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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

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2 hours ago, Lucentia said:

Is that one squad of 30 witches doing the classic Relocation Orb zig-zag up front there?  Although Daughters are probably the premiere melee army in the game I have found you do have to be careful not to deploy/move into a position where your blender units can be locked down, and in your scenario above it looks like the VLoZD can tag a small portion of the screening unit and also get in 3" of the other big Witch unit behind the first? (Though obviously that's just eyeballing it) where the first unit will not have enough models in range to chip through a 3+ re-rolling 1s save, and the second unit will be stuck behind the first unit.  Then if the second VLoZD reaches the other side of the screening witch squad they'll get stuck and your whole army will get snarled up in a grindy combat (couple that with any debuffs to make things take longer, as you rightly said).  You can get similar scenarios against buffed Frostheart Phoenix (Which combine good saves and debuffs in one fast moving package!), Stardrakes (A save stat which Witches will not be able to chew through, and it can use its chomp attacks to potentially kill half your unit via coherency removal) and sometimes stuff like Plaguebearers.  Anything that leaves you stuck in place for more than a turn is going to be costly for Daughters I find.

I'm not particularly good at avoiding this myself!  I never have enough screening elements to block properly, and I', bad at deployment anyway.  Sometimes it's just a case of knowing when to retreat one or more of the pinned units, reversing the situation for a turn or two by leaving their bruiser units stuck fighting your defensive Hagg Nar screen whilst you go score objectives until you're in a position to strike back.  Slaughter Troupe can help with this, though then you'd need more Sisters of Slaughter over Witches.

The way to avoid this is to not field 2x30 Witches... Next time try this configuration instead, it is worth sacrificing the full squad bonus.

  1. 20 Witches w Bucklers  - Main Anvil
  2. 20 Witches w Bucklers - Back-up Anvil
  3. 10 Witches w Dual Dagger - Hammer 1
  4. 10 Witches w Dual Dagger - Hammer 2

OR

  1. 30 Witches w Bucklers  - Main Anvil
  2. 10 Witches w Bucklers  - Screening
  3. 10 Witches w Dual Dagger - Hammer 1
  4. 10 Witches w Dual Dagger - Hammer 2

How does this works?

  1. Very rarely have I seen 30 Witches getting wiped out in a single turn unless your opponent decides to vomit everything at them. 20 seems to be the magical number for me and most of the time I have <10 Witches surviving to lock the opponent in close-combat for my hammers to counter-charge.
  2. Witches and Sisters are very mobile. Your hammers can be parked deceptively far away from the anvil to bait your opponent into charging your anvil and respond with a counter charge. Or your anvil can even charge together with your hammer, but remember to activate your hammer first in close-combat.
  3. 10 Witches w Dual Daggers, fully buffed does enough damage to be considered a decent hammer in Turn 1 . You can bring in the Melusai at later turn 2 for the additional kick.
  4. More units also gives you better board control and allows you to conserve units until later turns where the blood rites make them more deadly. Ideally you want to be throwing out a full strength hammer with buffs every turn.

Also Khinerai makes excellent screening units. Wound for point they are costly but their huge ass base sizes can mess up non-flyer movement. And because of their huge base sizes, everyone thinks they are 2 wounds. 🙄

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I would agree with most of that, certainly.  For me the value of the 30-model units is in trailing back to Hag Queens/buff auras whilst still allowing 20-odd models to swing, which lets you extend your threat range and catch out your opponent.  (Plus I'm probably still half caught up in the old DoK rules where Witches got re-rolls to hit at larger sizes!).

I do think there's some merit in a more MSU approach, for sure.

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Posted (edited)

Wanted to get a general consensus to ensure I am playing something correctly.

As we all know, Mindrazor gives a DoK unit an additional -1 rend, plus adds 1 to the damage of the units melee weapons if the DoK unit has higher bravery than the opponents unit. One of the melee weapons Blood Sisters have is their Crystal Touch attack, with on a 4+ inflicts 1 mortal wound. So assuming I hit with one crystal touch attack while buffed with Mindrazor. Would that attack then inflict 2 mortal wounds instead of 1?

Depends if the 1 mortal wound is considered the damage of the attack I suppose.

Edited by DJMoose

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4 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

Wanted to get a general consensus to ensure I am playing something correctly.

As we all know, Mindrazor gives a DoK unit an additional -1 rend, plus adds 1 to the damage of the units melee weapons if the DoK unit has higher bravery than the opponents unit. One of the melee weapons Blood Sisters have is their Crystal Touch attack, with on a 4+ inflicts 1 mortal wound. So assuming I hit with one crystal touch attack while buffed with Mindrazor. Would that attack then inflict 2 mortal wounds instead of 1?

Depends if the 1 mortal wound is considered the damage of the attack I suppose.

No. Mindrazor doesn't affect the Blood Sisters Crystal Touch ability in any way. The Mindrazor spell improves a close combat weapons rend and damage characteristics by one. Crystal Touch has neither, so there is nothing to improve. 

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4 hours ago, InSaint said:

The way to avoid this is to not field 2x30 Witches... Next time try this configuration instead, it is worth sacrificing the full squad bonus.

  1. 20 Witches w Bucklers  - Main Anvil
  2. 20 Witches w Bucklers - Back-up Anvil
  3. 10 Witches w Dual Dagger - Hammer 1
  4. 10 Witches w Dual Dagger - Hammer 2

OR

  1. 30 Witches w Bucklers  - Main Anvil
  2. 10 Witches w Bucklers  - Screening
  3. 10 Witches w Dual Dagger - Hammer 1
  4. 10 Witches w Dual Dagger - Hammer 2

How does this works?

  1. Very rarely have I seen 30 Witches getting wiped out in a single turn unless your opponent decides to vomit everything at them. 20 seems to be the magical number for me and most of the time I have <10 Witches surviving to lock the opponent in close-combat for my hammers to counter-charge.
  2. Witches and Sisters are very mobile. Your hammers can be parked deceptively far away from the anvil to bait your opponent into charging your anvil and respond with a counter charge. Or your anvil can even charge together with your hammer, but remember to activate your hammer first in close-combat.
  3. 10 Witches w Dual Daggers, fully buffed does enough damage to be considered a decent hammer in Turn 1 . You can bring in the Melusai at later turn 2 for the additional kick.
  4. More units also gives you better board control and allows you to conserve units until later turns where the blood rites make them more deadly. Ideally you want to be throwing out a full strength hammer with buffs every turn.

Also Khinerai makes excellent screening units. Wound for point they are costly but their huge ass base sizes can mess up non-flyer movement. And because of their huge base sizes, everyone thinks they are 2 wounds. 🙄

We are talking of different point values there.

Your List 1: 600 Points (20+20+10+10)
Your List 2: 570 Points (30+10+10+10)

Use 2x30 Witches: 540 Points.  There lies the biggest reason to go for maxed unit sizes. You save points compared to your enemy which gives you an edge over your opponent. Personally I see 2x5 Khinerai very useful for screening purposes. So overall my opinion goes against MSU and more to big units which are easier to buff up.

Reference to my opinion are the trounament results of last years tournament:

https://aosshorts.com/age-of-sigmar-grand-tournament-final-report/

Please note that Ben Savva took first placement with 30 SoS and 30 Witches. 10 Additional Witches and 2x5 Heartrenders for screening and Obj. Grabbing purposes.

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13 hours ago, Kaleun said:

Please note that Ben Savva took first placement with 30 SoS and 30 Witches. 10 Additional Witches and 2x5 Heartrenders for screening and Obj. Grabbing purposes.

I believe it was 30 Sisters with bucklers, 30 Witches with knives, 10 Sisters with knives. Which seems against a lot of the mathematical advice I see, however it's a load out that I think is very effectively in a battlefield situation.

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As a competitive player myself, there is little sense not to go for max out Witches/Sisters of Slaughter. I nw Ben Saava list and it's rock solid I've played with similar list but with more Hag Queens , I've used 20 Witches units few times - when I was playtesting Draichi Ganeth lists and only because of I couldn't fit 30 of them. 

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1 hour ago, Bazakahuna said:

I believe it was 30 Sisters with bucklers, 30 Witches with knives, 10 Sisters with knives. Which seems against a lot of the mathematical advice I see, however it's a load out that I think is very effectively in a battlefield situation.

agreed :-)

image.png.b9859f8f4dba04e130350dd22d18934f.png

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, DantePQ said:

As a competitive player myself, there is little sense not to go for max out Witches/Sisters of Slaughter. I nw Ben Saava list and it's rock solid I've played with similar list but with more Hag Queens , I've used 20 Witches units few times - when I was playtesting Draichi Ganeth lists and only because of I couldn't fit 30 of them. 

I run 30 SoS w/ buckler and 30 WE w/ Dual Daggers. It makes the most efficiency sense with the points reduction and for my two Hag Queens'  Witch brew to be active on all 60 models.

Personally, it also helps my horseracing. I tend to plan on the SoS being the unit that takes more damage so they'll dish it back as they widdle down ( Bucklers, Martyr Sacrifice, Mystic Shield) while still hitting great with witchbrew and 6'' pile in of their own and preying for a Kraith proc. While I use the 30WE with their Mindrazor, Witchbrew and Sacrament of Blood as the obscene murder blender they are (and still preying for a Kraith proc)

That said, I'm increasingly seeing that I lose games when my opponent can focus some 1200 pts in one  attack against my 30 witches, hag and Cauldron  ( e.g. Deepkin, Waagh stacks x 9, Beastclaw) and hit me first with it all. 

Don't get me wrong, I also lose to shooting armies in Knife to the Heart and any other ranged damage army with chaff in the way while they shoot me the whole time I'm trying to penetrate chaff. Sylvaneth WinterLeaf,  Tzeentch Pink Horror heavy armies too..

That's all good and OK, asymmetry is what makes competitive games great :D
 

Edited by Jais

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Posted (edited)

The Daughters of Khaine are indeed a glascannon army. We are super strong while attacking, but bad at receiving attacks. I see the wish to field cheap chaff units to get some blockers between that 30 Witch Blob and the enemy hard hitting units. Those Stormcast Birdies could help with that...

40 Corsairs come for 260 points

10 Skinks for 60 points

3 Stormcast Birdies (aka. Aetherwings) cost 50 points (use some old dark elve harpies as proxies...)

Soulsnare Shackles (Endless Spells) come at 20 points

-> those are some ideas to stop the charging enemy in his tracks to open him for counter attacks.

Edited by Kaleun

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Hey guys, this is my first daughters of Khaine model from the new battleforce that I got for Christmas. 

 

5FB176DD-5DE4-4823-A936-C7383768EDC1.jpeg

59F365CE-9AF2-4B7D-8B08-BB3D27F341D3.jpeg

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Nice work - I like that the base is quite grey and muted like the shadow realm! 

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Hello!

Im in desperate need of a 1k and 2k list including temple nest battalion.

Im stuck in the mud...

I have a few ideas but i cant seem too decide what direction i should go!

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55 minutes ago, MeSmashDaNoobs said:

Hello!

Im in desperate need of a 1k and 2k list including temple nest battalion.

Im stuck in the mud...

I have a few ideas but i cant seem too decide what direction i should go!

feel free to post a list for discussion.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Kaleun said:

feel free to post a list for discussion.



Leaders
Hag Queen (60)
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330)
Hag Queen (60)

Battleline
30 x Sisters Of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives

Units
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)

Battalions
Temple Nest (130)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 129
 

The only requirement: Temple Nest

Is this something that could work?

Edited by MeSmashDaNoobs

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On 1/2/2019 at 4:03 AM, Kaleun said:

We are talking of different point values there.

Your List 1: 600 Points (20+20+10+10)
Your List 2: 570 Points (30+10+10+10)

Use 2x30 Witches: 540 Points.  There lies the biggest reason to go for maxed unit sizes. You save points compared to your enemy which gives you an edge over your opponent. Personally I see 2x5 Khinerai very useful for screening purposes. So overall my opinion goes against MSU and more to big units which are easier to buff up.

Reference to my opinion are the trounament results of last years tournament:

https://aosshorts.com/age-of-sigmar-grand-tournament-final-report/

Please note that Ben Savva took first placement with 30 SoS and 30 Witches. 10 Additional Witches and 2x5 Heartrenders for screening and Obj. Grabbing purposes.

Yes you are right here on the 60 points saving which is a huge edge in competitive play. The Slaughter Troupe Battalion also allows for retreat and charging to prevent a combat lock-down.

But honestly, after playing DoK since it was released, I am more into narrative play and experimenting with other temples. Hag Nar is getting really static for me.

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48 minutes ago, MeSmashDaNoobs said:



Leaders
Hag Queen (60)
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330)
Hag Queen (60)

Battleline
30 x Sisters Of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives

Units
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)

Battalions
Temple Nest (130)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 129
 

The only requirement: Temple Nest

Is this something that could work?

Personally I would replace the Slaughter Queen on the shrine with a Bloodwrack Shrine as your general is very important for Hagg Nar or Khaleibron. Maybe see if you can sneak in another 140pts for a unit of 10 Blood Sisters.

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2 hours ago, MeSmashDaNoobs said:



Leaders
Hag Queen (60)
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330)
Hag Queen (60)

Battleline
30 x Sisters Of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives

Units
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)

Battalions
Temple Nest (130)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 129
 

The only requirement: Temple Nest

Is this something that could work?

For a snake list the following video might be interesting for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx3eFEXW7_A

Your list looks good so far. For the 40 left points you can get at least some Geminids or a Pendulum for your Medusa. For improved casting I would drop 1 unit of 5 Blood Stalkers and take a second Medusa if you have the model. For the 60 free points you can get the Chronomatic cogs which make your charges that much easier.

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Hey.

So my first 2000pts list I'm aiming for., that isnt snake list.

Temple: Hagg Nar
LEADERS
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330)

- General
- Command Trait : Devoted Desciples
- Artefact : Iron Circlet
- Prayer : Blessing of Khaine
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Catechism of Murder
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- Artefact : Shadow Stone
- Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows : The Withering
UNITS
30 x Witch
Aelves (270)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
20 x Sisters Of Slaughter (240)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)

BATTALIONS
Cauldron Guard (120)

What do people reckon of this as a starting list?

I'm also thinking of a similar list but with Draichi Ganeth and Slaughter Troupe.  Drop the Witches with shields for 10 Sisters and throw in a Hag Queen, swap the lifetakers for Heartrenders and thrown in an extra hag Queen. The issue with this second list is it's a pretty complicated list to start playing with. 

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Hi everyone. 

I'm back on teh Daughters for a while and played a fun MSU list tonight. 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron

Leaders
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows: Pit of Shades
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Trait: Mistress of Illusion  
- Artefact: Shadow Stone  
- Lore of Shadows: Mirror Dance
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- Lore of Shadows: Steed of Shadows
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder

Battleline
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
10 x Witch Aelves (100)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Witch Aelves (100)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

Units
10 x Doomfire Warlocks (320)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)

Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000

The basic plan is to have a bunch of options for spells early on.  I can deploy deep and take 1st or 2nd turn and still be able to put a threat out anywhere on the table.  Khalibron move to get magic in range, Mirror dance to get Morathi up there too and get Line of sight to juicy targets.  Steed of shadows on the Medusa for shooting opportunities.  

The list seems to have a bunch of options and is flexible but its quite a glass hammer.  

I'm looking for thoughts on:
 

Warlocks 10 vs 2x5.  The 10 is very powerful early game, especially when its protected and moved up with Mistress of Illusion ability.  Dropping a unit in where it can't be unbound and can dish out 6 mortals is great.  If arcane is on the table +2 makes it tough to unbind. 

Blood Sisters 10 vs 2x5.  first game with 10 tonight.  Buffs make them very good.  I might be able to squeeze 3x5 in the list with some tweaks 

Spell Selection. I think I have it right.  not dead sure.  Pit on Morathi just for extra damage output

Prayer selection.  Seems t ehobvious one with the blood sisters.  Turns my 1 combat unit into a massive hammer

 

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I would agree with Catechism as the obvious prayer choice, extremely juicy on the Blood Sisters for kicking out a surprising volume of mortals and catching people off guard.

I'm still not sold on Mirrordance, it seems like something you're only going to be able to pull off at the start of the game by specifically deploying for it, but with Morathi built for kicking out mortals like that it could potentially be a strong play.  I do wanna try and mess around with the spell some more and see what it can do.

Any particular function in mind for the Blood Stalkers, just general harassing?

Seems like it might struggle against anything with decent mortal wound protection, but it could be a tricksy enough list to win out on movement options and objectives, I've never been good enough at that aspect of the game to comment!

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Hello everyone. Meanwhile, I apologize for how I write, English is not my language.
I look for tips for a 1000 pt of daugheter list to take to a tournament.
In this tournament we will be 10 players, scenarios will be:escalation core book, starstrike gh, total commitment gb.

i have christhmas battleforce  new to paste plus 2 hag queen, slaugheter queen, 50 old  witch aelves, Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood and 10 Doomfire Warlocks.

thanks for every comment.

i really need help. 

 

Edited by gelt

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On 1/11/2019 at 1:24 AM, Lucentia said:

I'm still not sold on Mirrordance, it seems like something you're only going to be able to pull off at the start of the game by specifically deploying for it, but with Morathi built for kicking out mortals like that it could potentially be a strong play.  I do wanna try and mess around with the spell some more and see what it can do.

You may combo Mirrordance with Temple: Khailebron - Mistress of Illusion "deepstike" ability.

The idea is to deepstike an initial hero and swap it out the the desired hero so that the hero can move closer. This allows you to move into great position and almost guarantee a charge. Especially entertaining to catapult a 220pts Bloodwrack Shrine on turn 1 to assassinate backline fragile hero, decimate an entire mass with bloodwrack stare or even just lock up deadly range units. 

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With a little help, I have the all snake list I'm going to build.

Medusa on Shrine: General

-Thousand Blessings

-Mind Razor

2x Hag 

- Blessings of Khaine

2x Hag

- Blood Sac

3x 20 Blood Sisters

5 Khinaries

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I'm thinking about picking up DoK, however, I keep hearing people say they're op. Is there a way that I can make a toned down army list? I'm thinking about getting the battleforce box. In addition, I want to bring in dark elf allies for a more fluffy list, but won't have the money to do that until down the road. 

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