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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

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Had a 1 dayer yesterday with 14 people. I ran the list ive been running for a while now:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Bloodwrack Shrine (210)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117
 

game 1 was against gloomspite in battle for the pass. He had skragrott, a webspinner shaman, a fungoid, loonboss, loonboss on mangler, 10 boingrots, 60 stabbas, 3x6 squigs, sneaky snufflers, 10 loonsmasha fanatics, and geminids, moon, scuttletide. I gave him turn 1 in which he did a little shuffling but otherwise just hand of gorked his snufflers into my backfield and let out the fanatics that charged into my shrine and cauldron. Since he split the attacks, he only did a couple to each one and died in return. He got 5 points by putting a squig just within 6 of the 2 side objectives. In my turn I cleared out my backfield, buffed my 30 sisters of slaughter unit, and got a few extra models onto each side objective. He won the turn roll for turn 2 hit my 30 block with debuffs. He then charged his boingrots into my unit of 10 on one objective and his 60 grots into my 30 block. Even with minus 2 to hit from geminids and nets, I killed ~ 20 gits to his ~4 sisters. In my turn, the blood sisters got mind razor and witchbrew, and killed all of the squigs on the left objective, the sisters killed enough grots to outnumber on the right objective, and my harpies stole his home objective. Unfortunately we ran out of time at this point. My opponent commented he is used to having way more time for games and not used to tournament time restrictions. He hand of gorked a shaman into my backfield at the last second to keep me from an auxiliary, which ended up really costing me.

Game 2 was against fangs of sotek seraphon on focal points. He had kroak, a slann, a star priest, skink priest, astrolith banner, 2x40 skinks, 5 saurus guard, 2 bastiladons, balewind. He deployed on the line with his skinks, who I thought were the biggest threats so committed into them turn 1. Morathi and 30 sisters were able to make charges turn 1 and were able to bring the skinks down to ~25 each. The return on his turn was brutal and he wiped out all of my sisters, but they and morathi were able to absorb all of his attention for this turn and I was able to keep him to 2 points. This whole game devolved into a case of me holding him off the objectives while he blew me off the board with magic and shooting. I won because I was able to hold him to 2 points for the first 2 turns while I consistently scored at least 5 until turn 5. I ended the game with a single snake, my cauldron on 10 wounds, morathi on 9, and 3 heartrenders. We both agreed that he wouldve tabled me earlier and probably been able to outscore me if I hadn't whittled down the skinks so much turn 1.

Game 3 was against Barack mhornar KO on blades edge. He had an ironclad, the celestant prime, 10/10/20 arkanauts, 12 riggers, some heroes, and the realmscape rupture. He redeployed to the end of my line I had set up and ran the realmscape rupture through much of my army. Then with shooting, and a long charge of 13 (because of the +2 from his ship artifact), he was able to kill off my cauldron and almost my shrine. Then in my turn, with all my movement halved, I had to settle on running up the board to grab a few objectives and hope for the best. Luckily I got priority for turn 2 and my snakes killed all of his ground troops in one combat. Honestly the game was over at this point, as he only had his ship left with the heroes and a small unit inside it. The prime was too late and the score was 10-3 in my favor after turn 2, so he was ready to call it there. 

So I won all three games, but came in second by a single auxiliary objective (curse you skragrott!). The guy who won also played daughters. He had a hag on shrine, medusa, a hag, morgwaeth, a unit of 30 sisters of slaughter, 2 units of 30 witches, 2 units of 5 heartrenders, and 2 units of shadow warriors. 

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Posted (edited)

Congrats on 2nd Graywater

1st and 2nd of DOK is good to hear. Its funny, as DOK are a great army still, people just are not running them atm.

I like the 1st place list, its something I have thought about as swarming with bodies seems a good idea in the current meta lol. 

Just wish we had a 2 unit can attact rule like LRL 

I kinda wanna try 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Bloodwrack Shrine (210)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Mo Blade Cover (140)
- Prayer - Catechism of murder 

30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
30 x Witch aelves (300)
- Blade Bucklers)
10 x Witch aelves (120)
- Blade Bucklers)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
10 x Shadow Warriors  (110)
10 x Shadow Warriors  (110)
Avatar of Khaine (140)
Cauldron Guard (120)


Total: 2000/ 2000

Edited by Chumphammer

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1 hour ago, Chumphammer said:

Congrats on 2nd Graywater

1st and 2nd of DOK is good to hear. Its funny, as DOK are a great army still, people just are not running them atm.

I like the 1st place list, its something I have thought about as swarming with bodies seems a good idea in the current meta lol. 

Just wish we had a 2 unit can attact rule like LRL 

I kinda wanna try 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Bloodwrack Shrine (210)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Mo Blade Cover (140)
- Prayer - Catechism of murder 

30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
30 x Witch aelves (300)
- Blade Bucklers)
10 x Witch aelves (120)
- Blade Bucklers)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
10 x Shadow Warriors  (110)
10 x Shadow Warriors  (110)
Avatar of Khaine (140)
Cauldron Guard (120)


Total: 2000/ 2000

Hordes are still super strong in this game, particularly when the models are as good as our basic elves are. I think his list is absolutely stronger than mine, but I've got morathi and snakes, so that's a win in my books. 

Whats the thinking with the foot avatar?

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1 hour ago, Graywater said:

Hordes are still super strong in this game, particularly when the models are as good as our basic elves are. I think his list is absolutely stronger than mine, but I've got morathi and snakes, so that's a win in my books. 

Whats the thinking with the foot avatar?

Just something fun really. It can be powered by Morgwaeth, gives some extra shooting attacks but mainly its  3+/5++ in general bubble. LD11 for Mindrazor if you need to take on something LD10 (Rend 3 with 4 Damage mindrazor vs Mortek guard for instance) 

It gets to be part of the cauldron guard batallion also as Hag Narr, so +1 to run and charge 

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7 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Just something fun really. It can be powered by Morgwaeth, gives some extra shooting attacks but mainly its  3+/5++ in general bubble. LD11 for Mindrazor if you need to take on something LD10 (Rend 3 with 4 Damage mindrazor vs Mortek guard for instance) 

It gets to be part of the cauldron guard batallion also as Hag Narr, so +1 to run and charge 

Oh that is an interesting way to get something over the LD10 barrier. He actually puts out a good amount of damage for 140 points if you can get over having to pray to activate him and only average speed. I think it does well in this style list, as he did a lot of castling on central objectives and waiting for his opponent to hit his lines. The avatar's speed isn't a hindrance in this case.

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14 minutes ago, Graywater said:

Oh that is an interesting way to get something over the LD10 barrier. He actually puts out a good amount of damage for 140 points if you can get over having to pray to activate him and only average speed. I think it does well in this style list, as he did a lot of castling on central objectives and waiting for his opponent to hit his lines. The avatar's speed isn't a hindrance in this case.

Well i mean, its movement 9 with +1 to run and charge and gets the rerolls is slow lol. Sure turn 1 and 2 it may not move, but I suppose if I take sacrament of blood I have 2 attempts to move it turn 2

Cause always get the iron circlet Cauldon to move it turn 1

 

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4 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Well i mean, its movement 9 with +1 to run and charge and gets the rerolls is slow lol. Sure turn 1 and 2 it may not move, but I suppose if I take sacrament of blood I have 2 attempts to move it turn 2

Cause always get the iron circlet Cauldon to move it turn 1

 

You know, I was sure it was movement 6. Shows how much I've looked at its rules.

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Are Sisters of Slaughter with the Blade Bucklers always the go to?

Already have two units of WE one with Blade Bucklers, other with Sacrificial Knives, but hoping to add some extra oomph with some SOS (starting with 10 with ultimate goal having at least enough for a full unit).

Thanks for the help

 

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7 hours ago, kbob said:

Are Sisters of Slaughter with the Blade Bucklers always the go to?

Already have two units of WE one with Blade Bucklers, other with Sacrificial Knives, but hoping to add some extra oomph with some SOS (starting with 10 with ultimate goal having at least enough for a full unit).

Thanks for the help

 

They aren't always the go to, but id say it is more typical to run them with Shields than the knife. It relies on the rest of your army. Anthony Lawrence placed highly at LVO last year with a 30 block of sisters with knives. Typically you'll see witches as your main damage dealers and sisters of slaughter as your utility. This is because the abilities of witches are all about extra attacks, while the sisters are more tricky with their 6 inch pile in.  Also, our strongest subfaction is hag nar, which makes us more survivable, so investing in defense just compounds your strength. Because of this, you'll often see witches with dual knives and sisters with Shields.

 At an event I went to last weekend, the guy who finished first ran one unit of 30 witches with Shields, one 30 of witches with dual knives, and one 30 of sisters of slaughter with Shields. He went with Shields on the sisters because they were his maneuverable objective grabbers, while the witches were the offensive threat. The Shields were better because they helped the sisters survive, which is all they needed to do in order to outnumber on objectives.

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Can you use the Khailebron Command Trait to teleport a Bloodwrack Medusa on Balewind Vortex around without dispelling the Vortex?

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On 10/11/2020 at 11:10 AM, InSaint said:

Can you use the Khailebron Command Trait to teleport a Bloodwrack Medusa on Balewind Vortex around without dispelling the Vortex?

As far as I've seen, this specific example has not been addressed. The only situation like this that has been answered is in the skavem FAQ, in which it says that a skaven model that skitterleaps on a balewind, the balewind travels with the model. The wording on skitterleap is very similar to the khailebron command ability, so I think there is an argument to be made that it works, but nothing explicitly allows it.

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Guys, what transportation options do you use for your shrines/cauldrons? They are so tall, I’m thinking of keeping the avatar magnetized. The problem is that the Avatar is also very top heavy, and was prone to falling off even with 2 rare earth magnets on his feet. In a perfect world I would just glue him on, but then the whole shebang becomes unwieldy to transport!

I want to see what you do!

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What magnets did you use? Rare Earth Magnets have different N numbers so its not just size but the N number that can define its power. It might be a higher power could help out. 

Mine are woefully still under construction; but I'd planned to magnetise the warrior and then transport them in a foam case - mostly because they are so tall that putting them on a magnetic tray with the rest would push the height of one layer up a lot for just one model. 

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2 hours ago, Overread said:

What magnets did you use? Rare Earth Magnets have different N numbers so its not just size but the N number that can define its power. It might be a higher power could help out. 

Mine are woefully still under construction; but I'd planned to magnetise the warrior and then transport them in a foam case - mostly because they are so tall that putting them on a magnetic tray with the rest would push the height of one layer up a lot for just one model. 

Im using primal horizon, which dont provide an N rating but appear to be commonly used for miniatures.

I’m wary of foam from experiences of dark eldar bits getting caught in the past, lol.When u say warrior are you referencing witches?

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I have battlefoam magnetic racks that slide in and out. My medusa and the mirror I use pins to store them (because they won't fit on the shelf otherwise). I also like the pins because of the top-heavy ness like you mention. My avatar is converted, but I use the actual avatar model for my display board and he is pinned there too.

20200818_235226.jpg

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2 hours ago, Graywater said:

I have battlefoam magnetic racks that slide in and out. My medusa and the mirror I use pins to store them (because they won't fit on the shelf otherwise). I also like the pins because of the top-heavy ness like you mention. My avatar is converted, but I use the actual avatar model for my display board and he is pinned there too.

How do you transport the pinned models? They wont stand right, and if you lie them sideways theyll just roll around and destroy everything?

I have the same battlefoam magnaracks you have, so good to see it can work here.

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I have spare bases that are magnetized with the same size holes drilled into them. The models are put on those drilled bases that are magnetized to the tray.

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I find it hard to leave home without bring a SQ on cauldron as general, that Hero phase activate is a game changer. Curious why people are leaving her out of most lists it seems? Just to have that Hag queen on Cauldron with some extra wounds? 

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11 hours ago, Ser_namron said:

I find it hard to leave home without bring a SQ on cauldron as general, that Hero phase activate is a game changer. Curious why people are leaving her out of most lists it seems? Just to have that Hag queen on Cauldron with some extra wounds? 

I think the biggest reason you'll see something besides a slaughter queen as general is when it is a medusa/bloodwrack shrine to unlock snakes as battleline. My medusa is always my general for this reason. 

Another reason I can see this being the case is the importance of witchbrew. This is one of our most important, if not the most important buffs we have, but its on small, easy to kill heroes. They can be reliably kept alive by putting them on cauldrons. However, running multiple cauldrons can become a case of too many buffers, not enough meat situation very quickly. When the question is asked what is more important, between extra survivability all the time with witchbrew versus the situational extra output from the slaughter queen, its not clear that the slaughter queen is clearly better. I think it comes down to your list, personal playstyle, and the meta you play in. 

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11 hours ago, Graywater said:

its not clear that the slaughter queen is clearly better. I think it comes down to your list, personal playstyle, and the meta you play in. 

For sure, like all things in this game the variables change person to person. I just look back at the games ive played with DoK and the SQ hero phase activate is literally whats won me games so many times, verus my hags which usually survive because their bubblewrapped pretty heavily by bodies. I really like the new Morgwaeth kit, havent got to try it out but its a nice middle ground between a hag on cauldron and a hag on foot. Definetely going to find room in my list to test it out. 

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54 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

For sure, like all things in this game the variables change person to person. I just look back at the games ive played with DoK and the SQ hero phase activate is literally whats won me games so many times, verus my hags which usually survive because their bubblewrapped pretty heavily by bodies. I really like the new Morgwaeth kit, havent got to try it out but its a nice middle ground between a hag on cauldron and a hag on foot. Definetely going to find room in my list to test it out. 

There have definitely been times that I wouldve killed for a hero phase activation. Looking at last year with the prevalence of hard hitting melee armies (slaanesh, fyreslayers, petrifex OBR, FEC), I think the slaughter queen was a great choice. The hero phase activation gave you twice the offensive output if timed correctly and got around combat phase rules like petrifex shieldwall and the slaanesh locus. It also allowed you to power through armies like LoN and gloomspite that were trying to flood the board in bodies and wounds.

However, looking at this year, we have a drastic shift to ranged threats (KO, tzeentch, seraphon, lumineth). What I've found is I dont need the hero phase activation to kill most of what I've run up against- if I reach the arkanauts/skinks/horrors, they're dead or neutered in the first attack. More importantly though, is these armies can project their power from outside of our threat range, with the capability of removing key units/models easily. Because the queen is your general, she is very much an "all eggs in one basket"; Between being your command ability user, one of your priests, and hagg nar 5+ fanatical faith generator shes clearly a primary target. Further, your foot hags aren't safe either. Low wound foot heroes are just dead to a lot of what is being played currently. So if you want witchbrew, you need to have something more than a foot hag. Morgwaeth is a good call, but you can only have one of her, and you often want more than one source. 

I'm definitely not saying a queen is bad. Im saying that she may be a luxury we both don't need and can't afford in the current global meta. But if your local group is still playing aggressive melee armies, a slaughter queen is quite good still.

Edited by Graywater

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10 minutes ago, Graywater said:

I'm definitely not saying a queen is bad. Im saying that she may be a luxury we both don't need and can't afford in the current global meta. But if your local group is still playing aggressive melee armies, a slaughter queen is quite good still.

You make a really good point with last year vs this year. My playgroup keeps telling me shooting is the new meta, but i play KO in our group, and noone else is really running shooting heavy lists, so i guess my view might be skewed due to that. And i hear you with the not really needing that hero phase since most ranged units die in CC pretty easily. Definitely given me something to think about. 

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17 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

You make a really good point with last year vs this year. My playgroup keeps telling me shooting is the new meta, but i play KO in our group, and noone else is really running shooting heavy lists, so i guess my view might be skewed due to that. And i hear you with the not really needing that hero phase since most ranged units die in CC pretty easily. Definitely given me something to think about. 

Certainly local groups can develop independently of what's happening globally. My group is OBR, slaanesh, ogors, and fyreslayers, while in the last event I went to I played magic heavy gloomspite,fangs of sotek kroaknado seraphon, and  mhornar KO. Totally different. 

Edited by Graywater

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On 10/15/2020 at 12:38 AM, Graywater said:

However, looking at this year, we have a drastic shift to ranged threats (KO, tzeentch, seraphon, lumineth). What I've found is I dont need the hero phase activation to kill most of what I've run up against- if I reach the arkanauts/skinks/horrors, they're dead or neutered in the first attack. More importantly though, is these armies can project their power from outside of our threat range, with the capability of removing key units/models easily.

Yes, in my recent local tournament more than half of participants were shooting focus, the shift in meta is crazy.

Out of 12 participants, there were 2 KoT (Flamer spam), 2 Seraphons (Salamander spam),  2 SCE (Ballista spam) and 1 LRL (40 Archers). Khailebron seems to work better than Hag Narr with the -1 hit penalty. For reference, KoT flamers can wipe 30 Hag Narr witches with re-rollable 5+ FNP on 1 turn.

Surprisingly, Khinerai Lifetakers are an effective counter to the current shooting meta. For 80pts, they are a great distraction and their mobility allows them to quickly respond to any shooting threats. It's funny to see 20 archers having to shoot 1 surviving Khinerai because they are tied down in combat.

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These new khainite shadowstalkers are a mixed bag I think. I love the variations with the witch aelf and Sister of Slaghter, as well as several of the male sculpts! I’m not so keen on the frowning dude with the wobbley cloak thing, or the faceless boss lady. Might pick them up, but will plan to swap her head out if I do...

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