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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

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I've got 10 of each and half of me is wondering if I can find some terrain I can stick them too now to give them a bit more support. they are a fine example of GW really showing off, but also not being all that practical with the design material for a model that has to survive actual use. Great models but yeah a bit more base would not have hurt them in the least. 

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Haha, they are for sure very dynamic and impressive models, but perhaps not ideal for gaming pieces.  You could probably chop a pack of Azyrite Ruins into enough fallen walls and a pillars to have a bunch of Khinerai perching on, or else I'm sure someone on the internet produces a set of more greco-roman styled pillar scenery pieces or what have you.  Failing that there's always the old stand by of just drilling some support wire between model and base.

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On 10/25/2018 at 9:08 AM, Hankster said:

For all you DoK players thinking about what to do next @Thomas Lyons over at Warhammer Weekly has some ideas for you. Hint it involves one of the two least used units in the DoK. 

 

Any chance you could summarize? 

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They're just speculating that Lifetakers could see more use in a situation where the current Witch-heavy meta is altered, as well as pointing out their potential value as a tactical tool even with the book as it is now.  Which I don't disagree with, they're just overshadowed by Witch Aelves in most situations at present.  But you can put the same set of buffs on Lifetakers as you would on Witches and they're still fairly dangerous, less attacks but a potential damage 3 on the charge, with a high flying movement they can hit around screens, plus the 6" bounce move after they've made their attacks can be a real thorn in your opponents side.

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5 hours ago, zedatkinszed said:

Colin Cochrane who won Facehammer with a DOK list is interview in this podcast from Hero Phase:

http://theherophase.libsyn.com/the-hero-phase-episode-6

Yeah, Colin's build is super powerful. The issue with it is that it's optimized for the current rules (90 witches, 2 or 3 Hags, and Hagg Nar). It relies on everything likely to be nerfed. 

Edited by Hankster

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On 10/27/2018 at 8:53 PM, Hankster said:

Yeah, Colin's build is super powerful. The issue with it is that it's optimized for the current rules (90 witches, 2 or 3 Hags, and Hagg Nar). It relies on everything likely to be nerfed. 

Totally and it's not my taste in a list personally but it's still interesting to hear him talk it through.

Edited by zedatkinszed

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42 minutes ago, InSaint said:

Rumour has it that we are getting a Battleforce this Christmas! 

I hope so! I would start a DoK army if it happens.

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On 10/27/2018 at 9:53 PM, Hankster said:

Yeah, Colin's build is super powerful. The issue with it is that it's optimized for the current rules (90 witches, 2 or 3 Hags, and Hagg Nar). It relies on everything likely to be nerfed. 

Okay... so it would be better for me to build a army not based on it’s strong points? Because it might get a bit more balance relative to other armies in 8+ months time? 

#justaskingforafriend ;) 

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3 hours ago, Kramer said:

Okay... so it would be better for me to build a army not based on it’s strong points? Because it might get a bit more balance relative to other armies in 8+ months time? 

#justaskingforafriend ;) 

I think the FAQ is likely to come out before that. ...but you never know.

I'd say blocks of 30 witches will be strong even if their points increase or if Hags point increase. You may not want to go all in on Hagg Nar with two cauldrons though.  I would suggest one slaughter queen cauldron, one or two hags, one 30 block of witches, then a couple smaller units of sisters as they have synergies with other temples, and then Morathi,  a mix of blood sisters, Khinaries, and maybe some Doomfires. They are quality units, if slightly less efficient. They will also give you more tactical flexibility and set you up to use a different temple if Hagg Nar get's nerfed into oblivion.

I wouldn't avoid the DoK due to a possible nerf. Unless it's a massive overreaction, they're still going to be very good. They have a lot of very solid combat units and a lot of synergy that probably isn't going anywhere.  

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When can we expect the announcement of the Battleforce box?

My girlfriend offered me a Blood Coven for my birthday, so I'm starting a little force of DoK, but I'd rather avoid buying 200 pounds worth of miniatures if I can have a good deal a month later.

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Mid-November is usually when battleforces are announced by. One AoS battleforce (it's Deepkin) has already been revealed, the other three or four won't be far behind.

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19 hours ago, Hankster said:

I think the FAQ is likely to come out before that. ...but you never know.

 

I lately wrote to GW with Feedback and they replied that AoS FAQ is due in January.

hopefully they make it an internal balance FAQ which fixes ID, SCE, DC, OS, SP, Disspos etc.

Edited by JackStreicher
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One bonus of DoK is that even if GW adjusts (not nerfs) some of the units, the range is small and tight enough that its unlikely to lead to a vast change in composition validity. So 90 Witches will still be viable, just not overwhelmingly powerful. This means you've far less chance of your army being invalidated and its far safer to build what you want (more or less). Other armies where there are multiple troop types of very varying stats can have more of a swing effect whereby an adjustment to balance takes a unit from a must-have en-mass to a nice unit but compliments other things. 

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2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I lately wrote to GW with Feedback and they replied that AoS FAQ is due in January.

hopefully they make it an internal balance FAQ which fixes ID, SCE, DC, OS, SP, Disspos etc.

Thanks for the update!

Edited by Hankster

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I think the best way to nerf DoK is to 

- change HagNarr 5++ to re-rolls of 6++

- increase Hags to 80pts 

- drop horde reduction for Witches. 

HaggNarr change alone will do the trick 

Also maybe drop Blood Stalkers to 100 pts for 5 and make them Battleline with Morathi as general won't chanee their usability much but maybe they will see some play in some lists. 

It will make HaggNarr still playable because extra survivability is always nice and hit re rolls are good but will kill any 5++ units with rerolls of 5++.

 

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The Warhammer Weekly episode linked earlier actually featured a pretty elegant fix for Hagg Nar, which was to remove Blessing of Khaine, the Hagg Nar 5++ by itself is not necessarily problematic, it's when it is coupled with the Blessing re-roll that it gets noteworthy.  (Blessing of Khaine is a prayer you only really see in Hagg Nar lists for this reason I think).  Swap Blessing of Khaine for something more offensively orientated as befits the army style, or maybe make it a +1 to Fanatical Faith rolls on one unit for a less impactful defensive bonus, and you bring Hagg Nar more in line with Khailebron and Draichi Ganeth.

Blood Stalkers I do not have a quick fix for, shame cos they're great models, but even at 100 for 5 I'd be hard pressed to include them in most lists, I don't really know what would work to make them more enticing.  Two shots a piece at 140pts would make them a more valuable shooting unit, I suppose.

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Maybe the problem with Blood Stalkers is two fold.

1) They are skirmishers who are stuck between ranged and close combat in a close combat heavy army; whilst not really shining at either. Which makes most want to make them stronger at ranged attacks so that they fit into something new in the army.

2) The fact that they are the only main deployment ranged unit that is closer to "dedicated". Avatars and Cauldrons can do ranged, as can mages, but both those groups are only really shooting as they advance into close combat. Daughters have no hold-back and shoot units which, if they did have them, could give Blood Stalkers somewhere to fit into. A ranged unit that wants to and can hold back to help protect ranged units from sneak attacks. 

In fact they might be stronger as allies for other factions within the Alliance grouping rather than as pure Daughters units. A fact that is under-represented at present due to the fact that there's only Idoneth and Daughters who are fleshed out with a battle tome and major popularity. 

Edited by Overread
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I know what the FAQ says, but Morathi's command ability clearly states that they can shoot "as if it were the shooting phase", which to me means they should get their mortal wound ability if they shoot this way via the hero phase. If GW were to just simply clarify that ruling on the side of allowing the blood stalkers to do this, it would open up that combination of commander and unit to be an interesting choice in games. I also agree that if Morathi is your general, you should be able to take melusai as troops. That seems like a very strange oversight to me.

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2 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

I know what the FAQ says, but Morathi's command ability clearly states that they can shoot "as if it were the shooting phase", which to me means they should get their mortal wound ability if they shoot this way via the hero phase. If GW were to just simply clarify that ruling on the side of allowing the blood stalkers to do this, it would open up that combination of commander and unit to be an interesting choice in games. I also agree that if Morathi is your general, you should be able to take melusai as troops. That seems like a very strange oversight to me.

Its not an oversight. Its on purpose. Special characters almost never unlock Battleline options. So that people that dont like named characters can still have the full experience. 

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28 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

Its not an oversight. Its on purpose. Special characters almost never unlock Battleline options. So that people that dont like named characters can still have the full experience. 

Yeah but doesn’t Volturnos allow you to take an all eel army? I don’t see a difference in those two situations from the standpoint of your logic. 

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9 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

Yeah but doesn’t Volturnos allow you to take an all eel army? I don’t see a difference in those two situations from the standpoint of your logic. 

The difference is, its not: "You must take Volturnos to unlock this unit". You can take the generic Ahkelian King version and it works all the same. But there is no generic Morathi.

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SO, I'm normally a square baser, but my friend is dipping his toes into AoS, so I'm taking the plunge with him. DoK was really the first army that spoke to me through the various AoS releases, especially the "Snake Ladies," so I'm looking at building a Temple Nest list around that, just looking for a little C&C.

Temple: Khailebron

Bloodwrach Shrine (220)
-General
-Mistress of Illusion
-Thousand and One Dark Blessings

Hag Queen (60)
Hag Queen (60)

10 Blood Sisters (280)
10 Blood Sisters (280)
10 Blood Sisters (280)

5 Blood Stalkers (160)
5 Blood Stalkers (160)

War Hydra (180)

-Order Serpentis Allies

War Hydra (180)
-Order Serpentis Allies

Battalion: Temple Nest (130)

Still need to figure out my 2nd artifact / prayers for the Hags. The ~370 odd points at the end are a bit of a flex spot. I put in the War Hydras because they seemed like a couple of good, beefy monsters that fit the snake theme, but I'm not married to the idea, and could see myself taking  a coupe of 10 packs of Heartrenders / Lifetakers, or maybe even a couple of Avatars of Khaine. I considered squeezing in Morathi, who is totally Snake Lady, personified, but would have to give up a bunch of bodies (5 Blood Sisters + a Hag)… lots of choices to mull over!

 

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