AoS 2 - Dispossessed Discussion

[Furuzzolo]

By the way it's very hard for me to understand the difference between 40 warriors (280) and 30 longbeards (270). I get it, you lose 10 wounds, 10 bodies but the 4+ save make up for the wounds against every -1 rend attack, the reroll to wound should be better then 10 more attacks.

Has anyone done the math? They look strictly better to me...

[prochuvi]

Warriors have 16% worse save but a 30% more wounds,so  tanking are  better the warriors.

 

In damage the warriors does 13 damage(without the reroll wounds in enemy turn) and lomgbeards does less than 11 damage with the reroll 1 to wound.

 

So warriors are way better than lomgbeards in damage and tanking,but longbeards have the aura of reroll wound.

 

To me longbeards are great in unit of 10 only to give the aura

[Bladedwind]

I have toyed with idea of running a smaller more elite 1k list of just Longbeards as a front line.

1 Warden King 120

1 Runelord 100

20 Longbeards 200

20 Longbeards 200

20 Irondrakes 360

 

I find it mostly funny because in my head the two main frontlines would just yell and grumble at each other when not doing the same to their lords or the Irondrake units, engaging in heated argument with each other. Mental image is hilarious to me.

[AlmGandix3]

Longboards don't get the runic icon which is a big minus for me with all the casters and endless spells. And I got better experience with 40 warriors since we ignore Battleschock halve the time. It also depends on your local meta, if there are no spell heavy armies then you don't need the runic icon.

[JackStreicher]

5 hours ago, Bladedwind said:

I have toyed with idea of running a smaller more elite 1k list of just Longbeards as a front line.

1 Warden King 120

1 Runelord 100

20 Longbeards 200

20 Longbeards 200

20 Irondrakes 360

 

I find it mostly funny because in my head the two main frontlines would just yell and grumble at each other when not doing the same to their lords or the Irondrake units, engaging in heated argument with each other. Mental image is hilarious to me.

I tried it, spoiler: you die

[Kramer]

8 hours ago, Bladedwind said:

I have toyed with idea of running a smaller more elite 1k list of just Longbeards as a front line.

1 Warden King 120

1 Runelord 100

20 Longbeards 200

20 Longbeards 200

20 Irondrakes 360

 

I find it mostly funny because in my head the two main frontlines would just yell and grumble at each other when not doing the same to their lords or the Irondrake units, engaging in heated argument with each other. Mental image is hilarious to me.

Hehe grumbling is fun  

on the list side of things. I feel like you might get challenged a bit much on the objectives. Do you play on a 4x4 at 1K? We don’t and on a 6x4 you’ll struggle definitely (but almost any dispossessed list does) but on a 4x4 if think you’ll be quite good. Will you be pickaxing the warden king with a unit of long beards to a flank/back line while advancing the other unit as a screen around the core of irondrakes? 

[Dammaz]

I personaly stand by my huge 40 warriors blop since that one time they took a full BCR charge in the face and only said : "Nah, you may kill 10-15 one of us, but mark my words : You shall not pass !". They stood for 3 turn, with only 4 of them left, but... They were there, still holding.

Maybe it was luck, but I think 40 of them are quite tanky for 280pts. And they hit quite hard in retaliation, with rerolls and Grudge from Warden King.

I see them as "Just hold and push back while our friends back there send you flying..."

[Arkanaut Admiral]

What are the odds that the duardin ironweld units will be grouped with the dispossessed again come a future Battletome?

 

[Furuzzolo]

7 minutes ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

What are the odds that the duardin ironweld units will be grouped with the dispossessed again come a future Battletome?

 

Imho very low. Ironweld arsenal lorewise (at least in the novels i read) is a very independent force at the side of the free guilds.

Duardins are in the Arsenal and operate the cannons and guns but they are not identified as Dispossessed.

I've seen Duardin in the books (the red hour, soul wars and the spear of shadow) but they usually stand alone, as clans or mercenaries. That narrative-wise....and the Ironweld arsernal& free people group up in the shop kinda prove that.

[eciu]

4 minutes ago, Furuzzolo said:

Imho very low. Ironweld arsenal lorewise (at least in the novels i read) is a very independent force at the side of the free guilds.

Duardins are in the Arsenal and operate the cannons and guns but they are not identified as Dispossessed.

I've seen Duardin in the books (the red hour, soul wars and the spear of shadow) but they usually stand alone, as clans or mercenaries. That narrative-wise....and the Ironweld arsernal& free people group up in the shop kinda prove that.

Well problem with Dispossesed is that they have lost all their "special" aspects. Berserksers/slayers went the way of Fyreslayers, engineering went either to KO or to Ironweld Arsenal. All what Dispossesed are left is "standard" infratry and single generic lord and single "priest" (also Fyreslayers seems to be big on runes topic so it is doubtfull if Dispossesed can also expand in this direction). 

[Arkanaut Admiral]

16 minutes ago, Furuzzolo said:

Imho very low. Ironweld arsenal lorewise (at least in the novels i read) is a very independent force at the side of the free guilds.

Duardins are in the Arsenal and operate the cannons and guns but they are not identified as Dispossessed.

I've seen Duardin in the books (the red hour, soul wars and the spear of shadow) but they usually stand alone, as clans or mercenaries. That narrative-wise....and the Ironweld arsernal& free people group up in the shop kinda prove that.

This is actually fantastic!

Hear me out; let the Overlords and those Duardin working with the humans have all the guns etc.  The stand alone Khazalid/Khazukan Kingdom dwarves can return to good old fashioned weaponary and runic magic.  Crossbows, throwing axes and grudge throwers etc.  Something to distinguish them, so they aren’t just a shorter, hairier version of the free guild.

Although I’ve not read much of the fluff (sorry 😞) so I don’t know how much of a good idea this is.  

Edited January 24, 2019 by Arkanaut Admiral

[Kramer]

9 minutes ago, eciu said:

o Fyreslayers seems to be big on runes topic so it is doubtfull if Dispossesed can also expand in this direction). 

Read The latest inferno. Dwarfs are still the craftsman they always were including runes. 

[eciu]

3 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Read The latest inferno. Dwarfs are still the craftsman they always were including runes. 

Yea, but it appears that Fyreslayers had taken this concept and went with it "ad infinitum" (putting runes into/onto their own bodies). 

[Dammaz]

Their may be a "special" aspect for our dawis.

WARNING : This is highly personal suggestion stuff.

We all know that Grimnir died and with his death were formed the Fyreslayers.

Grungni has disappeared since ages, and is more related (IMO) to the Ironweld and the Kharadrons than our Dispossessed.

BUT their was 3 majors duardins gods : Grimnir, Grungni and Valaya.

Valaya died during the End of Times, and since then, nothing about her. With the end of the Soul Wars and the release of heroes of ancient time, I wouldn't be surprised to see her back for the Dispo.

She could represent a more traditional vision of duardins, in opposition to Fyreslayers and Kharadrons.

Maybe I'm wrong I missed something lore-wise, maybe it's only speculations, but still... :)

[Arkanaut Admiral]

In the Old World, the Dwarves managed to build all their magnificent halls without steam power.  In AoS, the Duardin could take this idea and run to the hills with it.  Runic magic, ancestor spirits, golems etc.  Again, leave the steam engines and guns for the Overlords and the Ironweld Arsenal.  Let the Dispossessed stay traditional.

@Dammaz

You and I think alike!  The Dispossessed can be the ‘Valaya’ faction of the dwarves.

Yeah, it’s all coming together!

[eciu]

13 minutes ago, Dammaz said:

Valaya died during the End of Times

Afaik this is not exactly true. She was drained of her magic, if she had died is rather unknown/disputable. 

[Furuzzolo]

I've placed all my TGA reactions for the day. Only to state that i'd love to ❤️ all of your comments!

[Deepkin]

We know Grungni lives and is still very much involved with the dwarfs though. He plays a prominent role in the Spear of Shadows novel, where he lives among the dwarfs quite openly and even has a discussion with Grombrindal (which reveal that the Grungni of this world may not be the same as the Grungni of the Warhammer world, as he cannot remember if he is Grombrindal's ancestor or his descendant, from which I derive my theory that Grungni and Grimnir of AoS are Thorgrim Grudgebearer and Ungrim Ironfist reborn, perhaps in part due to their status as incarnates prior to their deaths.) 

I suspect we will get some sort of Dreadnought-esque rune golem, based off of the ancestor spirits we see in A Dirge of Dust and Steel and the fact that Grungni was heavily involved in the Stormcast process, so perhaps he did so by drawing on a dwarf practice of infusing particularly vengeful ancestors into golem bodies after they died, preserving their spirits from Nagash (though it is hinted that Gazul still lives, after a fashion) and allowing them to settle grudges into eternity.

I will also admit I am partial to the idea of dwarfen bear cavalry and hope we get that too. Or perhaps massive chariots pulled by steam-powered beasts? Or dwarfs riding massive, beast-shaped golems powered by rune magic and steam power (which were referenced in the 8th ed BRB, but never made into models, alongside "ancestor engines").

Im quite excited, they could do so many cool things IMO. Priority one is give us rune magic back so we can tool up our thanes and kings into character-smashing, unit destroying, grudge-reckoning machines (it works in the ninth age!)

[eciu]

22 minutes ago, Deepkin said:

Grombrindal

Obviously he is alive, we got his model for AoS 😜

<runs away>

[Furuzzolo]

1 hour ago, eciu said:

single generic lord and single "priest"

Never forget the Unforged. Never.

🤧

[Dammaz]

1 minute ago, Furuzzolo said:

Never forget the Unforged.

Going to call him Max, as he is mad and a Sawed-off Shotgun expert...

[Dr Ben]

2 hours ago, Deepkin said:

We know Grungni lives and is still very much involved with the dwarfs though. He plays a prominent role in the Spear of Shadows novel, where he lives among the dwarfs quite openly and even has a discussion with Grombrindal (which reveal that the Grungni of this world may not be the same as the Grungni of the Warhammer world, as he cannot remember if he is Grombrindal's ancestor or his descendant, from which I derive my theory that Grungni and Grimnir of AoS are Thorgrim Grudgebearer and Ungrim Ironfist reborn, perhaps in part due to their status as incarnates prior to their deaths.) 

I suspect we will get some sort of Dreadnought-esque rune golem, based off of the ancestor spirits we see in A Dirge of Dust and Steel and the fact that Grungni was heavily involved in the Stormcast process, so perhaps he did so by drawing on a dwarf practice of infusing particularly vengeful ancestors into golem bodies after they died, preserving their spirits from Nagash (though it is hinted that Gazul still lives, after a fashion) and allowing them to settle grudges into eternity.

I will also admit I am partial to the idea of dwarfen bear cavalry and hope we get that too. Or perhaps massive chariots pulled by steam-powered beasts? Or dwarfs riding massive, beast-shaped golems powered by rune magic and steam power (which were referenced in the 8th ed BRB, but never made into models, alongside "ancestor engines").

Im quite excited, they could do so many cool things IMO. Priority one is give us rune magic back so we can tool up our thanes and kings into character-smashing, unit destroying, grudge-reckoning machines (it works in the ninth age!)

 

I'm also hoping for some pretty awesome dwarf-bots, vengeful ancestor spirit powered golems would fit the bill nicely. Valaya would be interesting and creates a very natural space for some female duardin characters which I would like to see. But still..... Golems and massive adapted mining machinery to burrow up and crush enemies into pulp for me please. 

I like your idea linking duardin constructs with the forging/reforing process via Grugni. If that was the case then a sneaky dispossessed release would kind of fit in as part of the soul wars storyline. They are the classic enemies of the Gobbos who just got re-released and Skaven who are hotly tipped for the same treatment, so it would kind of make sense to see a Dispossessed release from that point of view too........ Nah I'm just gettingover-excited.  

Anyway I still need to get enough regular bearded dudes painted by the time anything comes out whenever that might be. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Dr Ben

[Shankelton]

5 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

What are the odds that the duardin ironweld units will be grouped with the dispossessed again come a future Battletome?

 

I'd honestly prefer to lose them permanently to ironweld.  Innovators and inventors really occupy the KO fantsy now, plus it opens up a ton of creative room if we leave steam-powered/ Black Powder stuff behind. I just want to see runic prayers/master-craftsmanship/Tradition as the centre of Dispossessed fantasy. Let them be a little high fantasy to fit into Age of sigmar, and draw a line to how they lept to the KO way of thinking, but keep a strong foot in the traditional dwarf fantasy.

Even if we don't get golems i'd be fine. Always nice to get something you never even thought of/knew you wanted. Just so long as they keep that solid heart.

[Drorik]

On 1/23/2019 at 5:14 PM, Furuzzolo said:

By the way it's very hard for me to understand the difference between 40 warriors (280) and 30 longbeards (270). I get it, you lose 10 wounds, 10 bodies but the 4+ save make up for the wounds against every -1 rend attack, the reroll to wound should be better then 10 more attacks.

Has anyone done the math? They look strictly better to me...

Shield Wall    0    -1    -2    -3/MW
40DW    90    55.38    40    40
30LB    120    60    40    30
                
Normal    0    -1    -2    -3/MW
40DW    60    48    40    40
30LB    60    45    36    30
                
Damage    Wounds at -1    Averaged over two turns        
40DW    13.33    15.55        
40DW*    17.8    15.55        
30LB    11.66    11.66        

 

The first one is average number Wounds needed to destroy if using shield wall.

The second is average number of Wounds needed if not using shield wall.

The third is the average number of wounds dealt at -1 rend if every member of the unit gets to attack

* This is the number of wounds if the Dwarf Warriors are allowed their reroll, while the second column is the average of getting it for one turn and then not for another.

Ultimately, Longbeards are better at defending with Shieldwall while Warriors do better than Longbeards when not using Shieldwall as well as dealing better with Mortal Wounds of course. 

For combat, Warriors will do more damage assuming everyone gets to fight, which may not always be the case. Thus this area is still debatable.

I would say one could afford to switch more frequently between offence and defense with Warriors whereas Longbeards would have a greater benefit loss. One could also take the 5+ resistance to magic for Warriors and the other grumble options of the Longbeards into consideration.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Drorik

[Arkanaut Admiral]

I think we need to think outside the box for duardin.  Look at the Middle Earth dwarves for example; big iron chariots pulled by big angry rams.  AoS could take something like that and run to the hills with it!

I wouldn’t advocate dwarf cavalry, but dwarf chariots.....maybe?