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AoS 2 - Dispossessed Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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Tempest Eye is interesting indeed for the save bonus and especially for the movement bonus, but I feel as we pay too much for it.

Either we give up our 50% battleshock immunity, which is huge, especially on expensive infantry such as Irondrakes or Hammerers, or we need to make an Order list.

Making an Order list sounds good, since we can take the Grudgebound Throng, but for me it is just not competitive at all. First, we pay 170 points for it. Not great, not terrible.

But, imho, the worst is that we need to take 4 different units between warriors/longbeards/quarrelers/thunderers. While longbeards are okay and a couple of units have their place, the rest is just not efficient. GW has been pushing us to play an elite army of Dispossessed by making Ironbreakers/Irondrakes/Hammerers more competitive, and this is already our best choice.

I really think to be even remotely competitive we need to have no warriors/thunderers and barely any longbeards. Hence why Order armies with Grudgebound are not competitive, and why we can't try to make a competitive fully Dispossessed Tempest Eye list.

But then again, Tempest Eye is great for the fluff. A combined arm airborne list, with minimal Dispossessed entries, could be very fun and hold its own.

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Thunderers don't seem to be the worst? 3+/3+/-1/1 is fairly decent for reaching out and hurting stuff, plus they have shields if need be. Even if playing pure dispossessed you need 30 Warriors, Longbeards, Thunderers if Quarrelers for Battleline so the extra ten are easy to stomach. The only real tax is the unforged, but even he could have a use I bet and is now only 80pts. Extra artefact, command point and lower drops is great too.

I'm not expecting a 5/0 army (or even 4/1) with the GBWT but 3/2 seems doable using it as a core with good Order units in the right city.

Going for Tempests Eye, what are the best units from the allowed factions? Stormcast, Free People, Kharadron Overlords, Swifthawk Agents, Eldritch Council, Dispossessed, Ironweld Arsenal.

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6 hours ago, Zadolix said:

I toyed with the idea of a 2nd Runelord but I don't think his impact would be that big on 10 man units to be honest. Whereas with the Unforged he just helps to give that spearhead a little bit of damage and muscle if they get charged early. He always rerolls 1s to hit and wounds on 2+ naturally against anything with multiple wounds so he's a nice little deterrant and my opponent would have to make the choice of targeting him over the other units.

I've just realised I can only have 1 battleline unit in the spearhead so what I've done is invalid. You're right with the thunderers, I just realised too that I can't take a 20 man unit of them in the spearhead or main body. They would have to be in the rearguard for a unit of 20 which just isnt worth it. So maybe something like this instead:

Spearhead

Unforged (80)

10x Ironbreakers (140)

10x Thunderers (120)

10x Thunderers (120)

Main Body

Warden King (100) - Ancestral Pickaxe - go with the warriors

Runelord (80)

20x Warriors (180) - Shields and Axes

10x Longbeards (100) - Shields and 2H axes

Rearguard

Gyrocopter (80) - Or a Runelord??

AoSGHMeetingEngage-Jun11-ArmyChart2id.jpg

Looks solid. The only doubt I would still have is the pick axe. Get in turn 2, Remove, ge back in turn 3 (no movement) where your dependent on a 9" charge. Turn 4 regain full control. 

I think I might look into the malign portents artefacts for something to protect/buff up the Unforged. But I might be too pessimistic here. I would play it 2/3 times just to see how it works in practice.  

Rearguard Gyrocopter seems good. The order of arrival is dependent on the scenario. So if it arrives last, great you can get it in there fast. If it's first you will most likely claim an early objective. Hmm now that I wrote that down, i'm not sure if the extra survivability of the bomber isn't better. 12" should be enough to claim it on a small table. BUT the Gyroopter with the Brimstone Gun has a better chance to get you some Victory points for kills. 

Hmm go with which you think is coolest I guess  ;) 

Do you know if there is a scenario where the main body arrives first?

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24 minutes ago, Charlo said:

Thunderers don't seem to be the worst? 3+/3+/-1/1 is fairly decent for reaching out and hurting stuff, plus they have shields if need be. Even if playing pure dispossessed you need 30 Warriors, Longbeards, Thunderers if Quarrelers for Battleline so the extra ten are easy to stomach. The only real tax is the unforged, but even he could have a use I bet and is now only 80pts. Extra artefact, command point and lower drops is great too

They arent the worst. Nor are Quarrelers in bigger units. But that's kind of where for most it falls down a bit. Because the sheer amount of shots from the big unit bonus for Quarrellers makes them better than the thunderers. Although Thunderers outperform in small units so for the battalion.

Also if you only include the warriors to screen... the Quarrellers have a 5+ re-rollable as well. So maybe worth the 3x30pts. And you get some shots off.  

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If you don't mind using elves and humans in your tempest eye list I got 2 that I will definitely try out. One is completely disgusting if it goes off and the other one will let you keep your ironjawz friends.

One of the best things of tempest eye is, that in turn one your Skywardens(now 100 points again yeah!) Move 16" and reavers as well. 

What I also learned two days ago is that you can ally order units so you can use the hurricanum (without wizard 300 points) in a tempest eye list. With this your irondrakes will have -2 (-3 for the champion) rend on a 2+ 2+. For Order lists I would skip on the battalion and use the points somewhere else, yeah it is nice but you lose alot of points on msu, unforged and the battalion itself.

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1 hour ago, Kramer said:

They arent the worst. Nor are Quarrelers in bigger units. But that's kind of where for most it falls down a bit. Because the sheer amount of shots from the big unit bonus for Quarrellers makes them better than the thunderers. Although Thunderers outperform in small units so for the battalion.

Also if you only include the warriors to screen... the Quarrellers have a 5+ re-rollable as well. So maybe worth the 3x30pts. And you get some shots off.  

Makes sense! If maxing out I'll go for Quarrelers then to go for weight of dice.  Currently it's longbeards I have in the list as the battleline so can't change really.

1 hour ago, AlmGandix3 said:

If you don't mind using elves and humans in your tempest eye list I got 2 that I will definitely try out. One is completely disgusting if it goes off and the other one will let you keep your ironjawz friends.

One of the best things of tempest eye is, that in turn one your Skywardens(now 100 points again yeah!) Move 16" and reavers as well. 

What I also learned two days ago is that you can ally order units so you can use the hurricanum (without wizard 300 points) in a tempest eye list. With this your irondrakes will have -2 (-3 for the champion) rend on a 2+ 2+. For Order lists I would skip on the battalion and use the points somewhere else, yeah it is nice but you lose alot of points on msu, unforged and the battalion itself.

I like the battalion though as it basically gives a better version of the Dwarf allegiance, a single drop for all of those units, CP and artefact. The battleshock seems like a great boon so trying to build around it. Definitely considered the hurricanum too as it can be modelled as a giant anvil and just adds candy to the buff train! I've considered the SKY warden on Griffin too, as it adds a lot of quality attacks and the 6" pile in really lets him cover the battleline.

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8 minutes ago, Charlo said:

Makes sense! If maxing out I'll go for Quarrelers then to go for weight of dice.  Currently it's longbeards I have in the list as the battleline so can't change really.

I like the battalion though as it basically gives a better version of the Dwarf allegiance, a single drop for all of those units, CP and artefact. The battleshock seems like a great boon so trying to build around it. Definitely considered the hurricanum too as it can be modelled as a giant anvil and just adds candy to the buff train! I've considered the SKY warden on Griffin too, as it adds a lot of quality attacks and the 6" pile in really lets him cover the battleline.

Yeah the griffin is quite nice behind a screen, I just noticed they are called the same as the Skywardens of KO which I was referring to, quite misleading 😅

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4 hours ago, Charlo said:

Thunderers don't seem to be the worst? 3+/3+/-1/1 is fairly decent for reaching out and hurting stuff, plus they have shields if need be. Even if playing pure dispossessed you need 30 Warriors, Longbeards, Thunderers if Quarrelers for Battleline so the extra ten are easy to stomach. The only real tax is the unforged, but even he could have a use I bet and is now only 80pts. Extra artefact, command point and lower drops is great too.

This is my point : These units are not anymore the only battlelines.

If you absolutely needed to have warriors, longbeards or quarrelers, yes, the battalion would be useful. As it is however, it forces us to play with these sub-par units.

Right now both Ironbreakers and Hammerers are battleline, and these units are immensely more useful defensively and offensively (respectively) than the others, for a very reasonnable point increase.

This is why, for me, the Grudgebound battalion is bad.

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Of course right when I finish building 40 dwarf warriors they go up 🙄. Another grudge for the books. 

So what are you guys running as screens now? MSU warriors? Longbeards? Ironbreakers?

Really odd that we didn't get Ironweld re-merged after all the strange hinting. Hopefully that means they're working on the book.

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2 hours ago, Alaric83 said:

This is my point : These units are not anymore the only battlelines.

If you absolutely needed to have warriors, longbeards or quarrelers, yes, the battalion would be useful. As it is however, it forces us to play with these sub-par units.

Right now both Ironbreakers and Hammerers are battleline, and these units are immensely more useful defensively and offensively (respectively) than the others, for a very reasonnable point increase.

This is why, for me, the Grudgebound battalion is bad.

That's great and I get you - but my question is how to make the War Throng work, not what can I take instead for maximum efficiency?

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9 hours ago, Alaric83 said:

This is my point : These units are not anymore the only battlelines.

If you absolutely needed to have warriors, longbeards or quarrelers, yes, the battalion would be useful. As it is however, it forces us to play with these sub-par units.

Right now both Ironbreakers and Hammerers are battleline, and these units are immensely more useful defensively and offensively (respectively) than the others, for a very reasonnable point increase.

This is why, for me, the Grudgebound battalion is bad.

100% agree

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I had a great game last night against a dear friend who ran a Khorne mortals list. 1250 point game, battle for the pass. (So sorry i have no photos). My list using new points:

Runelord (pickaxe)   80

Runelord    80

10x longbeards    100

30x ironbreakers   360

20 irondrakes    360

Ally: steamtank  240 (he agreed to let the 40 points over ally limit count).

 

I took first turn, and charged up the board. Capped both central objectives with longbeards on left flank and ironbreakers on right. Irondrakes did some quick and furious tunnelling with a runelord.

Steamtank lined up its sight... and pow! 30inch steam cannon into his slaughterpriest. D6 hit. 6 dmg. Bye bye priest. 

Turn2, he charges into me with a few odds and ends, i was terrified. But i held firm with only 6 casualties across the board. Try as he might, the dwarves will not be moved.

 

The irondrakes pop up behind my main line because he wisely spread a unit of reavers across his deep area to stop the pesky dawi. The leader said aim. Devistating. 

 

We called the game start of round 3, 10 points to 2. He wasnt going to shift me and I was about to unload with anothet 40 shots from irondrakes. 

 

People who say we are rubbish, bottom tier, useless. Im very confused. Not top tier, but no where near useless. 

MVP was tied between steamtank and ironbreakers. Steamtank... my love and joy. And my favourite comment of the night "those damn ironbreakers JUST DONT DIE". 

 

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Glad you made it hard for Khorne !

Personnaly, I wouldn't say we're bottom-tier. We have flaws and we lack abilities, battletome and so on.

BUT we are efficient. Strongly efficient. Want something down ? Bring Irondrakes and drop them dead.

Lot of heresy... Pardon me, Magic ? Runelord and Runic Icon will do the job.

Need to hold the line ? Oh boy... Don't worry @Breaks-the-iron Mont, I ear this A LOT about my Ironbreakers.

So yes, sometimes we can't win, but at least we can make it REALLY hard for our ennemies.

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15 hours ago, Kramer said:

Looks solid. The only doubt I would still have is the pick axe. Get in turn 2, Remove, ge back in turn 3 (no movement) where your dependent on a 9" charge. Turn 4 regain full control. 

I think I might look into the malign portents artefacts for something to protect/buff up the Unforged. But I might be too pessimistic here. I would play it 2/3 times just to see how it works in practice.  

Rearguard Gyrocopter seems good. The order of arrival is dependent on the scenario. So if it arrives last, great you can get it in there fast. If it's first you will most likely claim an early objective. Hmm now that I wrote that down, i'm not sure if the extra survivability of the bomber isn't better. 12" should be enough to claim it on a small table. BUT the Gyroopter with the Brimstone Gun has a better chance to get you some Victory points for kills. 

Hmm go with which you think is coolest I guess  ;) 

Do you know if there is a scenario where the main body arrives first?

Yeah it's certainly a risky strategy with the pickaxe. I haven't seen any of the scenarios yet so I'm not sure if they change up the order that the waves arrive (I don't think so, I think it's only WHERE they show up) but if they are anything like the matched play battle plans then I suspect objectives will be important so having a good part of the main body so being able to pickaxe somewhere may be a necessity. Only moving from the board edge from turn 2 onwards with the main body really hurts our little 4" legs otherwise.

I was thinking about the same thing with the Gyrobomber, same points for an extra wound and drop bombs potentially every turn. Could be a good way to harm enemy heroes maybe for the D3 mortal wounds, and the clatter gun still gets to shoot.

10 hours ago, Verminlord said:

Of course right when I finish building 40 dwarf warriors they go up 🙄. Another grudge for the books. 

So what are you guys running as screens now? MSU warriors? Longbeards? Ironbreakers?

I've thought about warriors since the points leaks and even though they went up in points I still think they are viable choice when you are trying to cram in as many bodies as possible. Remember warrior units over 20 models reroll ALL failed wound rolls in your opponents combat phase. If you are running a block of 40 that can be quite powerful. I ran a unit of 20 once and they managed to suck up a mawcrusha charge, if they were a unit of 40 at the time they would have had some nasty bite back against that mawcrusha.

I still think warriors make good screens and that seems to be what their abilities suggest anyway, and particularly against poorer quality enemy battlelines they can actually have a little punch. They aren't Ironbreakers but neither is their cost. Particularly when building lists for smaller games those 10-20pts saved on using warriors over say longbeards can be the difference between the list being on or under the points limit or going over.

15 hours ago, Kramer said:

They arent the worst. Nor are Quarrelers in bigger units. But that's kind of where for most it falls down a bit. Because the sheer amount of shots from the big unit bonus for Quarrellers makes them better than the thunderers. Although Thunderers outperform in small units so for the battalion.

I think the big plus for the Thunderers is their built in -1 rend 3+ wound. That on it's own can make punching through basic infantry easy or remove their save completely vs the quarrellers. Combined with forgefire and the warden king it's -2 rend and 2+ wound. Doing that with a 20 man unit that gets +1 to hit for 240pts seems pretty good. I also find alot of the time because of their built in -1 rend I don't always need to bless them with the Runelord and can bless somewhere else instead to spread the rend around the army more. That to me makes the Thunderers a lot more practical and tactical in an actual game rather than just straight comparing the numbers, the target and their save is really important.

People tote the 4+ 4+ melee of the quarrellers making them better but if they get in combat they're usually going to die soon anyway, so 4+ 4+ vs 4+ 5+ on Thunderers doesn't really matter much. 5+ rerollable save on both units is amazing though.

Edited by Zadolix
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48 minutes ago, Zadolix said:

Yeah it's certainly a risky strategy with the pickaxe. I haven't seen any of the scenarios yet so I'm not sure if they change up the order that the waves arrive (I don't think so, I think it's only WHERE they show up) but if they are anything like the matched play battle plans then I suspect objectives will be important so having a good part of the main body so being able to pickaxe somewhere may be a necessity. Only moving from the board edge from turn 2 onwards with the main body really hurts our little 4" legs otherwise.

I was thinking about the same thing with the Gyrobomber, same points for an extra wound and drop bombs potentially every turn. Could be a good way to harm enemy heroes maybe for the D3 mortal wounds, and the clatter gun still gets to shoot.

Yeah they do switch it up. Watching miniwargaming showed at least reverse order, and one player vanguard first while the other is rearguard first. 

Yeah you’re right it’s so dependent on the scenarios that the pick axe might be worth it. Probably best to try both and see. 

Yeah that’s true on the bomber. If it works out well I might by one because that old metal copter I have now is a breaking disaster. 😂

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So with the dispossessed in the GHB, they’re ‘safe’ for another year.  But they obviously still somewhat lacking as a faction.  What would we like to see?

I’m somewhat of an amateur rules designer myself, with a fondness for the bearded ones (played them back in the days of 6th ed) so I’d love to write up some house rules to explore these possibilities.

For example, we have so many battleline units now (ironbreakers, longbeards and hammerers) that completely outclass regular warriors.  Is that ok or do warriors need tweaking?   

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15 minutes ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

So with the dispossessed in the GHB, they’re ‘safe’ for another year.  But they obviously still somewhat lacking as a faction.  What would we like to see?

I’m somewhat of an amateur rules designer myself, with a fondness for the bearded ones (played them back in the days of 6th ed) so I’d love to write up some house rules to explore these possibilities.

For example, we have so many battleline units now (ironbreakers, longbeards and hammerers) that completely outclass regular warriors.  Is that ok or do warriors need tweaking?   

Honestly with the 10 point difference between Warriors and Longbeards I've considered moving to Longbeards even though they don't sport a runic icon

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1 hour ago, Bladedwind said:

Honestly with the 10 point difference between Warriors and Longbeards I've considered moving to Longbeards even though they don't sport a runic icon

I know right?  Longbeards just outclass warriors in every way.  Better save, grumbling...warriors can’t compete with that.

Warriors could go back to their old cost...it’s better than a points increase for longbeards...or, maybe longbeards could have battleline removed from them but with the added benefit of having all 3 of their grumblings be simultaneous & automatic.  So that they become a pure support unit, which imo makes sense for them (a hardened core of veterans holding the line together).

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1 hour ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

So with the dispossessed in the GHB, they’re ‘safe’ for another year.  But they obviously still somewhat lacking as a faction.  What would we like to see?

I’m somewhat of an amateur rules designer myself, with a fondness for the bearded ones (played them back in the days of 6th ed) so I’d love to write up some house rules to explore these possibilities.

For example, we have so many battleline units now (ironbreakers, longbeards and hammerers) that completely outclass regular warriors.  Is that ok or do warriors need tweaking?   

As I understand it, GW starts models first. Rules and fluff follow. So if I was GW i’d go hard on the underground/slow and steady theme. 

Drop everything without gromgril armour (runelord being the exception). Get the model designers to riff on that theme to see where they end up. (Probably rune and underground fighting as main themes for the new models) 

So when I stick with that. I would love to see allegiance abilities which would focus on that. So definitely no abilities that make us faster but slow down enemies. So I envision long terrain features that represent controlled cave ins. Maybe triggered through a runesmith/engineer support character. Either by setting it up after deployment. Or maybe just placing placeholders and detonating them during play. 

Further more the runic thing is a bit done already with fyreslayers. So go hard on the grudges. Don’t know if re-rolls 1 is good enough with the command abilities. It’s armu wide of course so maybe. But definitely add a Loremaster with a book of grudges to change the grudge every turn as he reads out of the book. 

Lastly on the new models don’t go mining equipment GW. These should be the guys you send into the depths to fight in the dark. So dense armour. Devastating close range shooting. And can dish out in a fight. 

Lastly but don’t know how that would play out. The more % of your army lost the more stubborn/ grudgy/ fighty the my get. 

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Following at some point (or not ?) what you just said @Kramer, while browsing and having some hard time finding sleep, I came across a really wild guess.

WHAT IF the last rumour engine was a Dispossessed one ?

Ok, I know, that doesn't seems so, but... Subterran ? Mechanical ? Some mining equipement ?

I saw that somewhere...

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-FR/Terrax-Pattern-Termite-Assault-Drill-2018

 

What if this was some Dispo mining-transport ? :D

Or should I get some sleep ?

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6 minutes ago, Dammaz said:

Following at some point (or not ?) what you just said @Kramer, while browsing and having some hard time finding sleep, I came across a really wild guess.

WHAT IF the last rumour engine was a Dispossessed one ?

Ok, I know, that doesn't seems so, but... Subterran ? Mechanical ? Some mining equipement ?

I saw that somewhere...

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-FR/Terrax-Pattern-Termite-Assault-Drill-2018

 

What if this was some Dispo mining-transport ? :D

Or should I get some sleep ?

Haha never sleep again! If it means these great ideas ;) 

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For those thinking about the battalion. Maybe giving the Unforged Anraheir's claws could be a nice use of the extra artefact. It gives +2 damage for 6+ to wound, `in combination with 'The Bigger They are' it's on every 5+. Against Chaos that would be 4 damage for every 5+ to wound. 

Just a random Car (not driving) thought.

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19 hours ago, Bladedwind said:

Honestly with the 10 point difference between Warriors and Longbeards I've considered moving to Longbeards even though they don't sport a runic icon

I forgot about that, that's not a bad point in the warriors favour. I think it still stands as well that if you just purely want a screen then warriors are still our cheapest option. That may/may not matter depending on how close to the point limit your list is.

16 hours ago, Kramer said:

For those thinking about the battalion. Maybe giving the Unforged Anraheir's claws could be a nice use of the extra artefact. It gives +2 damage for 6+ to wound, `in combination with 'The Bigger They are' it's on every 5+. Against Chaos that would be 4 damage for every 5+ to wound. 

Just a random Car (not driving) thought.

Now that he's 80pts I think he might be just about worth the cost of taking even outside of a battalion. I'm going to try some games with him and use him almost as a babysitter on the frontlines, using him to either pile in in my opponents combat phase. Most stuff that rips our screens apart are usually multi wound like cavalry or some form of monster anyway.

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Could 2 wounds for dwarves (and this abilities to Overlords too) be justified when most of them are on 25mm bases?

Oh, some other suggestions that’ve probably been suggested before; being back the anvil of doom, the throne of power and battle standards.  All suitably aosed up of course. 

Actually, Thanes in general should be brought back, complete with a command ability.  They’d make good Lieutenants for bigger games or even lead a force in smaller games.

 

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8 hours ago, Zadolix said:

Now that he's 80pts I think he might be just about worth the cost of taking even outside of a battalion. I'm going to try some games with him and use him almost as a babysitter on the frontlines, using him to either pile in in my opponents combat phase. Most stuff that rips our screens apart are usually multi wound like cavalry or some form of monster anyway

Personally I don’t think so outside of the battalion because I wouldn’t want to lose the pickaxe. Maybe if I take runesmiter + auric hearthguard as allies to deep strike. 

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