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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

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The Realm Spells aren’t overpowered with the exception of Banishment, which needs to be FAQed. Banishment also has the virtue of being an anti-Deathstar Spell.

They add a lot to Matched Play.

Edited by Nico

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Hey folks,

I recently started the game, although I have a background of competitive play in other games.  I'm looking for a little help and feedback on a few list-building questions to help me iron out 2000 points as I paint/assemble/acquire models.

Goals/concerns:  

I'd like to feel something playable and strong.  This is my primary motivation, as my play group is likely to focus on this area of the game.

I'd like to include Morathi.  She seems flexible, and fits my playstyle well.  I'd love some suggestions about how to get the best use out of her in an army list.

I'm having a little bit of trouble with a third battleline unit.  Is it worth running a Medusa as a general to take Blood Sisters?

Warscroll Battalions seem expensive, especially with the cost and sunk cost of units you might not otherwise use, but command points and items seem decent.  Is something like a Cauldron Guard worth investing in?  (I'd need to purchase the flying units, but don't mind).

Endless spells.  Cogs seem really strong.  Are any of these auto-include, or particularly synergistic with Morathi?

Finally, is there a particular relic from one of the realms worth getting?  I'd like to paint/theme my army off the realm they're from, so this is a choice I'd like to have some idea about early.  

I currently own:

Morathi
Blood Coven x3
Witch Aelves x3 (total 60)
Blood Sisters x3

I'm happy to purchase more, but I don't want to do so without a clear goal in mind.  

Thanks in advance for the help and discussion folks.  From what I've read so far the community here is really great.

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On 6/26/2018 at 10:53 AM, DJMoose said:

Taking a look at the three new Nighthaunt characters that just came out, Hagg Nar is looking even more appetizing.  Those three characters can churn out a good amount of mortal wounds, so that boost to Fanatical Faith saves will be super helpful.  One of my gaming buds is all about the new Nighthaunt stuff, so I'm preparing myself to face them.

I think what I dislike most about fighting undead in general is how absolutely resilient they can be with healing wounds and getting units back.  Bravery 10 all around prevents us from using mindrazor shenanigans unless you are going to focus your spells and artifacts to do that exclusively.  Mortal wounds are an excellent way to get around Nighthaunt immunity to rend, so units with shields or with Martyr's Sacrifice could definitely help the mortal wound output.  I've been considering allying in a Sorceress not only for extra spell potential, but also for Word of Pain, as -1 to hit is huge when many Nighthaunt inflict mortal wounds on 6s.

I must say though with the changes to the battleshock phase, Daughters of Khaine have several good ways to avoid taking battleshock tests at all.  Witchbrew and Covenant of the Iron Heart are fantastic ways to ignore battleshock, all without having to spend a command point to use Inspiring Presence.

I am also looking to take advantage of our Blood Rites, as basically we get similar benefits to the new command abilities without having to spend command points.

I'm excited for 2.0!  Nearly have another unit of Blood Sisters built to bring me up to 20.  Going to build another Medusae for more spell casting too.  Our army can nearly do anything you want it to.  It is a great feeling!

Nighthaunt will definitely be a pain in the butt to fight with that crazy 4+ ethereal save, but I’m not too worried. Maybe it’s a cavalier attitude, but I’m confident enough in what my snakes can do. Kunnin Rukk’s 3 million shots per turn is what I fear, lol. 

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13 hours ago, Nico said:

The Realm Spells aren’t overpowered with the exception of Banishment, which needs to be FAQed. Banishment also has the virtue of being an anti-Deathstar Spell.

They add a lot to Matched Play.

I know you weren't replying to me but I disagree strongly soo...here we go. They add nothing but bookkeeping with a dash of balance issues. If they're powerful enough to be casted over whatever warscroll/battletome/endless spell you have, they're probably OP.  If they're not powerful enough to be casted over whatever warscroll/battletome/endless spell you have, they're pointless book-keeping. They also heavily favor more magically capable armies and units. Ironjaws with their 1 maybe 2 weird boys don't get anywhere near the boost Arkhan and his battalion do, for example. And so long as Umbral spellportal exists, there runs the potential of things getting completely out of hand.  They give armies new options...that again heavily favor whichever force is best capable of taking advantage of them, creating more balance issues. Having both armies take the same spells actually makes this problem far worse. The probability of both sides getting the same value out of the same additional spell options is astronomically small.

Relics are even worse. They're either better than every single other option available to you, or they're not taken. With battalions becoming much more rare you're only seeing one relic per list most of the time. And usually those relics are ethereal or refracting lens.  84 relics and only maybe 5 or 6 will see any use in matched play. Relics add less to matched play than any other aspect of allegiance abilities. Most armies only get 1 at a time, and most factions only end up really having 4-5 to choose from. Stormcast have access to something like 120+ relics and only maybe 10 see any play. Heck, with Stormhosts having mandatory relics associated with them, they'll only ever use maybe 3. DoK, even WITH access to the tables STILL choose the prayer relic or shadowstone most of the time. The only meaningful thing a new neutral relic is capable of doing is taking a strong hero and making it bonkers, as is the case with ethereal and refracting lens. 

'But non-battletome armies?' Most non-battletome armies are never going to be able to utilize these spells and relics as well as battletome armies. Who do you think gets more out of having an extra powerful spell to cast, Nagash or an Archmage? It gives them new options, sure, but it also widens the gap between them and the armies that have the tools to use these new options better. The army that MIGHT be able to do something massive with the spells and relics is mixed order, and mixed order was already one of the better armies in the game. They get more help than any other non-battletome army, despite needing it the least.

For matched play, with spells all that happens is you see the power level of whatever magic users are best capable of utilizing them go up, and the power of factions/units who can't utilize them go down. Relics are the same, only on a tinier scale. You'd get exactly the same result by throwing darts labeled "+20pts, +40pts, -20pts, -40pts" at the GHB.

Edited by InvalidUsername

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Thinking about using this list.  Thoughts?

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine - Mortal Realm: Hysh
- Temple: Khailebron
LEADERS
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
- Command Trait : Mistress of Illusion
- Artefact : Lens of Refraction
- Lore of Shadows : The Withering
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- Prayer : Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Blessing of Khaine
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Crimson Rejuvenation
UNITS
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
ENDLESS SPELLS
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
TOTAL:2000

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16 hours ago, Emissary said:

Thinking about using this list.  Thoughts?

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine - Mortal Realm: Hysh
- Temple: Khailebron
LEADERS
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
- Command Trait : Mistress of Illusion
- Artefact : Lens of Refraction
- Lore of Shadows : The Withering
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- Prayer : Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Blessing of Khaine
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Crimson Rejuvenation
UNITS
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
ENDLESS SPELLS
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
TOTAL:2000

Is the blood wrack Shrine the general to unlock the melusai as battline? Personally i feel she's really only useful as the general if you're going with the temple nest.
 

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Yeah, pretty much.  I have another 10 witch aelves to use for the 3rd battleline unit but I can't find the points.  

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Thinking on Shadow Patrol Battalion and how to make it work. 

2 Units of Doomfire Warlocks

4 Units of Khinerai. 

So first up its actually quite free in how you can choose the khinerai as you're not bound to a specific type. This lets you vary them as you wish for the army. However even if you take just the base number of units and the battalion it all comes in at 770 points. That's expensive when one considers that many of those units want to be backed up. 5 Doomfire Warlocks in two groups isn't as good as 10 in one at least in terms of the damage output of Doomfire and in the survivability of the unit itself. 

The Khinerai are in a worse position as they are only one wound each and at 5 in a base group that's very fragile, plus  neither type is blessed with a larger number of attacks either so even if they get the first strike on a target they need to hit the right target to work. So thinking on how to use them so that the shadow patrol hits hard is going to be key. To my mind there's a few ways to use them, assuming that you deploy them off-table rather than on table.

1) Use them in the last few turns or even last turn of the game to swoop in and contest or even secure an objective point. Likely not worth it with more than one group. This gives the player a last chance to secure points in the last part of the game, where the survivability is a lesser issue. 

2) Deploy them in a group focusing on a single target or objective. This overcomes the fragility of the individual units by focusing them on a specific area en-mass. It also increases the chance of them clearing out the area or at least crippling a near-by threat. 

3) Add units to them to increase their potency. Adding units to each group puts a lot of points into the Shadow Patrol, taking it to 1410 points total. That said it does increase the performance of all the various components, but does meant that there's less points on the table for other things - remembering that at least 300 points is needed to get battle-line (minimum) troops on the table and then at least another 100 or so for a general.  Of course once might only put extra units into one or two of the shadow patrol - giving one or two units that hit heavier and the rest that act more for support. 

4) Put more points in to battle-line units and the rest of the army and use the shadow-patrol units to bolster those attacks. 

5) Use additional options to bolster performance. Eg putting a Shadowblade assassin with one of the khinerai units so that when it lands its got the additional wealth of attacks that the assassin offers. Spells and such are also good; eg attacking near a cauldron for the additional save help. 

 

 

To me this somewhat highlights the weakness of khinerai in terms of their damage output and survivability. They are very much a glass cannon and might be closer to a glass pistol . 

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17 minutes ago, Emissary said:

Yeah, pretty much.  I have another 10 witch aelves to use for the 3rd battleline unit but I can't find the points.  

I think it's a great list.  I've put together nearly identical ones myself.  I love Slaughter Queen cauldron general, but I don't think she's a huge loss if you need to have Blood Sister battleline.  I'm not sure I'm sold on cogs though, 7 is too high of a cast to rely upon without any bonuses.

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16 minutes ago, Overread said:

Thinking on Shadow Patrol Battalion and how to make it work. 

2 Units of Doomfire Warlocks

4 Units of Khinerai. 

So first up its actually quite free in how you can choose the khinerai as you're not bound to a specific type. This lets you vary them as you wish for the army. However even if you take just the base number of units and the battalion it all comes in at 770 points. That's expensive when one considers that many of those units want to be backed up. 5 Doomfire Warlocks in two groups isn't as good as 10 in one at least in terms of the damage output of Doomfire and in the survivability of the unit itself. 

The Khinerai are in a worse position as they are only one wound each and at 5 in a base group that's very fragile, plus  neither type is blessed with a larger number of attacks either so even if they get the first strike on a target they need to hit the right target to work. So thinking on how to use them so that the shadow patrol hits hard is going to be key. To my mind there's a few ways to use them, assuming that you deploy them off-table rather than on table.

1) Use them in the last few turns or even last turn of the game to swoop in and contest or even secure an objective point. Likely not worth it with more than one group. This gives the player a last chance to secure points in the last part of the game, where the survivability is a lesser issue. 

2) Deploy them in a group focusing on a single target or objective. This overcomes the fragility of the individual units by focusing them on a specific area en-mass. It also increases the chance of them clearing out the area or at least crippling a near-by threat. 

3) Add units to them to increase their potency. Adding units to each group puts a lot of points into the Shadow Patrol, taking it to 1410 points total. That said it does increase the performance of all the various components, but does meant that there's less points on the table for other things - remembering that at least 300 points is needed to get battle-line (minimum) troops on the table and then at least another 100 or so for a general.  Of course once might only put extra units into one or two of the shadow patrol - giving one or two units that hit heavier and the rest that act more for support. 

4) Put more points in to battle-line units and the rest of the army and use the shadow-patrol units to bolster those attacks. 

5) Use additional options to bolster performance. Eg putting a Shadowblade assassin with one of the khinerai units so that when it lands its got the additional wealth of attacks that the assassin offers. Spells and such are also good; eg attacking near a cauldron for the additional save help. 

 

 

To me this somewhat highlights the weakness of khinerai in terms of their damage output and survivability. They are very much a glass cannon and might be closer to a glass pistol . 

Glad to see someone else putting thought into these units. Everyone I see posts quite positively about Khinerai, but in a support role rather than a large chunk of your amy. I love Doomfires, but tend to agree the consensus is they work better in 10+ which is 320 points. 

The idea of an Assassin in a Khinerai unit is a good one that was suggested to me elsewhere, especially with the realm artefacts available to Ulgu for example (Sword of Judgment, the one that is -3 rend as well) but you're putting that one extra artefact you gain from the battalion into 80 (potentially unreliable) points in an Assassin. A lot of fun though, when you have 4 units of Khinerai harassing and one of them might well have an Assassin bomb inside! 

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31 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

I think it's a great list.  I've put together nearly identical ones myself.  I love Slaughter Queen cauldron general, but I don't think she's a huge loss if you need to have Blood Sister battleline.  I'm not sure I'm sold on cogs though, 7 is too high of a cast to rely upon without any bonuses.

My thoughts on the cogs are 2 fold.  1: Morathi gets a bonus to cast the cogs.  2: The cogs give a much greater chance of charging out of a redeployment from the Mistress of Illusion ability.  

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1 hour ago, Emissary said:

My thoughts on the cogs are 2 fold.  1: Morathi gets a bonus to cast the cogs.  2: The cogs give a much greater chance of charging out of a redeployment from the Mistress of Illusion ability.  

I'm liking the sound of this. Sure, your opponent gets the bonus from the Cogs, but if that let's you make a 7" instead of a 9" charge, then it's worth it.

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11 hours ago, DJMoose said:

I'm liking the sound of this. Sure, your opponent gets the bonus from the Cogs, but if that let's you make a 7" instead of a 9" charge, then it's worth it.

The snakes move so fast, we don’t worry about getting to the enemy, lol. 

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11 hours ago, Scythian said:

The snakes move so fast, we don’t worry about getting to the enemy, lol. 

I was thinking of synergy with the Mistress of Illusion trait, for maximum teleportation charge shenanigans.

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On 7/9/2018 at 9:28 AM, Scythian said:

Nighthaunt will definitely be a pain in the butt to fight with that crazy 4+ ethereal save, but I’m not too worried. Maybe it’s a cavalier attitude, but I’m confident enough in what my snakes can do. Kunnin Rukk’s 3 million shots per turn is what I fear, lol. 

I think that Nighthaunt will be a very easy matchup for most DoK armies. Witch Aelves/Sisters of Slaughter are just ideal for taking down medium to low save models. A full unit of Witches with witchbrew will deal an average of 25 unsaved wounds to Nighthaunt stuff in one go (and that's factoring in the 6++ as well).  That's enough to delete basically any Nighthaunt unit except massive regiments with Inspiring Presence. They can return slain models to a unit, but once a unit is gone it's gone.

A heavily snake based list could struggle a bit more though.

On 7/9/2018 at 4:19 AM, Nico said:

The Realm Spells aren’t overpowered with the exception of Banishment, which needs to be FAQed. Banishment also has the virtue of being an anti-Deathstar Spell.

They add a lot to Matched Play.

 

On 7/9/2018 at 5:35 PM, InvalidUsername said:

I know you weren't replying to me but I disagree strongly soo...here we go. They add nothing but bookkeeping with a dash of balance issues. If they're powerful enough to be casted over whatever warscroll/battletome/endless spell you have, they're probably OP.  If they're not powerful enough to be casted over whatever warscroll/battletome/endless spell you have, they're pointless book-keeping. They also heavily favor more magically capable armies and units. 

Relics are even worse. They're either better than every single other option available to you, or they're not taken. 

'But non-battletome armies?' Most non-battletome armies are never going to be able to utilize these spells and relics as well as battletome armies. Who do you think gets more out of having an extra powerful spell to cast, Nagash or an Archmage? It gives them new options, sure, but it also widens the gap between them and the armies that have the tools to use these new options better. The army that MIGHT be able to do something massive with the spells and relics is mixed order, and mixed order was already one of the better armies in the game. They get more help than any other non-battletome army, despite needing it the least.

 

I agree more with @Nico here than with @InvalidUsername, albeit with some caveats. I do think that Inferno Blades is also broken. A spell that gives +1 to hit or +1 to wound would be considered quite powerful, increasing the damage on a unit with a 5+ roll by 50%, with a 4+ roll by 33% and with a 3+ roll by 25%. So few units have 6+ rolls to hit or wound that I'm not going to really consider that situation. So such a spell would be a 25-50% damage boost. Inferno Blades is a 100% damage boost to any damage 1 weapons and a 50% damage boost to damage 2 or d3 weapons. Very few things do more damage than that. So Inferno Blades is very often a 100% damage boost, or failing that a 50% damage boost. That's absolutely crazy. I agree though that the rest are largely fine and add to matched play. That said, unless a tournament is using a clear tournament pack where each round is set on a specific realm that is announced ahead of time, I think the level of bookkeeping in a tournament setting is far too high.

I think there are some problems with your logic, @InvalidUsername. For one, it's possible that there are spells that are very useful in specific situations but useless outside of those situations. Thus those spells can be situationally worth casting without being OP. They do certainly favor more magically capable armies, but that isn't inherently unbalanced. It's just another factor that must be considered when applying points values to powerful spellcasters. Relics can fit into the same situational argument that I used above. Things like the Lens of Refraction can also act as a safety valve for balance. Lens itself might go too far, but giving everyone access to certain "hoser" artefacts can help ensure that there is a major risk in using a gimmicky strategy (like, for example, Kroaknado). 

I also disagree with your battletome vs. non battletome argument. Yes, there are certain builds of Death and Tzeentch that have incredibly powerful spellcasting, and those armies are positioned to take advantage of new spells more readily. That said, because they already have access to powerful battletome spells the actual power increase that they get from casting a realm spell instead of a battletome spell is quite small. The improvement for a non-battletome army is much more substantial, however. The difference between casting arcane bolt and a realm spell is quite large compared to the difference between casting a battletome spell and a realm spell. There are plenty of wizards in non-battletome armies that are well positioned to take advantage of these new spells, too. Darklings Coven Sorceress, for example, can get a +2 to cast bonus easily. A DC army featuring some  of these ladies (or another army allying in a DC package) will absolutely love having access to realm spells. The artefacts are an even more slam-dunk case. It's much more likely that a non-battletome army will find an upgrade in the realm artefacts than a battletome army will. 

I agree with you re: mixed order, to a point. That list was heavily nerfed though -- frosties +40 points each, +60 points minimum on battleline, etc. I don't know if any competitive army saw as many points increases. 

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Couple of points - while a strong boost Inferno Blades is not miles away from +1 Attack for some Units. It’s unbindable and both armies would have access to it.

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Having been looking at a few stats I'm coming to the view that our Blood Stalkers are a bit, well, stuck. I kind of think they need 2 or even 3 shots each rather than 1. Sure they are designed to be a mobile shooting platform that moves closer each turn to get into close combat, but even then they pale compared to their sisters; so they kind of end up stuck half way; neither good in either role. 

 

I'm actually thinking a Akhelian Allopexes fits the role better as a skirmisher. 

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Quick question about DOK. I’m an old WHFB player, DE, and I’m thinking about starting AOS with DOK.  My issue is understanding the fluff.  Will order only fight chaos, destruction, and death?  I’m having a hard time understanding if they are allies why would they ever attack the Stormcast Eternals for example.  My buddies are Stormcast Eternals and we aren’t sure if they would ever fight.  I get that we can just do it but does it fit the fluff and if so where in the AOS cannon does it support this theory?

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12 minutes ago, MagnusTheRed said:

Quick question about DOK. I’m an old WHFB player, DE, and I’m thinking about starting AOS with DOK.  My issue is understanding the fluff.  Will order only fight chaos, destruction, and death?  I’m having a hard time understanding if they are allies why would they ever attack the Stormcast Eternals for example.  My buddies are Stormcast Eternals and we aren’t sure if they would ever fight.  I get that we can just do it but does it fit the fluff and if so where in the AOS cannon does it support this theory?

According to the DoK battletome, the Daughters of Khaine are tolerated due to their hatred of Chaos and fighting prowess, but are not entirely trusted. Some orders of Stormcast would refuse to fight alongside them due to their blood rituals. The melusai and khinerai are not known to the general public.

You could probably say that one particularly puritanical Stormhost viewed the melusai and khinerai as mutants, or that they viewed the Daughters blood rituals as the work of Chaos. You could pretty easily justify fighting the Daughters of Khaine as they are pretty close to evil. Lawful Evil, but evil nonetheless. Or Morathi and Sigmar have particular plans for a certain part of a realm or some resources and they come into conflict over it. Both factions are basically devoted followers of their deities (or demigod for Morathi) and would probably fight their hardest until told otherwise.

That's just my two cents.

Edited by DJMoose

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What the Grand Alliance structure doesn't really show is that most of the factions within the Grand Alliances are only allies of convenience against greater foes. 

 

For example Destruction and Order and Death all allied against Chaos originally. However over time Destruction and Death forces broke away, which is mostly the gods/leaders of those Grand Alliances falling out with each other (ergo falling out with Sigmar). That filters down to the peoples that they rule over. 

Further within each alliance there are power struggles, wars, deceptions and private agendas. Daughters of Khaine are a great example of a force which has temples wide spread through many Order cities and who are tolerated as allies because of their significant prowess in battle and their hatred of chaos. However they are VERY unreliable allies. There's a short snippet of a story about an allied fight and a soldier watching a Witch Aelf fight, only for her to smile and turn on him and take his heart as well. 

 

Meanwhile some other factions are totally changed; the Shadowblades are no where a part of the old Dark Elves and are instead described almost like Sigmars own Inquisition force. Left behind when he originally closed the gates in order to be the deadly hand that operated in the shadows to fight against Chaos before Sigmar's return with his Stormcast.

There are still ties; most of the old High Elf factions ally with each other and no one else; same for the old Dark Elf, Human and such. So the old structure is still there; but the various components are broken up and have their own unique Lores. Honestly I really wihs GW would revise their website and introduce the factions better - there is a lot greater depth to them than is presented. 

 

 

 

So yes there's every reason that a shadowy group of Daughters of Khaine would raid a Stormcast war host. Or turn on them at the end of a previous battle; or compete with them over a shrine or other resource. The various temples and underlines can well war when their godly overseers are also arguing in the background. Only for them to throw down those differences at large to stand united against a Chaos incursion. 

 

I actually rather want to read the Deepkin battletome as they are even more fickle allies of anyone as they come to the surface specifically to steal the souls of the living so that their race might continue to live. 

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So I've been looking at the Blood Coven box, and now it is missing. Does anyone know anything about that?

 

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It's being discontinued so its basically gone from the GW store; however there appears to still be stock around within the distribution network so many stores are still getting it; but I'd expect it to run out at some point. What GW will do then is unknown. They might relist it; they might simply do away with it. What is clear is that Daughters still lack a Getting started boxed set and really could do with one (personally I'd really like to see one with, say, two units of witches and then a group of snakes or harpies - whever happens we could really do with some means of getting Witch Aelves for less - they are very overpriced for a core troop choice!)

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24 minutes ago, Overread said:

It's being discontinued so its basically gone from the GW store; however there appears to still be stock around within the distribution network so many stores are still getting it; but I'd expect it to run out at some point. What GW will do then is unknown. They might relist it; they might simply do away with it. What is clear is that Daughters still lack a Getting started boxed set and really could do with one (personally I'd really like to see one with, say, two units of witches and then a group of snakes or harpies - whever happens we could really do with some means of getting Witch Aelves for less - they are very overpriced for a core troop choice!)

I completely agree, that‘s why I stopped getting more DoK unties Start collecting is released.

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Question here on modelling rather than playing; but when it comes to the Cauldron how have people approached assembly and painting. Is it practical to assemble then paint it (esp the section with the stone hand gripping in the rear of the unit) or is it really a paint then put together affair? 

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On 7/14/2018 at 6:00 AM, Overread said:

Having been looking at a few stats I'm coming to the view that our Blood Stalkers are a bit, well, stuck. I kind of think they need 2 or even 3 shots each rather than 1. Sure they are designed to be a mobile shooting platform that moves closer each turn to get into close combat, but even then they pale compared to their sisters; so they kind of end up stuck half way; neither good in either role. 

 

I'm actually thinking a Akhelian Allopexes fits the role better as a skirmisher. 

Yeah, Blood Stalkers are odd. I’ve taken five to snipe characters, with their 24” range and chance for mortal wounds, but  never seem to roll sixes when I need them. I’ve had a bit of success using them to defend an objective in my own zone, shooting anyone who pollutes my side of the table with their “feet”. They’re pretty solid vs cheap infiltrators.

They’re better paired with Morathi, to get an extra round of shooting in the Hero phase. They can’t cause mortal wounds in that round however.

 

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