AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Selpharia]

Why are Heartrenders better than Lifetakers? Even at rend -2, they’ll struggle to kill anything with their low number of shots. But then, maybe I’m overestimating the value of D:2 on the charge for Lifetakers, which seems like it might chew through horde blobs pretty well

[Lucentia]

You generally don't take Heartrenders for damage, though they can snipe a few wounds of key targets sometimes, and -2 rend is not too common in a DoK list depending on where your Mindrazor is at.  They are more useful for swooping onto objectives, deploying onto the board as temporary screens or to deny enemy movement options, which the Heartrenders can do better due to their ability to potentially move after shooting.

Of course if you're looking purely for damage then Lifetakers will serve better, except they have to get into melee range to do so, and Witch Aelves will deal more damage than either option in that case.

[Overread]

However it does give you some close combat damage that you can deploy to the table where you need it. You won't likely charge them in alone unless its agianst something like artillery units or otherwise weak close combat ones; but if you've got witch aelves already in combat then swooping in khinerai can be a help in finishing off the enemy

 

Basically khinerai are fragile, but they offer you high mobility reactionary forces that you can put to use as the battle evolves 

[Lucentia]

True enough, I also like them as a first-wave assault unit that can kill off screening units so that harder hitting stuff can strike more important targets.  And their after-melee bounce move can be very handy to prevent them taking casualities in return, or just as a part of general movement shenanigans.

[Selpharia]

Oh, I see! The idea is that you have them drop 9” out, but then potentially use the post-shoot moving to get in close enough to contest even an objective that the enemy is using that 9” deep strike bubble to ward, is that it?

[Aaron Schmidt]

I started experimenting with 3x 5 HR & 1x 15 LT after 1x 5, 1x 10 of each wasn’t working. HR are a screen, hassle unit who can get a few wounds out there (heart piercer shields do a lot of that) and the LT are more of a shock assault unit.

[DantePQ]

I even tried 20 Lifetakers few times but they didn't work too well, 

I guess they could work in 10 strong units, as it gives them 20 Attacks with 2dmg every time they charge and thanks to their ability it put your opponent under more pressure with choice which unit to activate first, and for 160 you're not forced to deploy them near Hag Queen as with 4+ to wound they really need those re-rolls in big 20 strong units. 

I was thinking about an army with Sisters of Slaughter, Lifetakers and maybe even Khailebron to really mess up with avtivations but I have so much fun with my Snakes-heavy army that I don't have much time for this  

Heartrenders are much better objective takers as they can swoop, shoot, extra move, charge with -2 and -1 rend.  

[Overread]

I think big groups can work well, but they require careful use and might even vary a lot depending on terrain. If your boards are often very tightly packed with terrain then larger groups run a risk that potential deployment areas are limited which can limit their usefulness. Whilst if your board is often far more open then there's more potential places to put them where you want/need them. 

Smaller groups can move around more easily and are thus more likely to get their full move and retreat move; and also get everything into combat when they hit. 

[DantePQ]

Yep maybe but unlike Blood Sisters not to mention Witch Aelves and Sisters of Slaughter you can't really get more then 10 Lifetakers into combat (and even 10 could be tricky) that's why units of 15-20 are tricky and really need buffs. 

It's an alpha strike list build around Lifetakers I've made

Draichi Ganeth

Morathi + Withering 

Bloodwrack Medusa + Shadow Stone + Mindrazor 

3xHag Queen (Martyr's Sacrifice, Catechism of Murder, Sacrament of Blood) 

2x30 Witch Aelves (one unit with extra knives, one with bucklers)

10 Witch Aelves

2x10 Lifetakers 

Cauldron Guard

Chronomatic Cogs 

even without Cogs you can easily bring 3 units into combat turn one, with Cogs you can drop extra 2 blobs of  Witch Aelves easily, just cast Martyr's Sacrifice on unit with double knives, so even if opponent will activate unit fighting with them with Marty's Sacrifice and even 10 left they could decimate him. All of those units with +1 to hit 

Also you can easily swap some Witches and  10 Lifetakers for Blood Sisters who are quite awesome with Cogs with 10MV and +2 to charge, 3+ MWs and then hitting on 2+  

Morathi with +1 to hit and re-rolls of wound and possible Mindrazor could decimate almost anything. 

Edited February 10, 2019 by DantePQ

[Shadow27]

Has anyone tried the Shadowhammer battalion it looks cool to me but I was wondering if it's at all viable? 

[DantePQ]

32 minutes ago, Shadow27 said:

Has anyone tried the Shadowhammer battalion it looks cool to me but I was wondering if it's at all viable? 

It is not. 

[whispersofblood]

Looks like DoK took a hammering at LVO, anyone have some thoughts?

Edited February 11, 2019 by whispersofblood
Autocorrect

[Mcprowlington]

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Looks like DoK took a hammering at LVO, anyone have some thoughts?

there were only 6 lists and most of them seemed rather noncompetitive. As though they were purposely using low model count, high point cost units to reach the point requirement so they could play in the tournament and didnt care about winning all that much.

[Shadow27]

20 hours ago, DantePQ said:

It is not. 

Could you explain why: the ability seems really strong?

[Overread]

Honestly I'd wager many just haven't used the Stormcast DoK Battalion in battles to really have given it much of a trial run. It's main weakness is the same as Morathi's Battalion in that its very expensive for a game where most are going to be 2K points - and that's when using minimum models per unit (which often means many are under performing/not at their best and that's before taking one or two turns of casualties). 

To my eye its a battalion put in there for flavour and as an option for very big games, but not one one expects to use in 20K point games (note I've not added up the points and it could come out to above 2K points)

[Shadow27]

9 minutes ago, Overread said:

Honestly I'd wager many just haven't used the Stormcast DoK Battalion in battles to really have given it much of a trial run. It's main weakness is the same as Morathi's Battalion in that its very expensive for a game where most are going to be 2K points - and that's when using minimum models per unit (which often means many are under performing/not at their best and that's before taking one or two turns of casualties). 

To my eye its a battalion put in there for flavour and as an option for very big games, but not one one expects to use in 20K point games (note I've not added up the points and it could come out to above 2K points)

Ok, that's fair. For reference, this is the list I was looking at, thoughts?

 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
- Trait: Devoted Desciples 
- Artefact: Shadow Stone 
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (60)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet 
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Slaughter Queen (100)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder

Battleline
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammers

Units
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
10 x Blood Stalkers (320)
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (100)

Battalions
Shadowhammer Compact (170)

Endless Spells
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 144

[Kramer]

On 2/10/2019 at 4:37 PM, Selpharia said:

Oh, I see! The idea is that you have them drop 9” out, but then potentially use the post-shoot moving to get in close enough to contest even an objective that the enemy is using that 9” deep strike bubble to ward, is that it?

Yes! And if needs must an easier charge roll  

[DantePQ]

I've used Shadowhammer battalion quite few times, but it forces to take a lt of subpar units like Blood Stalkers, Slaughter Queen on foot, Judicators, Liberators etc. 

 

[Mutter]

What I hate most about that battalion is the recycling of 40k names ...

[InSaint]

Strategy aside, can anyone share your experiences or tips on getting through the paint job for 70 Witches/SoS while maintaining sanity? 😂

Unlike Nighthaunts where you can easily airbush the cloak, I need to spend considerable effort painting the skin, fabric and armor. GWS provided a great tutorial but repeating this is wearing me down. Usually painting is therapeutic but this has become torture. 

[Lucentia]

I tend to batch paint them in blocks of 5-10 at a time, depending on how pressed for time I am.  I do all the skin first, you can use different skin tones to help break up the monotony! Then all the fabric bits, then metals, basically work from the largest areas to smallest.  The real killer for me is the Witch Aelf hair, which is both a large surface area over 30 minis and quite fiddly to boot.  You can speed it up with a wash+drybrush (in which case do the hair first) but I don't much like how that looks normally, I'm not very good at drybrushing!

I would probably advise not trying to do all 70 at once, do them in 10s and break up each batch with painting something else for a bit.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Lucentia

[Thomas Lyons]

23 hours ago, Shadow27 said:

Ok, that's fair. For reference, this is the list I was looking at, thoughts?

 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
- Trait: Devoted Desciples 
- Artefact: Shadow Stone 
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (60)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet 
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Slaughter Queen (100)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder

Battleline
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammers

Units
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
10 x Blood Stalkers (320)
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (100)

Battalions
Shadowhammer Compact (170)

Endless Spells
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 144

The problem is that, as per the FAQ below, that list is illegal as those liberators don't count as battleline. 

[Kaleun]

Hi Guys,

in this post I would like to discuss with you how the Blood Sisters do, compared to the Executioners of the allied faction Darkling Covens. I have prepared a table for your much valued view:

In the table you find a comparison of the basic stats of offensive and defensive capabilities.

Comments on the Blood Sisters:

.) degrade after the second received wound
.) Can be maxed out further to 40 wounds (480 points) compared to the 30 wounds of the Executioners (420 points)
.) Supported with very good DoK Allegiance abilities and buff capabilities
.) Good Movement

Comments on the Executioners:

.) Standard Bearer (+1 Bravery/+2 Bravery if close to Darkling hero) -> Bravery 8
.) Medium class access to Buffs
.) Drummer (Reroll single die for the charge roll)
.) Better Save

Interpretation:

In my personal opinion the numbers of the Executioners are astonishing! The slighly more expensive Executioners put out a huge load of Mortal wounds and seem to be great allies for a DoK army that wishes to have bigger numbers on the Mortal Wound counter per round of combat. However the Snake Ladies offer also a lot, because they are actually open for the allegiance abilities and buffs of the daughters of Khaine which are great. The extra 2 inches more movement are also quite good in a game that is decided in the Movement Phase.

What do you think? Would you include a 20 man unit of Executioners (for 320 points) in your 2000 point DoK roster?

Edited February 15, 2019 by Kaleun

[Mutter]

18 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

Would you include a 20 man unit of Executioners (for 320 points) in your 2000 point DoK roster?

I wouldn't, and the answer is actually already there:

19 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

because they are actually open for the allegiance abilities and buffs of the daughters of Khaine which are great.

DoK are basically made by all the synergies. I see no reason to water that down.

[Overread]

DoK are all about fragile speed, but they often lack staying power. If the enemy gets the charge on them then whilst bucklers might deal back mortal wounds it puts them on a distinct disadvantage. DoK also don't have much reliable mortal wound nor high rending delivery; yes they've got both but mortal wounds are tied mostly to bucklers and rending to spell buffs. An opponent who knows the army well is going to snipe for those leaders if they can and shut down those synergies. Or tangle them with something like spell shackles. 

Executioners give DoK a unit that operates outside of the synergies and thus can benefit from many and be better, but which can also deliver a nasty punch all on their own without support. I think they could have a decent place in an army if used correctly; esp against opponents that might be rather like stormcast - ergo fewer models but a lot of good armour saves and higher wound counts. An ideal target for more mortal wounds as opposed to, say, an army like skaven heavy on clanrats where the higher attacks of Witches would be of benefit.