think unit size should be based on intended battlefield role. So you want them to screen and speed bump a turn. I’d rather take 2 units of 10, otherwise big units are king in this edition of AoS (although I personally think 40 man squads are very unwieldy. Never tried with warriors but this is based on my experience with dreadspears and clanrats. )

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50 minutes ago, Kramer said:

I dont think that difference is massive & without doing the math I’m convinced the rend on the great weapons is more valuable in the course of the turn. So regardless if you will take more advantage at >20 of the re-roll with hand axes the rend will be more efficient. 

But love to be proven wrong by somebody who is available to do the math. 

On a side note I think unit size should be based on intended battlefield role. So you want them to screen and speed bump a turn. I’d rather take 2 units of 10, otherwise big units are king in this edition of AoS (although I personally think 40 man squads are very unwieldy. Never tried with warriors but this is based on my experience with dreadspears and clanrats. )

@Kramer is on point, the 40 man is very good but you need to deploy and move thinking way ahead. If the opponent engage them wisely you get stuck with 10 attacking a unit, 10 another and  20 in the middle kinda keeping coherency. Removing models from wound is very painful in this scenario.

I've never done the math and I'll whenever i have 30min but i always like the rend when possible, -1 is good but you can easly stack it to -2 from the Runelord and that's when the math really change. -2 is the jump from "a couple of wounds" to "mortal wounds" for a lot of units in the game!

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The only time that one handed weapon warriors are better is when fighting a lot of Nighthaunt since they ignore rend. Since you can take shields with both weapon options the double handed axe is almost always better. If we ever get a battletome I expect that to be a rule changed. 

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Hi @raaaahman !

Quick question for you, 'cause something is ticking me.

You french ? From Lyon ? ;)

And you got the gobo-lobber ?! 🤩

 

40 warriors are pretty sturdy in my opinion, when you're playing (like me) agains't BoC or BCR.

They don't deal much damage, but they can stop your opponent and leave them to your Irondrakes fire. or Cannons. or Quarrelers. Or whatever-you-can-throw-at-them.

 

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9 hours ago, raaaahman said:

Hello guys,

I've been lurking this topic for some time as it seems to be full of worthy advices from longbeards like you and also pretty informative about what may be coming for our noble race.

I've played WFB 6th edition a bit 10 years ago ! And now that I've stumbled upon my collection of bearded minis I've felt an urge to get all that hair and metal painted and fielded on a battleground again.

I've contacted a local group and we will be playing progressives games of 500, 750 and 1000 points. I've read the free rules and warscrolls and started to listen/read to some material regarding how to play, how to make lists and how to be a fierce duardin, and that's what got me here.

I've not set my mind on the list I would be playing, but it will revolve a lot around packs of warriors and thunderers/quarrelers (bonus if I can field that badass goblin-hewer that I'm found about 😍 ). I will probably be toying and experimenting around with list configuration while I'm learning the ropes.

Though my immediate concerns is on assembling those warriors, so I'll get to the point:

On the paper, it seems that a pack of > 20 would better benefits from their rules about re-rolling failed to-wound, since better to-hit means statistically more hits and then the re-roll could trigger quite often. Though as it only activates on opponent's turn it may be to marginal to be considered.

On another hand, re-rolling 1s on 3+ rolls with +1 from the Warden King seems pretty nasty...

I'm also troubled if I should assemble my shooty guys either as quarrelers or thunderers, though I have some metal ones to play with before I should make my decision. But maybe their effectiveness change drastically when getting above 20? I dunno...

 

It could be nice if we get our war machines back into the allegiance in the future, but what I miss the most from our glory days (remember when we were an "elite" army? 😛 ) is to engrave runes on just about every piece of my army!

Nice to see someone returning with their dwarf force. Your goblin hewer can be used as a organ gun, you can look older models up in the compendium for dwarfs. For me quarrelers are always better than thunderers in blocks of 30. I really like their melee weapons as well, since you can punch back with 4+ 4+ -1( with runelord) attacks. If you are thinking of a unit of 10 I'd always go for thunderers. With a unit of 20 thunderers I always think about using 10 irondrakes instead an have some spare points. Yeah you got less wounds but the gun of the champion is really worth it (he nearly killed gordrak alone).

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Thank you all for your insights!

1 hour ago, Dammaz said:

You french ? From Lyon ? ;)

Indeed! Are you from the protocole? Or maybe CPC? ;) (send PM)

1 hour ago, Dammaz said:

And you got the gobo-lobber ?! 🤩

I'm talking about Malakai Malakaison's contraption here, and I do own it!

8 hours ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

 If we ever get a battletome I expect that to be a rule changed. 

That's something that's bothering me, it would suck to have to put on the shelf big blocks of trustworthy warriors... But if I understand correctly this is nothing but rumours right now, right?

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9 hours ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

The only time that one handed weapon warriors are better is when fighting a lot of Nighthaunt since they ignore rend. Since you can take shields with both weapon options the double handed axe is almost always better. If we ever get a battletome I expect that to be a rule changed. 

Check my math but 3+ 4+ vs. 4+ 3+ doesn’t mathematically differ. Adding re-rolls all failed to wound is a small advantage.:

100 at 4+ means 50 hits, at 3+ means 33,333 hits after re-rolls: 43,1 hits.

100 at 3+ Means 66,666 hits. At 4+ to wound 33,333 hits. With re-rolls: 50

I call that small because I don’t think you will get hundred attacks out of that unit of 40 over the course of a game.

so unless you are tailoring your list to nighthaunt I think your better off taking great weapons (especially if you play strict wysiwyg ;) )

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Currently painting up a unit 20 miners with the mining cart but on paper the unit looks like it can chuck put some real nasty damage. Especially with the steam drill, 2H weapons and the whole unit throwing blasting charges while in combat in the shooting phase. Anyone have any experiences with using miners? 

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9 hours ago, Zadolix said:

Currently painting up a unit 20 miners with the mining cart but on paper the unit looks like it can chuck put some real nasty damage. Especially with the steam drill, 2H weapons and the whole unit throwing blasting charges while in combat in the shooting phase. Anyone have any experiences with using miners? 

I didn't use them in a dispossessed army since they can't be allies. I'm mainly using them as warriors (I just put a shield on their back). They seem really good, maybe one-day GW brings their plastic kit back and gives them the dispossessed keyword. This would be a huge boost to our mobility.

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16 hours ago, Zadolix said:

Currently painting up a unit 20 miners with the mining cart but on paper the unit looks like it can chuck put some real nasty damage. Especially with the steam drill, 2H weapons and the whole unit throwing blasting charges while in combat in the shooting phase. Anyone have any experiences with using miners? 

They don’t seem all that special to me honestly, and they can’t be taken in our army legally. They would add mobility but I figure that will be sorted out whenever we get a battletome. 

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Hey just to throw it out there, what percentage of your games as disspo are you fellas winning? I've played about 10-15 games and won only once. To be fair I've mostly fought khorne and bcr, but I have very little luck no matter the tactics I try. I'm starting to consider shelving my dwarves until some sort of update happens.  when I play as my gut busters I usually win or at least come close but with my dwarves it's usually a crushing defeat.

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Not gonna lie, I play them a fair bit and achieve around 30% winrate ;)  My Stormcast and even my Kharadron are way better in terms of winrate but still...a lot of games are very intense and played to the last round, we struggle but it's very fun!

Keep playing them, you're not going to win a lot but with practice and experience Dispossessed become decently good!

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For games with killing as the objective I did really well against death, ironjawz and sylvaneth. Most of my matches were 2v2 so that might not count but we do pack a heavy punch. As for objective games I won some games but only with the ghb2017 where you could use the pickaxe + 80 pt runesmiter and vulkite berserkers. We just lack the mobility and a way to get around our opponent but I want to try a list with cannons. So I can hold my objectives and still pressure my opponent. For moving objectives or ones which appear later in the game(not when they appear in our lines) I was never able to win and don't know how without using grand alliance order. I want to test some mobile allies to see if I can counter that somehow, but that will have to wait for after my dwarfen are rebase to round bases.

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13 hours ago, AlmGandix3 said:

As for objective games I won some games but only with the ghb2017 where you could use the pickaxe + 80 pt runesmiter and vulkite berserkers.

What changed since then?

Also I wonder, which faction was your team mate playing in 2v2 matches? Wasn't he doing all the killing while you were tanking?

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45 minutes ago, raaaahman said:

What changed since then?

Also I wonder, which faction was your team mate playing in 2v2 matches? Wasn't he doing all the killing while you were tanking?

The smiter got increased to 120 pts which doesn't fit in that nicely anymore especially with the now 100 pt cost for runelords.

As allies I had death, ironjawz with this exact army but my warriors (with 6+ save after save from runelords) and berserkers were tanking quite well. I also used a block of 30 quarrelers which did hold out along time and did a lot of damage.

 

Dealing damage with dispossessed is no problem, if you get the positioning right. All our ranged units are good and can get extra rend. 

One game evening at my local GW we played a 3v3 match and I singlehandedly killed gordrak, 3 goregruntas and half an ardboy unit. While tanking them myself. I had to leave early so I couldn't destroy my other opponents units. 

Dispossessed is all about positioning and planning ahead just like chess. You need to tarpit your opponent and "tickle"(can substitute for shred) him with rend -1 to -3. You are playing against nighthaunt? No problem just use the defensive rune and a Volley of 60 shots will do the deal.

Edited by AlmGandix3
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Dispossessed at the moment is no easy army and a player who got in the top ten of dancing with them said that alot of his wins were due to opponents not knowing what they are capable of. He also used a celestant prime for added mobility and used the pickaxe for ironbreakers which results in a teleporting unmovable line of armored cursing beards.

I really want to try somethings to make dispossessed more viable for objective games. Some of my ideas got crushed, like using the cogs(dwarfs ignore the buff on a 5+). After my dwarfs are on their new bases I want to try grand alliance order with a hurricanum and helstorm batteries. With that my dwarfs can concentrate on advancing while they get long-range support. I also want to try endriggers because they seem to fill exactly the niche I'm looking for. If our battalion had lower requirements we could really go out, I think.

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The new Skaven battletome makes references to Duardin Karaks. There is even a small picture of what looks like a duardin hold in the realm of fire. Most importantly, the statues shown bear horned helmets like Dispossessed warriors. There is also this small section that describes a battle between Skaven and Duardin. The Duardin are implied to be using gunpowder with guns and cannons. In another section, Skaven have captured Karak-a-Zaruk and are described as using the former forges for the creation of warp weapons. 

I really like the hints at what might be Dispossessed in the newest battletomes. It is worth noting that they never name the Dispossessed. I think this might be because they are going to get a new name if they ever get a battletome. Dispossessed is definitely not very copyright friendly. 

Skaven Dispossessed.png

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So in the Skaven book the Poisoned Wind Mortar team didn't make it into the book, and doesn't have a warscroll in the compendium, yet has a points value on the warscroll builder which is very confusing.

Are we likely to see this happen with the old bolt thrower and grudge thrower too when we get our book since they are not on the website anymore?

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1 hour ago, Zadolix said:

So in the Skaven book the Poisoned Wind Mortar team didn't make it into the book, and doesn't have a warscroll in the compendium, yet has a points value on the warscroll builder which is very confusing.

Are we likely to see this happen with the old bolt thrower and grudge thrower too when we get our book since they are not on the website anymore?

I'm think this may happen since the models are no longer manufactured. The poison wind mortar will probably cycle out when the new handbook drops. If we don't get a book, I don't see anything from the dwarf faction(not dispossessed, they also can't be allies)will go away. 

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6 hours ago, Zadolix said:

So in the Skaven book the Poisoned Wind Mortar team didn't make it into the book, and doesn't have a warscroll in the compendium, yet has a points value on the warscroll builder which is very confusing.

Are we likely to see this happen with the old bolt thrower and grudge thrower too when we get our book since they are not on the website anymore?

It's not that confusing - the book is right, and the warscroll builder has errors.

 

It is possible but unlikely that grudge thrower could be added back in at some point.  But errors in the warscroll builder aren't evidence of it.

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It just strikes me as strange that the poisoned wind mortar isn't even in the compendium or the AoS app, yet is still in the warscroll builder. Especially since the warscroll builder is an official tool that gets updated with the new releases too.

On the plus side I've just found out that GW actually brought back the old discontinued metal warpfire thrower onto their store (released 1995!) when it wasn't on there before this Skaven battletome release. (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Skaven-Warpfire-Thrower-2019)

The metal bolt thrower and grudge thrower are from 2006 and even made it to finecast production as well, so there's hope yet that they may bring them back and resell them :)

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1 minute ago, Zadolix said:

It just strikes me as strange that the poisoned wind mortar isn't even in the compendium or the AoS app, yet is still in the warscroll builder. Especially since the warscroll builder is an official tool that gets updated with the new releases too.

On the plus side I've just found out that GW actually brought back the old discontinued metal warpfire thrower onto their store (released 1995!) when it wasn't on there before this Skaven battletome release. (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Skaven-Warpfire-Thrower-2019)

The metal bolt thrower and grudge thrower are from 2006 and even made it to finecast production as well, so there's hope yet that they may bring them back and resell them :)

Ohhh!  I hope that happens! :D

Because they never got a good showing did they?

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I really like their current rules, and the sculpts still hold up well. They just need the dispossessed keywords and they would be very effective with our current abilities from the Runelord and Warden King

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