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AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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1 hour ago, Mutter said:

I wouldn't, and the answer is actually already there: :)

DoK are basically made by all the synergies. I see no reason to water that down.

Sure that is a point, but how much value do we really get from the buffs? It is very situational, but shouldnt we put all those nice buffs on that big 30-Girl unit of Witch elves or Sisters of Slaughter? How much Buff-Love do the Blood Sisters get during the important game turns anyway? The Executioners can use a arcane shield, but wont need much else.

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I would never use Executioners over Blood Sisters, and I play A LOT with Blood Sisters. 

You must compare them in DoK army taking allegiance abilities into play (for example BS have 6++) the beauty of buffs and synergies in DoK is that you use them on what you need. Witchbrew and prayers are easy to use and opponent can do little to stop it, then there is Cauldron aura, Slaughter Queen Command Ability. In army I am taking to GT there is Slaughter Queen with Blessing okf Khaine, Medusa with Mindrazor, 2xHag Queen with prayers to buff those Snake Girls. There is so many synergies that even by simply keeping Blood Sisters near General I have +1 save ,5++  and Command Ability. Cast Mindrazor on them and they hit like a truck with no other buffs. 

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Lets follow up with a small exposé about the Doomfire Warlocks. Maybe you can back up my theoretical approach by practical experience with them. The question is: are the Warlocks a competitive choice and how can we use the male warriors of the mostly-female-army of Khaine (or keep them as drones for "special tasks" - they wont mind for sure)

I dive right into the numbers:

image.png.931853ac0a0b97b49b63acb229133309.png

The basic strategy with them is to put some effort in bringing them to the frontline via different possibilities of deepstriking/teleporting etc. Always take into account the cost of the unit and the cost of the effort compared to the gain we get from this strategy.

Chain of statistic wound values of a squad of 10 Warlocks:

10 Doomfire Warlocks (320 points) teleport 9" to the enemy and cast in the Hero Phase. They shoot their Crossbows and want to charge then and we calculate their statistical wounds they do in the first combat phase while having a successful charge. -> They will put out 18,299 wounds (before saves, successful charge)

10 Warlocks against 15 Liberators (300 points): 12,167 wounds (after saves, but with a successful charge!)

=> On a alpha strike we will kill 6 Libies on average. This is comparable to a third of the units cost. Expect the Warlocks to die in the next turn however. We see that the use of teleporting Warlocks is questionable and they should rather attack an enemy unit of higher value to make their points back.

The reason for my calculation is army development. I would like to discuss different army concepts. We already have great army lists and Battle Reports in this thread.

 

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I would use Blood Sisters over Executioners purely for the (very important) fact that the Sisters look better as models, though I also think the extra movement and access to DoK buffs pulls them ahead even if the general damage output is lower on paper (Hagg Nar re-rolls coupled with Catechism, for example, can really boost their mortal wound output), they also have the 2" melee range over the Executioners which, granted, they're on bigger bases, but it does mean you can sometimes sneak attacks onto a mis-positioned support hero or similar.  Plus having a unit with base rend -1 is handy in case you need to Mindrazor them to crack something your Witches won't be able to.

Warlocks are a bit of a toolkit unit I find, I rarely want them to be actually charging into combat, frankly I rarely even want them in range to use their crossbows a lot of the time.  They tend to be a low priority target, as well as being a very fast moving Wizard, which is good for those new wizards score missions, give them an easy spell like Shroud of Despair and they can run support when they're not in position to Doombolt something worthwhile.  Teleporting 10 with Khailebron can be good I think, but only if you have a good shot at something they can kill in one Doombolt, with a big squad you can teleport them in a fairly long line to tag objectives/arcane terrain/keep in range of the general to teleport again next turn, etc.   I only tend to commit them to combat in later turns to grab objectives or try and kill of depleted enemy units, and such.

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I've used 10 Warlocks in HaggNarr army I won Throne of Skulls Europe with but for 320 but they are hardly worth 320 points, they look cool on paper. Units of 5 on the other hand could be good, if you do't run Medusa with Shadow Stone they are better as choice as spellcasters then Medusa they are 20points more expensive, but faster,more wounds, better spell (when there is 5 of them) 

Problem with Dok spellcasters is that they are pretty average and expensive, Morathi is cool but you can't keep her in small form forever and after that you don't have reliable caster as no other model casts more then one spell or have some kind of casting bonus.

Also I dropped Morathi from my GT list as she isn't that good against metaarmies and she is kind of big point sink against Nagash.  

 

Edited by DantePQ
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My goal of a 1000 point DoK army is now reached. Maybe you are interested in the planned expansion to 2000 points and get something for yourself. The goals are semi-competitive against Stormcast, Nighthaunt, Idoneth Deepkin and Khorne. While building a army my personal approach is to go for competitive while buying models. This is paired with my love for the models. I do not like spamming, so you wont find 60 witch elves in my army or a army purely made of snakes. The last consideration while building the army is then the option to "downgrade". Downgrading from the competitive approach is very important in my opinion to always being able to make even armies with my opponents. I own nearly everything Druchii related, so allies would be a good option. Options of making different lists with the same model count is also mandatory. Anyway here come the lists that I think are competitive from 1000 points (which I own right now) to the set goal of 2000 points.

1) List Goal 1000 Points:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)
- General
- Trait: Devoted Desciples
- Artefact: Thousand and One Dark Blessings
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 69

I like my army to be as cost efficient as possible. For modelling and price reasons I will convert Dark Eldar Wyches to Sisters of Slaughter. The Witch elves produce a lot of unused plastic. We think green so we use our plastic 🙂

2) List Goal 2000:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows: Mirror Dance
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Trait: Devoted Desciples
- Artefact: Shadow Stone
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer: Sacrament of Blood

Battleline
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
10 x Blood Sisters (280)

Units
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120

This is my planned setup. Do you have advice for me? Anything to change or to try? Are we able to go for a local tournament and also play a soft list?*

 

Kaleun

 

*Soft list = dont play for the optimum -> no horde bonuses, different equipment, allies, more fluff then efficiency.

PS: AoS Shorts if you want to look up actual tournament lists.

 

 

 

 

 

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@KaleunMaking your Medusa General in second list is bad idea, she needs to be 7'' from your units along with Cauldron (Bloodshield) and with 6W she will be targeted a lot as HaggNarr 5++ is very powerful. Sure can be done to shield her but it's not so easy, she's fine as Khailebron general as she can sit away from trouble. Also not having spare CP in a multi-drop army isnt the best idea as some armies like SCE or Deepins can really exploit it (that's why I dropped my Snakes army - it was Medusa on foot as general or no sprare CP)

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You need to also evaluate how Doomfire Warlocks compare to other DoK unit in similar reconnaissance roles.  5 DW is the same point cost as 2 squads of 5 Khinerai Heartrenders.

5 Khinerai Heartrenders at 80 points can;

  • Consistently do approximately 1-2 wounds from shooting
  • Can deepstrike board-wide
  • Can give you slight deployment advantage by delaying your foot troops deployment
  • Has a precious -2 rending on drop and subsequent -1 rend (-2 can be reset with Khailebron) 
  • Fly over and shoot into woods (Slyvaneth watch out!)
  • Move and run and shoot (wtf like as if their movement suck to begin with)
  • Move again after shooting (omg wtf, now you see me, now you don't)
  • Block enemy movement with their huge ass base size
  • Bait enemy hard hitting units off course (gosh I have seen 300 points detouring just to clear off 80 points)
  • Capture and contest objectives
  • Deal some mortal wounds against units that output high volumes of attack
  • Every opponent I played with consistently think they are 2 wounds due to the large base size and ignore them

They are actually borderline broken. I run 2x5 and my opponents are having a hard time dealing with them.

Well yea they are not wizards but if I needed Wizards for objective, I will run with a Bloodwrack Shrine or Morathi.

Edited by InSaint
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Khinerai are no doubt powerful, but if your opponent so much as sneezes in their direction they can die very fast. They are a great distracting and harassment tool, but at the same time an experienced opponent might well deal with them more effectively. They are also something an opponent can plan for - at least in so much as not leaving vulnerable units out alone. 

Doomfires are a bit tougher, granted they can't deep-strike into the battlefield so could take losses before they get into position, but they can at least weather an attack with more guts. 

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1 hour ago, Overread said:

Khinerai are no doubt powerful, but if your opponent so much as sneezes in their direction they can die very fast. They are a great distracting and harassment tool, but at the same time an experienced opponent might well deal with them more effectively. They are also something an opponent can plan for - at least in so much as not leaving vulnerable units out alone. 

Doomfires are a bit tougher, granted they can't deep-strike into the battlefield so could take losses before they get into position, but they can at least weather an attack with more guts. 

In terms of wound count and melee save, both are on par. Honestly, a +5 versus 6+ save against shooting is an overstatement of being a bit tougher. 🤣

But Doomfires are fun to play with especially when you roll a 6 on the Doomfire D6 mortal wound! 

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Hello all, 

I have a question. When building an army of 2000 pts, is Morathi a must-take? I ask as, for that that point cost, I could have for example a bloodwrack shrine and almost a full unit of witch aelves, or two units of 10 Blood Sisters and Heartrenders, etc.  How top-heavy (leaders) should I look at making the army? I figure a CoB should be in there, probably a hag or two, after that I'm not sure how much I should be throwing into units vs. non-units. 

Also, has anyone tried the sorcerer in the army as opposed to a Medusa? Is there any benefit or just stick with the Medusa?

Thanks in advance. 

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It's totally your choice. She's a powerful model in both forms; a powerful mage in her first and a very tough close combat unit in her second. However DoK have a lot of good solid options so you can certainly take alternative options to suit your own desires. So you can certainly take a throne and shrine or more witches and hags etc... 

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17 minutes ago, Bojigwe said:

Hello all, 

I have a question. When building an army of 2000 pts, is Morathi a must-take? I ask as, for that that point cost, I could have for example a bloodwrack shrine and almost a full unit of witch aelves, or two units of 10 Blood Sisters and Heartrenders, etc.  How top-heavy (leaders) should I look at making the army? I figure a CoB should be in there, probably a hag or two, after that I'm not sure how much I should be throwing into units vs. non-units. 

Also, has anyone tried the sorcerer in the army as opposed to a Medusa? Is there any benefit or just stick with the Medusa?

Thanks in advance. 

I am bringing Morathi-less army to Grand Tournament in two weeks so yes I guess you could be fine without Morathi. 

I think Sorceress isn't good alternative, Medusa has more wounds, great anti horde shooting, access to Allegiance Abilities and access to Lore of Shadows (Mindrazor) also she is DoK hero so she can be used to give your Witches +1A.

Unless you wanna go really Snake heavy Slaughter Queen on Cauldron and two Hag Queens are must have in any army. 

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Is there any reason to have a hag queen on the cauldron? I can see a purpose to having the slaughter queen and the bloodwrack, but the hag on the cauldron doesn't seem to bring a lot of extra value as opposed to the slaughter queen. 

Side question: how do I bring in a quote? I wanted to quote what Dante said but I can't seem to get it to work.

Edited by Bojigwe
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2 minutes ago, Bojigwe said:

Is there any reason to have a hag queen on the cauldron?

There is if you can't afford both the slaughterqueen on throne and a separate hag. Also, the bigger base size makes it easier to keep things in the buff aura.

3 minutes ago, Bojigwe said:

how do I bring in a quote?

Either you click the little button underneath each post that says 'Quote' or you select the relevant part and then a little button with 'Quote selection' appears next to it.

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2 hours ago, Bojigwe said:

Is there any reason to have a hag queen on the cauldron? I can see a purpose to having the slaughter queen and the bloodwrack, but the hag on the cauldron doesn't seem to bring a lot of extra value as opposed to the slaughter queen. 

Side question: how do I bring in a quote? I wanted to quote what Dante said but I can't seem to get it to work.

Yes there is in any Snake heavy army when you want Medusa as your general Hag Queen on Cauldron is much better and cheaper option then Slaughter Queen. Otherwise SQ is better.

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If you're worried about receiving attacks then take as many bucklers as you can on your witches/sisters of slaughter (if you're taking them of course). Whilst you're going to want to get into combat fast, making them hurt for hitting you is a good way to challenge their feeling of power by them having a whole turn attacking first. The other aspect is to get into combat as fast as you can; you might even hold back or screen a unit of witches with twinblades so that they might well end up in combat, but against something weaker in turn 3 so that come turn 4 they can be ready to do some real damage again - or at least dodge most of it in turn 3. 

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If I can piggy on the topic (as it may be related), I was thinking of a block of 30 WE's with bucklers, but for any remaining WE's/SoS am I better off with shields or extra daggers? In a perfect world I'd have one anvil and a couple of hammers, but I don't always get the option. 

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Currently building my two army boxes. 

But I am unsure how to build the Melusai. The 2 boxes have the option for both. Now my question is: should I build 10 Sisters or 5 Sisters and 5 Stalkers. 

My thoughts are

10 Sisters are better on the table than 5, especially when I don't have more than one squad. 

Stalkers seem to be too expensive for their abilitys, according to the post in this topic. But I like the models as well. 

 

So...options are

1. 10 Sisters right now (and add a squad of Stalkers at a later point of time) 

2. 5 Sisters and 5 Stalkers

 

Do we need shooting? Is it worth in general outside of SCE? 

Edited by Xil
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Stalkers are possibly the weakest link in the DoK army roster. That doesn't mean they are outright bad, just that they are not as good as many other options. The problem with them is that they are a ranged unit that is better in close combat than at range. Their ideal is to be a skirmisher, able to move forward whilst firing and then also able to repel a counterattack or get stuck into combat. The thing is so many units in DoK move fast enough that there's less need for a ranged dedicated unit because before long the close combat ones are in combat already and dishing out large amounts of damage. 

There's no harm in taking them, but if you want the "best" choice then go for 10 Sisters. They are tough, fast and a unit of 10 is more durable and able to dish out some serious pain to the enemy. 

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So I won my local Path to Glory with a Melusai-heavy list, such that the only time I ever lost was against an illegal list. It’s to the point where, unless I’m facing a really highly-tuned list, I just win. Is there  some way that I can make a usable casual list that doesn’t feel like bringing a Deathsword to a knife fight? I’m already using minimal witch aelves, and just kind of riding the Hag wave, but I feel like a bully playing most of the casual players st my FLGS and just sticking them in a blender of knives and snakes. Granted, Path is absurdly unbalanced, but I’ve had similar experiences in Matched play (if not worse, because more witches are harder to avoid? Should I just accept that Daughters have no chill and find a different army?

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