AoS 2 - Dispossessed Discussion

[stato]

I don’t get the need to put in the 3” rules? They already cut shooting strength by only targeting units within 3”, now they reduce the effectiveness of those units further. When were Dispossessed smashing up tables?

Edited June 27, 2018 by stato

[Marrdt]

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age_of_sigmar_firestorm_errata_en.pdf

Page 64 – Greywater Fastness, Organisation Add the following keyword to this list: Dispossessed


Gives us a few options to play around with I guess. Im not too happy with the changes either. Especially given that Ironweld artillery still seems to have the normal crew rules. Unless there is going to be a wave of Warscroll updates separate from the FAQ?

[Marrdt]

19 minutes ago, stato said:

I don’t get the need to put in the 3” rules? They already cut shooting strength by only targeting units within 3”, now they reduce the effectiveness of those units further. When were Dispossessed smashing up tables?

That was actually present before. The only thing that really changed about our shooters is that irondrakes can move now and quarrelers have a different wording (twice becomes +1 attack) which has little bearing in most cases. 

Its a shame about the Warden King and Longbeards though.

[Double Misfire]

24 minutes ago, Marrdt said:

That was actually present before. The only thing that really changed about our shooters is that irondrakes can move now and quarrelers have a different wording (twice becomes +1 attack) which has little bearing in most cases. 

?

The Irondrakes' being able to move and double shoot is huge, and means they're able to pickaxe in at full firing strength. Also the new wording means the unit champion gets to double shoot with his rend -2 D3 damage torpedo, which is a pretty nice boost. ?

[smucreo]

Yeah, overall I say bad nerf to the Longbeards and good buff to the irondrakes. Now that they can move I'm way more inclined to use them tbh. Longbeards are still fine imo, they are what warriors wished they were back when they costed 100 points. The +1 to save when compared to the warriors is pretty significant considering you get to reroll, so I'd argue they are still a great battleline filler unit and really well costed.

EDIT: Considering what their ability reads now, you could almost just say that Longbeards have a reroll to wound in combat aura now hahah which is still nice since it also affects them, meaning they can actually dish out some pain of their own. 

Edited June 27, 2018 by smucreo

[Brad Gamma]

9 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Yeah, overall I say bad nerf to the Longbeards and good buff to the irondrakes. Now that they can move I'm way more inclined to use them tbh. Longbeards are still fine imo, they are what warriors wished they were back when they costed 100 points. The +1 to save when compared to the warriors is pretty significant considering you get to reroll, so I'd argue they are still a great battleline filler unit and really well costed.

EDIT: Considering what their ability reads now, you could almost just say that Longbeards have a reroll to wound in combat aura now hahah which is still nice since it also affects them, meaning they can actually dish out some pain of their own. 

Yeah this matches my feelings. In my head I had planned for that particular grumbling to be removed entirely. The one that its replaced with, I struggle to think when I would actually use it, so pretty much the same thing. The 20 point drop is still the most significant thing for longbeards. A 75% save against 0 rend is still great. Just wish they could take a runic icon. Those spell defenses are awesome, and the FAQ confirmed that those defenses apply to endless spells too.

I am however in the process of building my second batch of longbeards! Trying to decide whether to make my existing unit 20 strong or to have 2 separate units (basically, whether to build a second command squad or not).

Irondrakes are a lot more tempting now! I hadn't really thought of how I would fit them in my army, but now I need to give them some serious thought. They don't quite fit the theme of my army as they are, so i'll have to think of how I would convert them. My favourite way to spend an afternoon, not actually doing anything, just browsing bits sites and thinking how to mod things ?

[smucreo]

It may be tough considering your theme, yes ? 

For dwarfs I'm also still on the fence on going for big units or msu; several units are very clear as they tell you: "hey, go big and you'll get a bonus", but on others I'd go for msu, especially when talking about ironbreakers or other screen units.

On longbeards though, since they are basically an aura carrying unit, I'd rather go for a 20 man squad. This means I'd go for 2x10 ironbreakers and 20 longbeards as battleline a lot of the time, but I say this without having tested much yet.

The only thing I'm sure about is the 20 irondrakes every time haha

Edited June 27, 2018 by smucreo

[Double Misfire]

20 minutes ago, Brad Gamma said:

Irondrakes are a lot more tempting now! I hadn't really thought of how I would fit them in my army, but now I need to give them some serious thought. They don't quite fit the theme of my army as they are, so i'll have to think of how I would convert them. My favourite way to spend an afternoon, not actually doing anything, just browsing bits sites and thinking how to mod things ?

Beehives shooting out swarms of bees, you know you want to.   (I love your army btw) ????

Edited June 27, 2018 by Double Misfire

[Brad Gamma]

1 minute ago, Double Misfire said:

Honeycombs firing swarms of bees, you know you want to. (I love your army btw) ????

Haha! Makes me think of bioshock.

Luckily I've got the longbeards, ironbreakers and an artillery detachment to do, gives me months to plan any irondrakes.

Your enthusiasm in the ironweld threads has meant I've already spent a month thinking about cannons! ?

 

[Furuzzolo]

Good lord, first the endless comet, now this.... Are they trying to push Dispossessed over Kharadron and Fireslayer? ?

Joking aside the Irondrakes Captain is now an antimonster, better then the "oneshot stormcast winged guy". 24" of d6 damage..... I dunno about this. Seems crazy. 

Are Dispossessed becoming competitive...?!?

[Double Misfire]

12 minutes ago, Brad Gamma said:

Haha! Makes me think of bioshock.

Luckily I've got the longbeards, ironbreakers and an artillery detachment to do, gives me months to plan any irondrakes.

Your enthusiasm in the ironweld threads has meant I've already spent a month thinking about cannons! ?

 

I've spent 20+ years thinking about cannons, it's all good.  Do you plan on doing anything special with your artillery hobby-wise, or just painting it as beautifully as the rest of your stuff?

As far as the theme of your army goes, have you checked out the Living City allegiance in Season of War: Firestorm in relation to recent changes? Sylvaneth Wildwoods being free to summon in non Sylvaneth armies again and the change to Irondrakes double shooting could mean a pretty formidable combo for green duardin if you didn't mind painting a couple of Treelord Ancients to summon them. Just think of what you could do with deployable cover for Ironbreakers to camp out in!  

5 minutes ago, Furuzzolo said:

Are Dispossessed becoming competitive...?!?

Just remember, you were all here before they got cool.  

[Furuzzolo]

2 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

Just remember, you were all here before they got cool

Sure that! 

So no changes on the Unforged and the battallion...that's a shame. I guess i shouldn't be greedy, tho, the new edition gave us a bunch of cool toys already. 

[Double Misfire]

Just now, Furuzzolo said:

Sure that! 

So no changes on the Unforged and the battallion...that's a shame. I guess i shouldn't be greedy, tho, the new edition gave us a bunch of cool toys already. 

Spoiler

Don't tell anyone, but the Unforged got a new base size ?

 

[Brad Gamma]

12 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

I've spent 20+ years thinking about cannons, it's all good.  Do you plan on doing anything special with your artillery hobby-wise, or just painting it as beautifully as the rest of your stuff?

As far as the theme of your army goes, have you checked out the Living City allegiance in Season of War: Firestorm in relation to recent changes? Sylvaneth Wildwoods being free to summon in non Sylvaneth armies again and the change to Irondrakes double shooting could mean a pretty formidable combo for green duardin if you didn't mind painting a couple of Treelord Ancients to summon them. Just think of what you could do with deployable cover for Ironbreakers to camp out in!  

Oh I've got plans! My artillery won't be too out-there but they will be a significant modification of the current kit. Will be a couple of months though. I do have an ordinator who is almost ready to paint, who will probably be completed first. Him and my cogsmith going out to battle with nothing to buff! ? 

I do wanna pick up firestorm, just for the little bits of material. I think firestorm sort of marked a turning point where aos became interesting to me. I think the sylvaneth would have harsh words for my dwarfs! They both care about the forest but their methods are very different. In the lore I have drafted out there is actually a sizeable community of wanderers (about 5% of the population) that live in the gharuki capital, and I may add them at some point.

But alas! Too many plans.

[Marrdt]

10 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

?

The Irondrakes' being able to move and double shoot is huge, and means they're able to pickaxe in at full firing strength. Also the new wording means the unit champion gets to double shoot with his rend -2 D3 damage torpedo, which is a pretty nice boost. ?

My intention was to say that the quarreller change is mainly in wording only, but I constructed that sentence badly. I wholeheartedly agree about the drakes being stronger now. I will elaborate on that a little bit though.

Interestingly, the pickaxe's new wording would have allowed the pickaxe + double-shooting anyway. As well as a line from this FAQ, top of page 3: 
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_base_sizes_en.pdf
 

Quote

Q: Some abilities allow you to remove a unit from the battlefield
and set it up again, and say that this ‘counts as their move for
the movement phase’ (or words to that effect). Do these units
count as having made a move for the purposes of any other rules
or abilities?
A: No, it simply restricts them from making a move later on.

Sorry If im nitpicking, I just wanted to be clear that we would have been able to do the pickaxe teleport anyway, without this change to the Irondrakes.

With the current state, to explore another avenue of thought, I would say that thunderers still are the best ranged unit we have for cost and reliablity, They outshoot quarrelers and also have a less steep drop off below their respective breakpoint of models or being in combat.

That is to say, they only suffer a -1 to hit penalty for losing models or being in combat -which everyone will aim to do even more in the new edition -, instead of outright losing 50% of their damage output. Quarrelers only outperform thunderers vs low saves or saves which cant be rended.  Yes, it's possible to avoid melee with good placement, but sometimes its good to have a unit which doesn't lose half of their damage output for holding the line somewhere, which I argue that shielded units are decent for and is one of the great reasons why Dispossessed is such a reliable faction. Consistent performance and holding the damn line, not giving an inch. 

A unit with more wounds with less cost will always perform more consistently, though obviously you will have less insane board sweeping turns. Given the status of Dispossessed runic lore at this point in time, we can't properly defend expensive units with the heavy magic/summoning meta looming on the doorstep. Our unbinding is very limited in number and while powerful with the +2, needs to be used on the right spells. Ironbreakers might be cheap enough now so they are truly worth exploring, but I think that a mass of cheaper units is still the way to go with mortal wounds almost being more common that normal wounds at this point (Perhaps its just my local meta). 

Irondrakes obviously do better than thunderers per model from ranged, but they used to cost too much. Perhaps the reduction and rule change is enough, but in the end, I currently believe you just lose too much per model and the better armor wont matter with all the endless spells that are going to be thrown around . I don't think my ranged army composition will differ much with these changes  unless they rework the ironweld crew rules.

But with all that said, I agree that Irondrakes are a lot better now. Im just not conviced they are good enough.

Do you think there will be a wave of updates to bring all the scrolls up to a newer standard? 
 

9 hours ago, Furuzzolo said:

Good lord, first the endless comet, now this.... Are they trying to push Dispossessed over Kharadron and Fireslayer? ?

Joking aside the Irondrakes Captain is now an antimonster, better then the "oneshot stormcast winged guy". 24" of d6 damage..... I dunno about this. Seems crazy. 

Are Dispossessed becoming competitive...?!?

Are we sure that the endless comet can be used outside the stormcast allegiance? They were pretty clear in the FAQ that spell/priest lores are limited to their original factions, are we sure that this does not extend to faction specific endless spells? I also would like to think that as long as a Stormcast Wizard is casting it, you can take it in any army, but I wouldnt be surprised if its limited to stormcast allegiance.


P.S I dont intend to sound pessimistic. My main point is that I don't think there will be a massive change in the way Dispossessed plays at this point in time. And that is not a bad thing either. There is a lot of hidden potential in Dispossessed and I have been doing very well with them so far. 
 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Marrdt

[stato]

10 hours ago, Marrdt said:

That was actually present before. 

Oops, yeah sorry, thought it was just a 'not move' caveat previously.

Interesting our shooters can now move and double shoot, will make Dispossessed a lot quicker on the table. I do like re-roll saves from 'Shield-wall' but with warriors when your against something with rend, I find it better to get the guaranteed 4" run and take table space, or get in charges of my own.

[stato]

2 minutes ago, Marrdt said:

... Quarrelers only outperform thunderers vs low saves or saves which cant be rended.  Yes, it's possible to avoid melee with good placement, but sometimes its good to have a unit which doesn't lose half of their damage output for holding the line somewhere, which I argue that shielded units are decent for and is one of the great reasons why Dispossessed is such a reliable faction. Consistent performance and holding the damn line, not giving an inch. 
 

I dont know about you but im expecting to face a LOT of nighthaunt for the 2nd half of this year.  In my club, rend will almost become pointless.

[Marrdt]

Agreed Stato. Its just another example of how dispossessed offers reliablility vs massive but unreliable potential.

Its one of the reasons Tempest Eye is such an alluring choice as well.
With any luck, you will only really have to run in the first turn to get in position and you get an extra save during that time when you are a bit more vulnerable.
 

[smucreo]

By the way, can we use Firestorm allegiance abilities or not? Because depending on who I ask they tell me I can and others tell me that no. And the allegiance ability would overwrite the Dispossessed allegiance or not? What about artifacts and traits, what list can you choose from?

Edited June 28, 2018 by smucreo

[Marrdt]

1 minute ago, stato said:

I dont know about you but im expecting to face a LOT of nighthaunt for the 2nd half of this year.  In my club, rend will almost become pointless.

Then Quarrelers would be my choice in that case. I would definately not take irondrakes in that scenario. You lose so many points so quickly if they get targeted. And they will get targeted. With mortal wounds all you can do is ensure you lose less per model.

[Marrdt]

1 minute ago, smucreo said:

By the way, can we use Firestorm allegiance abilities or not? Because depending on who I ask they tell me I can and others tell me that no.

If you follow the official rules, you can use them in matched play, but you must use Order allegiance alongside them. https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age_of_sigmar_firestorm_errata_en.pdf

You cant use them with disspossessed faction rules, if thats what you are asking.

[smucreo]

Just now, Marrdt said:

If you follow the official rules, you can use them in matched play, but you must use Order allegiance alongside them. https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age_of_sigmar_firestorm_errata_en.pdf

You cant use them with disspossessed faction rules, if thats what you are asking.

Ah ok thanks! That's still pretty nice, since order allegiance is not that bad for dwarfs.

[Furuzzolo]

28 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Ah ok thanks! That's still pretty nice, since order allegiance is not that bad for dwarfs.

You can deploy a war throng, use Order, firestorm and the battalion (to keep the reroll).

41 minutes ago, Marrdt said:

There is a lot of hidden potential in Dispossessed and I have been doing very well with them so far. 

Can you post your list/concept, please? I like your thinking ?

[smucreo]

43 minutes ago, Furuzzolo said:

You can deploy a war throng, use Order, firestorm and the battalion (to keep the reroll). 

Do you guys think this is a valid route to take? I can't really make it work in my head with all the things I have to take and all the things I want to take...

The closest thing I have right now is:

Battalion 160

Warden King 120

Runelord 100

Unforged 100 

2x 10 Longbeards 200

2x 20 Longbeards 400

2x 10 Ironbreakers 280

1x20 Irondrakes 360

Extras:

2 Gyros 160

1 Runelord 100

This puts me at 1980, but gives me rerolls to hit and the rest of the dispossessed things plus the Firestorm allegiance abilities for Tempest's Eye, which is nice for mobility across the board. Of course this list is unrefined but this is the closest I've come to something viable with the restrictions of the battalion.

Edited June 28, 2018 by smucreo

[Brad Gamma]

11 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

As far as the theme of your army goes, have you checked out the Living City allegiance in Season of War: Firestorm in relation to recent changes? Sylvaneth Wildwoods being free to summon in non Sylvaneth armies again and the change to Irondrakes double shooting could mean a pretty formidable combo

 

11 hours ago, Brad Gamma said:

I think the sylvaneth would have harsh words for my dwarfs! They both care about the forest but their methods are very different.

Why did you put this in my head! I've been staring at a spare wildwood base piece all morning! I've had a rethink and miiiiight fit something in. ?

 

2 hours ago, Marrdt said:

Its one of the reasons Tempest Eye is such an alluring choice as well.

This may be my go to allegiance however now, thanks for the suggestion! I hadn't seen that dispossessed and ironweld were added to the errata until I checked out the new one.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Brad Gamma