AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Tarryk]

8 minutes ago, Lucentia said:

I don't know how handy you are with magnets and pins and such but it's easy enough to construct the shrines so that the statue/mirrors and medusa/queens are removeable and swap-able, then you wouldn't have to choose!

But if that doesn't appeal I would say 1 Bloodwrack Shrine isn't a bad choice, it's the most durable wizard available if you don't have Morathi, and can unlock the formidable Blood Sisters as battleline units.  If you're playing matched play at lower points levels (up to ~1500pts or so) the Shrine is not a handy thing to have available.

You probably don't need two Shrines though, for the most part, which leaves a choice between the two Cauldron options, they're both kinda similar but do bring some different options to the table.  The Slaughter Queen is better in combat if you need it to get stuck in, comes with a free unbind which can be handy if you're low on wizards and an excellent, if situational command ability.  Meanwhile the Hag Queen loses all of that but comes with a more durable source of the very powerful Witchbrew and a lower price tag.  Personally I favour the Slaughter Queen version and keep my Hag Queens on foot (cos you're still gonna need that Witchbrew).  But at sub 2000 point games (if playing with points) then a Hag Cauldron does sometimes sneak into my lists.  Notably if you are using a Bloodwrack Shrine as your general in order to access Melusai Battleline then the Slaughter Cauldron loses some of its luster as you can't use its command ability anymore, in which case the Hag Cauldron might be preferable.

That's how I see it.

That's a lot of great information, thank you!

I was leaning towards the bloodwrack purely for the tougher wizard and to play around with temple nest.

I may just leave the other unbuilt for the time being and use the extra hags and slaughter queens on foot as I haven't pinned anything or used magnets before.

Another quick question but I don't see many lists running with an avatar. Is that due to it relying on the hag too much or is there another reason?

Appreciate you taking the time to answer my noob questions

 

[Overread]

Magnets are not too tough to use, but sometimes its easier to magnetize some models if you've already put one together to see how all the parts connect. That said the way the Cauldron goes together its one where you don't "need" to have built one to see where to put the magnets. 

That said magnetizing at least the cauldrons can be a benefit even if you just magnetize the Avatar as otherwise it ends up being a very tall model. 

[Lucentia]

20 minutes ago, Tarryk said:

Another quick question but I don't see many lists running with an avatar. Is that due to it relying on the hag too much or is there another reason?

Appreciate you taking the time to answer my noob questions

 

Wrangling the maximum points efficiency out of a DoK list can be a little tricky, there are a lot of great options, so squeezing in an Avatar can be a tough sell.  Both cauldron variants come with an Avatar built into them, and one which has more wounds (and that your army is more likely to be within range of for the bravery bonus).  The infantry avatar is a little expensive and a little bit fragile, it's not too tough to get it activated cos you can pray for it multiple times from different queens, but doing so opens up your fragile support heroes from taking extra damage from a misfired prayer.

Like most of the 'sub-par' units in the DoK book they're not, like, tragically bad or anything, there's just normally better options.

[Tarryk]

Great! Thank you both for the information. 

I think I'll look into seeing if there's any videos or articles on magnetising before I build the shrine, even just for transportation purposes. Probably a good skill to pick up early on  anyway.

[Overread]

On 7/19/2018 at 7:29 PM, Scythian said:

Honestly, most of my opponents have been happy to play against my snakes rather than the usual 90 to 120 witch elves that a lot of DoK players are using.

What's kind of crazy is for a snake army that is basically comprised of "elite" unit choices its actually considerably cheaper to build than a full witch army for a similar cost in points!

60 Snakes price £360 1440points

120 Witch aelves price £420 1480points

Now granted you can save by buying from independents but its still a big difference in price! Kind of scary that Witches basic troop costs pretty much as much as some full varied armies at that scale! 

[Scythian]

2 hours ago, Overread said:

What's kind of crazy is for a snake army that is basically comprised of "elite" unit choices its actually considerably cheaper to build than a full witch army for a similar cost in points!

60 Snakes price £360 1440points

120 Witch aelves price £420 1480points

Now granted you can save by buying from independents but its still a big difference in price! Kind of scary that Witches basic troop costs pretty much as much as some full varied armies at that scale! 

Wow, did you pick a scab, lol. There are so many people who play DoK that have railed at the cost of witch elves, which are RIDICULOUSLY overpriced! Personally, I just love the snakes both in terms of fluff and model design. Witch elves are a nightmare to paint and are very fragile models to transport. I think that’s the reason that DoK players are limited in number. When your basic 2k list is a $1000.00 dollars, you price most average players out of the market. 

[Overread]

@Scythian have you tried assembling Khinerai? They take fiddly and fragile to a WHOLE NEW LEVEL. They look fantastic but the entire model is perched atop just their tail! And that tail is very thin. In contrast I've got a Bethany from PP Hordes who is also posed on her tail and she is all metal and the tail is about three times the thickness at least - she's far more stable and doesn't have that scary "wobble" to her

[Scythian]

Just now, Overread said:

@Scythian have you tried assembling Khinerai? They take fiddly and fragile to a WHOLE NEW LEVEL. They look fantastic but the entire model is perched atop just their tail! And that tail is very thin. In contrast I've got a Bethany from PP Hordes who is also posed on her tail and she is all metal and the tail is about three times the thickness at least - she's far more stable and doesn't have that scary "wobble" to her

Yes, I built 10 of them just to try for a goof. Lolol, I could breathe on them and they’d break. Horrible design! They did little for me, and I replaced them with a slaughter queen and a hag queen.  The army I have now will be my permanent army. 

[Overread]

I'm scared to use them but I love the model and the concept of the model - I even want to make an assassin Khinerai as I think putting a shadowblade assassin with a group of Lifetakers makes for a rather neat assassination group - with enough punch to hurt either a tough character or a unit of troops. 

[Scythian]

7 hours ago, Overread said:

I'm scared to use them but I love the model and the concept of the model - I even want to make an assassin Khinerai as I think putting a shadowblade assassin with a group of Lifetakers makes for a rather neat assassination group - with enough punch to hurt either a tough character or a unit of troops. 

I stopped using them because they broke the snake theme. They did very little for me, but maybe others find them more useful. 

[syph0n]

11 hours ago, Tarryk said:

Great! Thank you both for the information. 

I think I'll look into seeing if there's any videos or articles on magnetising before I build the shrine, even just for transportation purposes. Probably a good skill to pick up early on  anyway.

Great vid for magnetising. Will do this myself when the time comes. 

 

[Qaz]

Today, I learnt that the Cauldrons get lookout sir. Tell me that we were missing something somewhere, please?

[Emissary]

Nope, they aren't monsters so they do get it.

[Aaron Schmidt]

What do you bet this gets attention in the FAQ eventually? Skaven Plague Furnace/Screaming Bell is the another one like this. 

[InSaint]

What is an excellent DoK (or ally) unit for holding far off objectives? 

I currently just park 10 Witch Aleves on the objective. Cheap and high model count.

Blood Stalkers are too expensive and less model count though they can provide some some fire support. 

Khinera are cheaper but lacks the model count and are fragile. 

 

[Overread]

I'd only use Khinerai to hold a distant objective that the opponent hasn't secured in the latter part of the game. Whilst they can strike the board fast and hard they are very fragile and thus no good at holding onto anything; even their rules make them want to hit and run - dodge and weave into and out of cover etc....

A tough holding unit is something that, I think, Daughters don't have. Instead its built as a fast alphastrike faction with internal synergies to boost their attack phase, primarily in close combat. The toughest, by her wound mechanic, would be Morathi, though she's an expensive unit to field and has other uses on the battlefield. 

 

I think if you want what is essentially a tarpit unit you need to look outside of the faction into the allies for something tough and long lasting. Check/ask in the allies thread (linked in the first post of this thread)

Edited July 24, 2018 by Overread

[Jais]

9 hours ago, InSaint said:

What is an excellent DoK (or ally) unit for holding far off objectives? 

Since 2.0, aside from 3 places of Arcane Power, all objectives are tap-and-go. I think we're better off with leaving our far objectives "controlled" and empty while rushing forward to contest the opponents objectives  - so if we need to we can then always summon our Khinerai as screens to prevent movement or even summon them  on our  point to hold it for another round.  We're an offensive army and that's our win condition, really. I don't think we need* to draft 3 units of 10 liberators to "hold" a point when it's a tap-and-go game now.

[Aaron Schmidt]

Holding objectives? Not sure. Those SCE bolt throwers could provide great support for attacking units holding objectives however. 

[DJMoose]

4 minutes ago, Aaron Schmidt said:

Holding objectives? Not sure. Those SCE bolt throwers could provide great support for attacking units holding objectives however. 

Not exactly points efficient, but when I play 2000pts or more, I usually include a Temple Nest with two minimum sized units of Blood Stalkers.  I've had good success with them camping objectives, as their 24" range is sufficient most of the time.  Plus they are good for babysitting a Bloodwrack to give her Look Out Sir.

1 hour ago, Jais said:

Since 2.0, aside from 3 places of Arcane Power, all objectives are tap-and-go. I think we're better off with leaving our far objectives "controlled" and empty while rushing forward to contest the opponents objectives  - so if we need to we can then always summon our Khinerai as screens to prevent movement or even summon them  on our  point to hold it for another round.  We're an offensive army and that's our win condition, really. I don't think we need* to draft 3 units of 10 liberators to "hold" a point when it's a tap-and-go game now.

I agree with this.  Most of the time if I can murder the opponent's troops and keep him from claiming objectives that way, that plays to our strengths.  I've had good success teleporting a unit of Blood Sisters into my opponent's backline with the Mistress of Illusion command trait and then promptly either wiping out the enemy's troops holding the objective or killing enough of them so I have more within 6" to claim it for myself.

[Jais]

On 7/11/2018 at 6:39 AM, Overread said:

Thinking on Shadow Patrol Battalion and how to make it work. 

2 Units of Doomfire Warlocks

4 Units of Khinerai. 

So first up its actually quite free in how you can choose the khinerai as you're not bound to a specific type. This lets you vary them as you wish for the army. However even if you take just the base number of units and the battalion it all comes in at 770 points. That's expensive when one considers that many of those units want to be backed up. 5 Doomfire Warlocks in two groups isn't as good as 10 in one at least in terms of the damage output of Doomfire and in the survivability of the unit itself. 

The Khinerai are in a worse position as they are only one wound each and at 5 in a base group that's very fragile, plus  neither type is blessed with a larger number of attacks either so even if they get the first strike on a target they need to hit the right target to work. So thinking on how to use them so that the shadow patrol hits hard is going to be key. To my mind there's a few ways to use them, assuming that you deploy them off-table rather than on table.

1) Use them in the last few turns or even last turn of the game to swoop in and contest or even secure an objective point. Likely not worth it with more than one group. This gives the player a last chance to secure points in the last part of the game, where the survivability is a lesser issue. 

2) Deploy them in a group focusing on a single target or objective. This overcomes the fragility of the individual units by focusing them on a specific area en-mass. It also increases the chance of them clearing out the area or at least crippling a near-by threat. 

3) Add units to them to increase their potency. Adding units to each group puts a lot of points into the Shadow Patrol, taking it to 1410 points total. That said it does increase the performance of all the various components, but does meant that there's less points on the table for other things - remembering that at least 300 points is needed to get battle-line (minimum) troops on the table and then at least another 100 or so for a general.  Of course once might only put extra units into one or two of the shadow patrol - giving one or two units that hit heavier and the rest that act more for support. 

4) Put more points in to battle-line units and the rest of the army and use the shadow-patrol units to bolster those attacks. 

5) Use additional options to bolster performance. Eg putting a Shadowblade assassin with one of the khinerai units so that when it lands its got the additional wealth of attacks that the assassin offers. Spells and such are also good; eg attacking near a cauldron for the additional save help. 

 

 

To me this somewhat highlights the weakness of khinerai in terms of their damage output and survivability. They are very much a glass cannon and might be closer to a glass pistol . 

Great read, you've put some good thought into this. I'm starting to think that, as I posted above, many minimum size units harpies is our best cost efficient draft for objective sniping. Esp. 9" Heart-renderer deployment and then after their shooting a 50/50 roll if that unit can move up to 6". So you'd move just enough to contest a point but not close enough to engage the unit in combat(because they're so fragile.) Shadow Patrol is one option for that. Albeit an expensive option, it's an option. 

Here lately I'm really starting to feel like DoK are not designed to win first deployment(only a couple builds are possible and they're pretty lacking in efficiency aside from Hagg Narr Cauldron Guard) It's feeling like we're designed to be a glass cannon offense army, to go second, and move people off points. After shifting my lists around to that style(9 drops lol) I've gained so much more efficiencies(e.g. more Haq Queens, more small units of Heart-renderers ) that's it's been much easier to take objectives from opponents than when prior I was 2 dropping and having a very difficult time  trying to hold objectives for 3+ rounds when I'm a glass cannon.

 

[DJMoose]

1 minute ago, Jais said:

Here lately I'm really starting to feel like DoK are not designed to win first deployment(only a couple builds are possible and they're pretty lacking in efficiency aside from Hagg Narr Cauldron Guard) It's feeling like we're designed to be a glass cannon offense army, to go second, and move people off points. After shifting my lists around to that style(9 drops lol) I've gained so much more efficiencies(e.g. more Haq Queens, more small units of Heart-renderers ) that's it's been much easier to take objectives from opponents than when prior I was 2 dropping and having a very difficult time  trying to hold objectives for 3+ rounds when I'm a glass cannon.

I've been able to squeeze in only a few drops in lower point games when I use Temple Nest, but I like to include lots of Hag Queens and it starts adding up to lots of drops when I play around 2000pts.  Sure there are big advantages to going first, but if we go second we typically can be in combat by our first turn, if your opponent has moved up far enough.  I have had much more success taking objectives from opponents than holding them, although I usually hold my own objectives by advancing up far enough my opponent cannot get to them without going through my units.

[Aaron Schmidt]

How many Hag Queens do you take? 

[DJMoose]

3 minutes ago, Aaron Schmidt said:

How many Hag Queens do you take? 

The last 2000pt game I played I had two Hags, a Slaughter Queen, and a Bloodwrack Medusa outside of the Temple Nest. I didn't have my Shrine/Cauldron built yet at the time so I filled up points with heroes. One Hag for each 10 girl Blood Sister squad I had was gross.

[Aaron Schmidt]

Yeah, that was kind of the combo I was thinking with the Hags / Sisters. I've not gotten to the table with any of this yet. 

[DJMoose]

1 hour ago, Aaron Schmidt said:

Yeah, that was kind of the combo I was thinking with the Hags / Sisters. I've not gotten to the table with any of this yet. 

In the Battle Report I posted a few pages back, Blood Sisters backed up by Hag Queens with Withbrew is just insane.  Of course prayers are helpful, but Witchbrew is too good not to take in my opinion.  Especially since battleshock immunity adds just a bit of staying power to our normally glass cannon units.  And a Hag Queen can do that and add the ability to reroll all wounds without spending a command point.