AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Chumphammer]

Could be easy enough. 

Scenery: Some for of Alter of Khaine that gives bonus to units in range,  or gains points for models that die near it which can be spent like BoK chart

Endless spell: Fury of Khaine (maybe a spectral avatar or something that does direct damage to a unit)

I would love a better shooting unit, but it just doesnt fit the DoK theme. Same as armoured snakes/WE

Maybe give us a Behemoth, something like a better Hydra

[whispersofblood]

9 hours ago, Xil said:

I think with the points change to our units in conjunction with the lower costs of other battletomes we are getting forced into Hag Narr even more. There isn't much to gain, if at all, by taking other Temples. 

I kind of hope for a new Tome with some new units that give us some flexibility in list building. Also faction terrain and endless spell/prayers. 

I don't know if it fits the thread, but what do you think would be a cool addition?

Which is pretty much what I said would happen. 

I actually dropped my cauldron believe it or not, have a medusa general now. The lack of shooting basically makes it a wash and I found the 5+/5++ is just better than any other combination of temple 4+/6++. But, I had already built all most models with shields, not sure what I would do if I was playing double dagger this whole time.

edit* Also shields help with the going last from locus and lets you not be so concerned about getting charges, and lets you just take up aggressive defensive positions on the board. And they kill themselves in their turn so they don't summon until you have had a turn to change your positioning. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by whispersofblood

[tman3257]

10 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Which is pretty much what I said would happen. 

I actually dropped my cauldron believe it or not, have a medusa general now. The lack of shooting basically makes it a wash and I found the 5+/5++ is just better than any other combination of temple 4+/6++. But, I had already built all most models with shields, not sure what I would do if I was playing double dagger this whole time.

edit* Also shields help with the going last from locus and lets you not be so concerned about getting charges, and lets you just take up aggressive defensive positions on the board. And they kill themselves in their turn so they don't summon until you have had a turn to change your positioning. 

This has not been my experience so far with concerns to the armor save.  5+ or 6+ doesn't seem to matter a whole lot vs Slaanesh.  It's the Fanatical 5++ that really does the work.  Keepers have a minimum of -1 rend and the claws, which do the most damage, would negate a 5+ armor save entirely.  Being a 4+ isn't a whole ton better usually, as that's just relegated to a 6+ on the claws.

Facing an enemy with little to no rend and the shields are fantastic.  4+/5++ is amazing.  Unfortunately the biggest threats out there right now are commonly -2 rend. 

[whispersofblood]

11 minutes ago, tman3257 said:

This has not been my experience so far with concerns to the armor save.  5+ or 6+ doesn't seem to matter a whole lot vs Slaanesh.  It's the Fanatical 5++ that really does the work.  Keepers have a minimum of -1 rend and the claws, which do the most damage, would negate a 5+ armor save entirely.  Being a 4+ isn't a whole ton better usually, as that's just relegated to a 6+ on the claws.

Facing an enemy with little to no rend and the shields are fantastic.  4+/5++ is amazing.  Unfortunately the biggest threats out there right now are commonly -2 rend. 

The bucklers are for dishing mw primarily, and they have some utility against rend -, but your right when it comes to saving my models I rely on the 5++/5++. Most of HoS is only -1 rend though, so its nice to always be rolling dice. 

[Lucentia]

9 hours ago, Xil said:

I kind of hope for a new Tome with some new units that give us some flexibility in list building. Also faction terrain and endless spell/prayers. 

I don't know if it fits the thread, but what do you think would be a cool addition?

Could be waiting a fair while for that!  But then again we're almost up to date on most armies having battletomes, so I guess it could be sooner than expected!

It's interesting cos to me the easy faction terrain options are already represented in the army in the form of the Cauldron of Blood and Avatar of Khaine, like, you could just tweak the avatar warscroll a bit and have it function as an allegiance terrain piece.  I'd suspect some sort of big, immobile avatar statue which can swing it nearby enemies for a few mortal wounds coupled with some sort of weak buff to friendly units nearby would be appropriate.

For endless spells I would quite like to see models which can function as either spells of Khorne style judgements depending on whether a priest of wizard summons them into battle, with the spell versions being harder to cast but having stronger effects representing Morathi's magic underpinning the whole cult.

[zedatkinszed]

On 8/28/2019 at 9:18 PM, Lucentia said:

Could be waiting a fair while for that!  But then again we're almost up to date on most armies having battletomes, so I guess it could be sooner than expected!

It's interesting cos to me the easy faction terrain options are already represented in the army in the form of the Cauldron of Blood and Avatar of Khaine, like, you could just tweak the avatar warscroll a bit and have it function as an allegiance terrain piece.  I'd suspect some sort of big, immobile avatar statue which can swing it nearby enemies for a few mortal wounds coupled with some sort of weak buff to friendly units nearby would be appropriate.

For endless spells I would quite like to see models which can function as either spells of Khorne style judgements depending on whether a priest of wizard summons them into battle, with the spell versions being harder to cast but having stronger effects representing Morathi's magic underpinning the whole cult.

This is my pov too. Re: terrian/spells the avatar is an easy win. Even if GW don't want to make another alternate model that could be sold separately, the cauldron Avatar still could acts as an Endless spell. I haven't seen any one using the avatar on foot outside pick-up games or for fun, so it wouldn't be a huge loss. 

Alternatively for terrain what I'd love to see is an altar of Khaine kinda like the FEC throne or Fyreslayer forge. 

But IMHO what DOK needs are sold separately Hags and a replacement for the Doomfire Warlocks. The Doomfires have a limited life expectancy due to being a dual kit with what will be a defunct alternate build eventually. So my guess is that in a new DOK tome (whenever that happpens) they won't make the cut. I'd love another new unit but I can live without one - heroes (named and unnamed) are what we lack. 

Edited August 31, 2019 by zedatkinszed

[Chumphammer]

Anyone thinking Gotrek in a DoK list? 

Hes very very smashy and really hard to kill. Only downside is mv4

rough draft:

Gotrek
HQ on Cauldron
Hag Queen
Bloodwrack
3 x 10 WE (chaff clear/screens)
20 Snakes (main hitty unit)
5 Heartrenders
 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Chumphammer

[DJMoose]

52 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Anyone thinking Gotrek in a DoK list? 

Hes very very smashy and really hard to kill. Only downside is mv4

Throw Morathi at him. 480pt model to render a 520pt model useless for the rest of the game. Sure he's killy and tough; basically everything I hate about Fyreslayers in one model. Would he be a good anchor for an objective or something? Sure. Probably wouldn't use him for the same reason I usually don't use Morathi: 500pts for one model when I can get 20 Blood Sisters for the same price.

[Chumphammer]

So the Morathi list I tried has lost 5 games straight (vs Slaanesh/Skaven) 

 am rolling back to before I ran Morathi and actually won games lol

So, I am looking at this atm:

Hagg Gnar
SQ on Cauldron - general
Devoted Disciples, Ignax scales, Catachism of murder

Hag queen 
Blessing of Khaine

Hag Queen
Sacrament of blood

Bloodwrack Medua
Mindrazor

10 WE (2 knives)
10 We (2 knives)
30 Sos (knives)
20 Blood Sisters 
5 Lifetakers
5 lifetakers
Cauldron Guard

I tried no batallion with 8 drops before and didnt do great

Leaves me with 50pts and an item

Can give the hag iron circlet or Medusa Shadowstone

50pts could be an endless spell or command point. Maybe emerald lifeswarm for cauldron/snakes

Thoughts?

The other idea I had was:

 

Hagg Gnar
Hag on Cauldron - general
Devoted Disciples, Ignax scales, blessing of khaine

Hag queen (Catachism)

Hag Queen (healing prayer)

Bloodwrack Medua
Mindrazor

30 WE (bucklers)
10 We (2 knives)
30 Sos (knives)
20 Blood Sisters 
5 heartrenders
5 heartrenders

10 drops but 3 big units with 3 witch brews
 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Chumphammer

[Kaleun]

regarding Gotrek:

To say the consensus first: I do not think Gotrek will find himself suited to run around with dark elven murder aelfs. I do not think the ladies would appreciate that beard either.
 

However that guy is tough as nails. That 3+ negation of wounds and mortal wounds makes him super hard to kill, while the ability to attack twice really comes in handy against targets with a save value of 3+ or 4+. That guy is a Stormcast blob killer type of guy! Or greater Daemons, or ...

anywayI do not think he is comparable to Morathi honestly. Morathi is a very fast tarpit unit, while Gotrek... well he has a big beard, but very short legs. He might fit in an army that is slow as him or can compensate his movement. So a way to fit him in would be something  like Spellcasters + Soulscream Bridge.

Edit: "Soulscream Bridge"

Edited September 6, 2019 by Kaleun

[Thenord]

 Quick question that I can't find in the FAQ.

Does Morathis bonus range to spells adds to endless spells also?
 

[Graywater]

12 hours ago, Kaleun said:

regarding Gotrek:

 

To say the consensus first: I do not think Gotrek will find himself suited to run around with dark elven murder aelfs. I do not think the ladies would appreciate that beard either.
 

However that guy is tough as nails. That 3+ negation of wounds and mortal wounds makes him super hard to kill, while the ability to attack twice really comes in handy against targets with a save value of 3+ or 4+. That guy is a Stormcast blob killer type of guy! Or greater Daemons, or ...

anywayI do not think he is comparable to Morathi honestly. Morathi is a very fast tarpit unit, while Gotrek... well he has a big beard, but very short legs. He might fit in an army that is slow as him or can compensate his movement. So a way to fit him in would be something  like Spellcasters + Soulscream Bridge.

 

Can gotrek use the soulscream bridge, considering the avatar of grimnir ability disallows him being removed from the table and set up again during the game?

[Lucentia]

Yeah, no Soulscream Bridge for Gortrek by my read, he is specifically prevented from using any set-up abilities. 

I don't know if he's that valuable in a DoK list (and not just for the aesthetic crime you would be committing!)  His damage is certainly good, but it's not exactly an army starving for damage output, and Morathi makes for a better tarpit most of the time if you're looking to spend 1/4 of your points on a single model.

[InSaint]

5 hours ago, Thenord said:

 Quick question that I can't find in the FAQ.

Does Morathis bonus range to spells adds to endless spells also?
 

No, it is in the Malign Sorcery FAQ that Wizards' abilities that increases the damage and range of spells does not affect endless spell.

3 minutes ago, Lucentia said:

I don't know if he's that valuable in a DoK list (and not just for the aesthetic crime you would be committing!)  His damage is certainly good, but it's not exactly an army starving for damage output, and Morathi makes for a better tarpit most of the time if you're looking to spend 1/4 of your points on a single model.

Yeah, GW conveniently to pitch Gotrek vs Morathi in their showcase. Even if Morathi were to die, she would have wasted 2 turns of his. lol

[Kaleun]

18 minutes ago, Lucentia said:

Yeah, no Soulscream Bridge for Gortrek by my read, he is specifically prevented from using any set-up abilities. 

I don't know if he's that valuable in a DoK list (and not just for the aesthetic crime you would be committing!)  His damage is certainly good, but it's not exactly an army starving for damage output, and Morathi makes for a better tarpit most of the time if you're looking to spend 1/4 of your points on a single model.

my bad. Misread that one. No Bridge + Gotrek. However maybe there are some movement buffs that can make him faster.
 

[Chumphammer]

Had an idea for a Khailebron list for an upcoming tournament.

Why Khailebron? The tournament is 5 games using a lot of random movement scenarios (Shifting, Places of Arcane, Blood and Glory, Starstrike, Relocation orb)

This is not a hardcore event. There will be tough lists, but its not like what I will be looking at for LVO in Jan

idea:

Morathi (Mirror Dance)
SQ on Cauldron (General) with Crimson Rejuvenation (Not sure what item to take. Hag brew, Croneblade, Scales and Thermalrider all good options)
HagQueen (Catechism)
Bloodwrack Medusa with Shadow Stone and Mindrazor
3 x 10 Witch Aelves  (knives)
30 Sisters of slaughter (Knives)
2 x 5 Lifetakers
Cauldron Guard

6 drops

Idea is to get msu Witch Aelves everywhere, Morathi being a constant threat turn 1, and Using lifetakers as support or for capping objectives they they move to a position I can capitalize 

Turn 1 is basically Khaileborn Shadow thehag somewhere, making sure Morathi is out of range of dispel and in the 24" mirror bubble. Transform her and switch her out with the hag.

Hag buff supports Sisters of slaughter. Army runs up but spread out (within 18 of cauldron). Maybe MR Morathi before she goes if worth it. 

Morathi moves around, free to do so and heads for deadlist unit to hold up or great targets to smash up (A local guy is terrorizing the scene with 12 jezzails) 

Turn 2, teleport some WE near Morathi but 9 from Enemy. If places right I can use the command ability to reroll charge, and with +1 for cauldron that can work well. Also, could drop down Lifetakers, try and put MR and Catachism on them for some tasty damage

SOS are the big block to support and do combat damage

Basically the army is pretty fast(why I was looking at thermal rider on SQ so she can run up and smash face)

I wont be able to cast my 1 witch brew turn 1, as the mirror dance units have to be 6 inch away from another unit, but thats ok as Morathi will hopefully take the attention away and I can command point the battleshock test if needs be

Anyway, just an idea I might try. it can be very tactical and if against some I cant chip off I can just jump on Objectives turn 1 and hold them for as long as I can while slowing the enemy with msu

[Xil]

How do you take Gotrek in a list other than Duradin anyway? Isn't the limit for allies 400 points?! 

[Overread]

16 minutes ago, Xil said:

How do you take Gotrek in a list other than Duradin anyway? Isn't the limit for allies 400 points?! 

His profile stats specifically state that he can be taken in any army of the Grand Alliance Order. In addition whilst he exceeds the allies point limit his rules allow him to be added to any army of 1K points (including Meeting Engagement rule armies) or greater. However if taken he is the only allied unit you can take in your force. 

So yes the allies limit is 1/4 of your total army points, but Gotrek gets a special exemption from that rule. It's fair as he's a single character and cannot be taken with other allies (we might possibly see that changed only if they release his new Dark Aelf companion as a model in the future).

[GreatWhiteNorthIronjawz]

On 9/6/2019 at 10:02 AM, Chumphammer said:

Had an idea for a Khailebron list for an upcoming tournament.

Why Khailebron? The tournament is 5 games using a lot of random movement scenarios (Shifting, Places of Arcane, Blood and Glory, Starstrike, Relocation orb)

This is not a hardcore event. There will be tough lists, but its not like what I will be looking at for LVO in Jan

idea:

Morathi (Mirror Dance)
SQ on Cauldron (General) with Crimson Rejuvenation (Not sure what item to take. Hag brew, Croneblade, Scales and Thermalrider all good options)
HagQueen (Catechism)
Bloodwrack Medusa with Shadow Stone and Mindrazor
3 x 10 Witch Aelves  (knives)
30 Sisters of slaughter (Knives)
2 x 5 Lifetakers
Cauldron Guard

6 drops

Idea is to get msu Witch Aelves everywhere, Morathi being a constant threat turn 1, and Using lifetakers as support or for capping objectives they they move to a position I can capitalize 

Turn 1 is basically Khaileborn Shadow thehag somewhere, making sure Morathi is out of range of dispel and in the 24" mirror bubble. Transform her and switch her out with the hag.

Hag buff supports Sisters of slaughter. Army runs up but spread out (within 18 of cauldron). Maybe MR Morathi before she goes if worth it. 

Morathi moves around, free to do so and heads for deadlist unit to hold up or great targets to smash up (A local guy is terrorizing the scene with 12 jezzails) 

Turn 2, teleport some WE near Morathi but 9 from Enemy. If places right I can use the command ability to reroll charge, and with +1 for cauldron that can work well. Also, could drop down Lifetakers, try and put MR and Catachism on them for some tasty damage

SOS are the big block to support and do combat damage

Basically the army is pretty fast(why I was looking at thermal rider on SQ so she can run up and smash face)

I wont be able to cast my 1 witch brew turn 1, as the mirror dance units have to be 6 inch away from another unit, but thats ok as Morathi will hopefully take the attention away and I can command point the battleshock test if needs be

Anyway, just an idea I might try. it can be very tactical and if against some I cant chip off I can just jump on Objectives turn 1 and hold them for as long as I can while slowing the enemy with msu

Planning for daughters at LVO as well. My Nighthaunt are too swingy. Plan is to pay the tax and run temple nest in hopes blocks of snakes can just smash through everything and Hag Nar save gets them through the activation wars. 

[DantePQ]

It won't played few games with Temple Nest - you do need Morath and Cauldron to make it work and you can't fit them both. Played games with Cauldron Hag, Bloodwrack Shrine, 20 Sisters, 10 Sisters, 2x5 Stalkers and 30 SoS with bucklers and it perform ok but wasn't really good vs Slaanesh or any other mobile armies. With Morathi you're losing +1 do save on Sisters which is huge. 

[Chumphammer]

So I really fancy taking a DoK Gotrek list to a local tournament. Current meta isnt affecting it, and Top 7 at a recent event was:

Blades of Khorne 
Blades of Khorne 
Grand Host of Nagash
Skaven
Blades of Khorne 
Fyreslayers
Skaven

I own:
Gotrek
Morathi
Cauldron x 2
Medusa
10 Heart Renders (10 Life takers on the way)
10 Doomfire warlocks
2 Hags
Knight Incantor 
40 Witch Elves
30 Sisters of Slaughter
20 Blood Sister
10 Blood Hunters (bows)

List I have atm is:

Mortathi (Mindrazor)
Gotrek
Hag (General, Devoted Disciples, Ignax Scales, Blessing of khaine)
Hag (Catachism)
30 Witch Aevles (shields)
30 Sisters of Slaughter (shields)
10 Witch Aelves (Daggers)
100pts spare (could take 2 command points?) 

Thoughts? 

This tournament isnt hardcore 

Also 2 towers list lol
Gotrek
Mortathi
Hag on Cauldron
Hag on Cauldron
3 x 10 Witch Aelves

Edited September 16, 2019 by Chumphammer

[Chumphammer]

Or the towers list! was chatting to jack about doing this one
Morathi
Gotrek
Hag on cauldron, general, devoted disciples, Ignax scales, Blessing of khaine
Hag on Cauldron, Catachism of murder 
3 x 10 Witch Aelves 

Thats a lot of damage output and tanky models with both cauldrons on a 4+/5+. One with 4+ vs mortal wounds and then the same one or the other with blessing if needs be

[Graywater]

Your first list seems strong, presenting 4 real threats. I'm more interested in your second list, the "towers". It's light on numbers, but it's different. A lot of daughters lists tend to look a bit samey, so something like that stands out. I have no idea on how well itll do, but a 1 day local event is the low stakes environment to give it a shot. Gotrek and morathi also both present very unique problems for your opponent, so double teaming with them is an interesting concept.

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, Graywater said:

Your first list seems strong, presenting 4 real threats. I'm more interested in your second list, the "towers". It's light on numbers, but it's different. A lot of daughters lists tend to look a bit samey, so something like that stands out. I have no idea on how well itll do, but a 1 day local event is the low stakes environment to give it a shot. Gotrek and morathi also both present very unique problems for your opponent, so double teaming with them is an interesting concept.

Yeah I like the two towers list also. Could be fun and packs a punch.

I am building the 2nd Cauldron atm (I have one but missing the avatar, but local friend giving me the old metal one which will give the cauldrons a good difference)

List I am going to try tonight, just to get the feel of things is this:

 

Morathi
Gotrek
Hag (General, Devoted Disciples, Ignax Scales, Blessing of khaine)
30 Sisters of Slaughter (shields)
10 Witch Aelves 
10 Witch Aelves 
10 Witch Aelves 

[Graywater]

Let me know how you do, as I'm curious about adding gotrek to my collection as a potential ally. I like the dual threat of morathi and gotrek as two immovable objects.