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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

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On 10/1/2018 at 11:14 AM, Overread said:

One thing to keep in mind is that whilst Hag Queens are great as a support model, they are not "as" great on their own. When people use them they are using them primarily as a support unit for other models rather than running them alone into blocks of enemy infantry. So that might be one reason why and adjustment might be slight rather than wholesale - they do a lot, but then again they require another few hundred points of models in order to provide that support to a target. 

Another aspect is that a lot of Daughter's units are already quite expensive in points, barring the witches and hag queen, a lot of the rest are quite expensive. Doomfires, Cauldrons and snakes are all rather on the expensive side; khinerai are also rather expensive for such a fragile unit. So when one takes into account the pricing not just of one unit, but the army as a whole, it makes sense that there are a few viable cheaper options for Daughters to have access too. 

I think in the end the real question is if hags and witches is a powerful combo or a brokenly powerful combo. I'd wager its sort of sitting in the middle of the two - its strong, but its not horrifically brokenly strong. 

Meh. Every single hero of the game have the same "problem" as the hag queen, being a support model that isn't great on its own (most of not all the non-support heroes are either extremely bad or very expensive for what they do), except that the hag queen is cheaper than everyone while being the best.

Compare her to a warchanter, a lord relictor, a soulscryer,  a spirit torment or guardian of souls, even a khemist (who is 160 POINTS). And i'm talking of very good supports models here, who are all either far weaker than her or as good but cost twice as much.

Or even a runesmiter, who is quite similar, giving reroll wound to a unit and a very useful ability (deepstrike)... except he doesn't have any prayer and cost TWICE AS MUCH AS THE HAG QUEEN. Even at 120 pts, she would be better than him, and she is 60.

Same for the other units. Khinerai are cheaper than equivalent units like prosecutors and way better, doomfires warlocks are the only wizard unit at 160 pts (compare to pink horrors or sister of the thorn), etc, etc... and those are the "worst" DOK units. They aren't even bad, but  slightly above average

No matter how you think about it or try to show it, the hag queen IS criminaly undercosted

Edited by ledha
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So, I've been a DoK player for about 6 months now, and it's a great way to get that Dark Elf feel again.  Been playing AoS since it was launched though.

A big tournament is quickly approaching and I need to get my list stabilized. For some strange reason, the organizer insisted it was to be 1500 pts (3 battlelines) only, which is a shame since I already had good success with a 2K list. It will be based around randomly generated scenarios from the last 6 in the GHB (3 places of arcane power, relocating orb, etc), and it will have no realms of magic items or spells (which are considered unbalancing).

My gaming area is mostly Death/Nighthaunt heavy, with some Seraphon, Chaos (Nurgle and Tzeentch mostly), Sylvaneth and Stormcast players also. I'm about the only guy using DoK. This means I see a lot of summoning, magic and hard hitting units, and a lot of mobility. Double dragon Sacrament lists, Nagash and friends lists, GUO immortal lists, Tzeentch magic heavy lists, etc.

Now, I've been really struggling to find the right balance on this list. I'm fairly confident I want/have to have 2 hags minimum and 3 units of witches (I think they're overall better than SoS, so I own about 90 witches but only 10 SoS). Most of my witches are equipped with knifes, unfortunately.

The rest of the list can vary wildly depending on which temple I choose and whether or not I include Morathi. Morathi has been, to my experience, the only real threat to things like Vhordrai or GUO's, and even Nagash, that tend to hide behind a gazilion conga-line expendable troops, handing out buffs and debuffs and reliably capturing and holding objectives (especially in the two scenarios that favour Wizards). However, it is also eating away points in such a way that the rest of the list becomes fairly slow  (especially with Hagg Nar) when it comes to adapting to moving or changing objectives (as now seems to be the norm in most of these scenarios). If I want to include a cauldron, for example, I'm quickly running out of points! On the other hand, if I go for Khailebron, I lose a lot of staying power against stuff that is more mobile than me (double dragon, etc), especially If I don't get Morathi.

I'm putting an example of three possible lists with and without Morathi (Hagg Nar), so you can provide feedback. I really need some feedback or else I'll go mad :| I currently own most of the DoK range: 1 cauldron, 1 shrine, 1 medusa on foot, 3 hags, 1 slaughter queen on foot, 1 morathi, about 90 witches, 10 SoS, 10 Blood Sisters and 10 Blood Stalkers, 1 Avatar on foot, 10 warlocks and 10 heartrenders.

List 1 is based on the toughest characters we've got. It's meant to be resistent and hold objectives and to play with the Hero's with items and wizards scenario bonuses.

List 2 is based on magic defense/offense (good VS Death and Nurgle) and spamming wizards (incantors, warlocks) for scenario bonuses.

List 3 is based on getting some Idoneth Allies for speed and toughness.

LIST 1 - Hagg Nar - 1500/1500 pts

Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor


Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Devoted Desciples
- Artefact : Amulet of Dark Fire
- Prayer : Crimson Rejuvenation


Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Blessing of Khaine


Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Catechism of Murder


20 x Witch Aelves (200)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives


20 x Witch Aelves (200)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives


20 x Witch Aelves (200)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

LIST 2 - Hagg Nar - 1490/1500 pts

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330)
- General
- Command Trait : Devoted Desciples
- Artefact : Amulet of Dark Fire
- Prayer : Crimson Rejuvenation

Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Blessing of Khaine

Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Catechism of Murder

Knight-Incantor (140)
- Allies

Knight-Incantor (140)
- Allies


20 x Witch Aelves (200)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives


20 x Witch Aelves (200)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives


20 x Witch Aelves (200)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives


5 x Doomfire Warlocks (160)
- Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor

LIST 3 - Hagg Nar - 1490/1500

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330)
- General
- Command Trait : Devoted Desciples
- Artefact : Amulet of Dark Fire
- Prayer : Crimson Rejuvenation


Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Blessing of Khaine


Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer : Catechism of Murder

20 x Witch Aelves (200)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives


20 x Witch Aelves (200)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives


20 x Witch Aelves (200)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives


5 x Doomfire Warlocks (160)
- Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor


6 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (280)

Edited by Columind

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After playing 5 months of Hagg Narr(and not running 90 Witch Aelves) I am really wanting to switch temples so I'm not lost in a sea of DoK players at tournaments. That said, its really a shame that if we try and build efficiently we're ultimately mathing ourselves back into Hagg Narr. It's just so incredibly efficient.

Some thoughts
1) Kraith and Drachi temples overwrite your Slaughter Queen's artefacts. This alone is why I think those two temples can't be as powerful. The objectives based game (esp Places of Arcane Power and Relocating Orb) favor tanky Wizards/Heroes with Artefacts. The plethora of artefacts to enable are inefficiently utilized with a forced offensive artefact by those temples. Kraith's Venom is twice as effective on a Slaughter Queen on foot(Dance of Doom) but with 5HP  it's not smart for any objective based scenario. Drachi's +1 attack artefact for her sword is just awful compared to the hordes of options in DoK book and Malign Sorcery Realms. It really feels like that's why Hagg Narr and Khalibron are more successful, because of flexible and well utilized artefact options that best enable objective based gaming.

2) DoK never really win deployment(by design and that's cool.) So, more often than not we are made to go first and then we're strongly at risk of being double turned. Making Hagg Narr's 5+ shrug bubble so much better than all the other options. Esp if we have the opportunity to buff our army in our first Hero phase before we are double turned.

3) The artefact (+1 to cast and rerolling 1s) is AMAZING and I want to run it but because we're so hurting for objective gaming point scorers. We would be silly to take it as we would be giving up a Cauldron with an artefacts as a point scorer.

4) Missing out on Orgy of Slaughter from  not having a Slaughter Queen as your general is a huge disadvantage. That command ability alone outweighs the value of the Medusa.
 

Thoughts?

Edited by Jais

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In terms of min-maxed tournament performance I'm inclined to agree with you, it's hard to consider stepping away from Hagg Nar's 5++ even before you take the value of the re-rolling hits into account.  Khailebron can do some good stuff with the teleport for sure, but there's always the chance that your opponent is not running much in the way of shooting and you would've been better off with Hagg Nar in terms of defense, and the other two temples are simply not as flexible.

I could see Drachi Ganeth being fun with a snake heavy list, especially if you're not talking a Slaughter Queen at all so you still have the artefact slot open, but, again, you're probably better just rolling Hagg Nar.

Kraith is just not very good in competitive terms, though I'll still run it in casual games and when those clutch 6s do come up it is very entertaining.

I think the SCE book balances things better by making the Stormhosts more of a choice through forcing both command trait and artefact, making it so that even 'no stormhost' is sometimes a better option, it's probably not an intended design of the DoK book that I just assume the Hagg Nar traits as a part of the allegiance abilities cos that's pretty much always what I'm going to be using in a competitive format!

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In good news I've now got a hydra sitting on the table; core of the body is built, I just need to build up time and the guts to chop the necks up to try and attach a cold one head to it! The jaw area is quite thick on the neck, much thicker than a cold one head, so I've got to remove a large lump before attempting to attach. I'll probably use one of the middle heads that splits in two necks, that way if I mess up I can at least fall back on messing around with the alternate neck section for its other form. 

After that I've got 30 Witch Aelves sitting in a pile of bits ready to slowly be made into more sisters. 

And I've finally found a blood cauldron cauldron bit so I can now start working on my converted  Blood Cauldron. 

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I've done some maths and updated the Witches and Sisters thread, including the difference between taking bucklers or an extra blade. 

https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/18324-daughters-of-khaine-witches-and-sisters/

Provided my maths is correct the upshot is that duel blades/blade and whip (for sisters) are going to deal more wounds in general and thus are ideal for any opponent that has a weak save and which they can expect to kill quite quickly and take fewer return attacks. Meanwhile bucklers are ideal against targets that might well survive the first round of attacks well, but which are going to have a lot of return attacks. The mortal wounds also makes them ideal against heroes or elite units that might well have better saves. 

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On 9/28/2018 at 1:23 PM, Mark Williams said:

For blood stalkers, I would like to see the errata keeping Morathi’s ability from triggering their mortal wounds redacted. Her command ability clearly says, “as if it were the shooting phase.” And the errata contradicts itself as there’s no faq that correlates to its wording. That simple change would make them more useful and make lists have more variety.

Unfortunately, that only makes Bloodstalkers useful in larger games, because they require a 480pt “buff” to be viable. 

I’d like to see them get two attacks, even if it’s at reduced range. Similar to the Namarti Reavers.

As they stand, 160pts is too much for a maximum of five wounds per shooting phase.

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Blood Stalkers are a unit that could change a little dynamic how DoK armies play, but there is a problem - GH errata can't fix them they should have 2 attacks with bows each for 160 and that would be interesting but synergy with Morathi isn't good as she's hardly your general, another option is to decrease their point cost to 100-120 with option for them to be Batteline with Medusa/Morathi as General - maybe then some lists would run them but still there would be better choices. 

 

Speaking of HaggNarr I had a lot of success with them winning some tournamets but know I am heavy playtesting DraichiGaneth alpha strike list and it's working amazingly well. Khailebron is also very good but it needs specific army building. 

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I feel like it may be more fitting for Stalkers' arrows to deal an extra wound, rather than them getting an extra shot. I don't feel like their archery style is shooting a rain of arrows, but rather firing a few big/well aimed arrows. Keep the 6+ dealing one mortal wound i believe, so that ends up trading raw damage for sticky damage. Idk, I'm sure an extra shot would be stronger, but I feel having the shots deal 2 wounds would make more sense and still increase their damage output, in a more interesting way. 

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I wonder if another angle for the Blood stalkers would be to give them the ability to move and fire so that they can at least advance and keep firing and charging into close combat. Then again that could tip them too far into being too good in close combat compared to their close combat orientated sisters and thus I'd come back around to wanting to see them tougher at range.

I get that the idea of them is to be a skirmisher, to be good in both ranged and close combat situations - to me their issue is that barring the rending and small chance of a mortal wound, they are better in close combat - esp for a unit that might only have 5 or 10 models to its name (even at 3+ to hit and wound that's not many attacks esp once you factor in saves). They do feel like their ranged power needs "something" to improve them. More attacks or more damage, perhaps more accuracy or another ranged trick in addition to or instead of one mortal wound at 6+. Honestly most abilities that hinge on a 6+ are a bonus if they happen, but most times won't be part of what you base a units entire strength around. 

 

Overall they do feel off - not enough power at range to make them really sting and not enough shots to give them volume of fire. 

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@ledha „Khinerai are cheaper than equivalent units like prosecutors and way better,“

yup the 1 dmg 1 attack spears are way better than the Prosecutor‘s Trident + Javelin for 2 dmg a throw plus rerolling 1s of all saves while having a 4+ save and 2 wounds a model. Are you serious?

potential 5 dmg for 80pts vs potential 8 dmg for 100 points while being tanky.

 

the hag buffs a different army than the others you mentioned and she is fine though often rather lackluster

 

Edited by JackStreicher

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I think we can only look at point cost and possibility of being batteline considering Blood Stalkers, DoK isn't getting any new models/rules for a long time ( sure we can get Shadespire warband somewhere in the future) and GW won't just change the warscroll unless it's really abusive. 

1) point cost - 120 would Blood Stalkers be more viable ? Probably but still much worse then 10 Witches, SoS or 5 Heartrenders

2) role - unconditional batteline - along with 120 I could see a role for them. If they are batteline with Medusa General it's much worse as Medusa isn't great general. 

As unconditional battleline for 120 pts they could work in some builds, temple nest becomes quite nice possibility but they will be far from auto-include but a nice option to have.  

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Yeah, two wounds instead of two attacks might be a better way to go. Call it “poisoned arrows” and it fits the theme much better than a hail of arrows.

Looking at the Kurnoth Hunters, a unit of three has six shots of -1 rend, d3 dmg. I don’t know what they cost, and I know direct comparisons aren’t advisable, but I’d like the melusai archers to be a better dedicated ranged unit that make enemies want to take cover. A potential max of eighteen wounds, vs our potential max of five. 

Edited by Ravenborn

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1 hour ago, Ravenborn said:

Yeah, two wounds instead of two attacks might be a better way to go. Call it “poisoned arrows” and it fits the theme much better than a hail of arrows.

Looking at the Kurnoth Hunters, a unit of three has six shots of -1 rend, d3 dmg. I don’t know what they cost, and I know direct comparisons aren’t advisable, but I’d like the melusai archers to be a better dedicated ranged unit that make enemies want to take cover. A potential max of eighteen wounds, vs our potential max of five. 

Kurnoth Hunters with bows cost 200pts. For comparison they are useless in combat and have less models for objective keeping in running for being more tanky against non-mortal wounds.

They are useless in combat however and cannot put out any mortals at range (I know Stalkers don't out out many but they do have the chance). They also have less outside synergy and whilst it's a new concern their own armies wyldwoods work against them by blocking site. They can however use those woods to teleport.

Comparing the two I'd say you either keep them the same cost and increase damage to 2 (lower max but greater consistent damage) or keep them the same and give them a points decrease to 140 and then see how it goes.

 

Also, despite what I said about a page before after talking to my wife about which army she likes I've decided to pick up the Daughters of Khaine (she said she liked the "sexy ones" ?)

 

For now I'll be getting 1000pts and then working up and was wondering what you guys thought of the following list which is attempting to keep costs down somewhat (you think it's bad in the UK trying collecting Witch Aelves here in Japan with another ~50% markup).

 

Hagg Nar

Leaders

Slaughter Queen on Blood Cauldron (General) - 330pts

Hag Queen - 60pts

Bloodstain Medusa - 140pts

Battleline

20 Witch Aelves w/ Dual Daggers - 200pts

10 Witch Aelves w/ Dual Daggers

Units

5 Doomfire Warlocks - 160pts

 

990pts total

 

I'd appreciate help with an artefact and which prayers/spells to take. DoK seem to have a good mixture of strong options so it's hard to know what to focus on. (For fluff purposes I want them to be from either Hysh or Aqshy if you're thinking of realm artefacts).

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Personally I'd rather see then stay at a higher points value (Daughters should be a close combat heavy army) so that you can't spam them, but then nerf their close combat abilities a little and boost their ranged. At present they are a ranged unit weighted to close combat which underperforms against other close combat choices; I'd rather see them as a ranged unit with a ranged focus which underperforms in close combat, but which can at least hold their own for a little while. 

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How well do Daughters run without Morathi? For 480 points it seems a lot for 1 hero choice. 

Are 2 cauldrons better or 1 with a bloodwrack shrine?

I also see negativity against the khinerai & melusai or is it just against the ranged elements?

Sorry for all the questions?

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I use Morathi at 2k, she's a perfectly fine pick in a DoK army, there are perhaps more efficient uses for 480pts if you're really trying to squeeze the army to it's limits, but she's far from a bad choice in addition to being a fun centerpiece model.  I find her quite handy as a roadblock to tie up a scary enemy unit for a couple of rounds when transformed, and if you're using the realm spells then her doubled casting range opens up some quite powerful options.

I've never run two cauldrons, and I don't think there's too much value in doing so, though it would let you split your forces a little more, which could be handy.  It's easy enough to magnetise between cauldron and shrine, to be fair.

Melee melusai and ranged Khinerai are both excellent, it's their alternate builds which are seen less often.  Blood Stalkers are just a touch mediocre for their points cost, and Lifetakers are outclassed by Witch Aelves in every capacity except their (far superior) movement.

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Khinerai are good in both forms, ranged have more survivability of course. The real trick is using them correctly. Khinerai are not a power-house of attacks, nor are they tough as they have only one wound and a native 6+ save, boosted to a 5+ in the combat phase from their shield. So they are not made to weather attacks; they are made to deal the out and they are made to be fast, agile harassment units that can mess with your opponent.

In objective games they can be very powerful as they can be held back and appear late game to contest or secure objectives that are far from the enemies models; or they can be used to assault ranged dedicated units or artillery. With their rending they can even be used to hunt for heroes (eg mages) hiding in the background; or they can swoop in to give a series of support attacks to a unit already engaged with other units. 

 

So what they are is a fine scalpel of a unit designed to make specific surgical strikes. Used well and with a plan they can tip the scales in favour of a win for the player. 

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Hello Gang!  Tonight on Grimdark Live! we are talking Daughters of Khaine!  Live at 7:30pmCST, please join us!

 

Show Link:  

 

2018_Grimdark Live! Live Show Tonight Logo.png

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Ok thanks for the replies. One final question. Are the Battalions worth the points? 

My original list thinking was with a Temple guard battalion, but now thinking that the blood stalkers aren't making it worth it.

Your thoughts ladies & gents

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On 10/10/2018 at 5:47 PM, JackStreicher said:

@ledha „Khinerai are cheaper than equivalent units like prosecutors and way better,“

yup the 1 dmg 1 attack spears are way better than the Prosecutor‘s Trident + Javelin for 2 dmg a throw plus rerolling 1s of all saves while having a 4+ save and 2 wounds a model. Are you serious?

potential 5 dmg for 80pts vs potential 8 dmg for 100 points while being tanky.

Heartrenders have better rend than Prosecutors, if my mathshammer is right they have higher damage output vs 2+ saves normally, and vs 3+ when they set up, Prosecutors being better vs 4+ or worse.

Heartrenders have slightly lower points/wound, making them more resilient vs mortal wounds and high rend, but not by much. Obviously Prosecutors are much more tanky vs low rend.

Heartrenders hit a lot harder in melee than Prosecutors, not that I'd recommend putting them there in the first place if you can avoid it, and the bucklers can deal some retaliation damage though again, it doesn't make a huge difference.

Heartrenders are faster but I think the Prosecutors' longer range wins out there.

Heartrenders have higher bravery but being single-wound counts against them, I'd say that cancels out though.

Cheaper minimum unit means Khinerai are better for grabbing objectives I guess.

If you want to run larger units than the minimum, the Khinerai scale up slightly better on damage output — but then why would you?

I guess strictly speaking I should look at how the allegiance abilities compare and the role each unit plays within their respective armies, but I don't know Stormcast well enough for that.

In conclusion I'd say they're about the same? But like I said, Khinerai are more specialised in taking on armoured opponents.

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On 10/11/2018 at 4:49 AM, Yoshiya said:

I'd appreciate help with an artefact and which prayers/spells to take. DoK seem to have a good mixture of strong options so it's hard to know what to focus on. (For fluff purposes I want them to be from either Hysh or Aqshy if you're thinking of realm artefacts).

If you are going with Hagg Nar I suggest picking up Blessing of Khaine (re-roll fanatical faith rolls). It synergizes well with Devoted Disciples which makes your fanatical faith a 5 up. I also usually take crimson rejuvenation for my Slaughter Q on C. She is so much more effective near full health that it's worth it. 

I've built a similar DoK 1K army

Hagg Nar

Leaders

Slaughter Queen on Blood Cauldron (General) - 330pts

CT - Devoted Disciples 

CA - Orgy of Slaughter 

P - Crimson Rejuvenation

Hag Queen - 60pts

P - Blessing of Khaine

A- Iron Circlet (I like knowing that I should get at least one prayer off)

Battleline

20 Witch Aelves w/ Bucklers - 200pts

10 Witch Aelves w/ Bucklers - 100pts

Units

5 Doomfire Warlocks - 160pts

5 Khinerai Heartrenders - 80pts 

1 command point 

Total: 980pts

 

As you can guess I'm building towards a two tower build designed around the Cauldron Guard battalion. That will be a 2k army with the above, a Hag on Cauldron, a Hag, 2 x 30 WAs and 1 KH plus the Cauldron Guard battalion.

My choices for the prayers and WA equipment are built around trying to make them at tough as possible. With the combination of bloodshield and the bucklers I can get my WAs on a 4 up save and one of them on a 5 up FF save on all wounds. So far I have only played a couple of games (lost both due to tactical stupidity), but my WAs easily make it to T4/T5 where the Blood rites table really shines. 

If you want a break down of bucklers vs daggers check out @Overread math hammer on it. It is excellent. The up shot is that buckers help quite a bit with survival, but are only offensively effective in large  units.

I plan on running this two towers build until the DoK's get nerfed and then I'll go back to the drawing board and mix in some snakes or a Morathi. ...or maybe pick up the shadow aelves if they are out by then.  :) 

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How are you guys liking the Warscrolls? 

Miniaturewise, they really seem to demand people buy a lot of Khinerai. Not sure how I feel about those models, they remind me a lot of Scourges. Scourges are so fiddly they are really annoying to play with.

Are the scrolls really necessary? I'm building towards a witch aelf horde and I am not sure I want to force units into my army that I am not fond of, but I also don't want to miss out on any essential synergies.

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The battalions?  I would say they're not really essential for the most part, no, fun to play around with but you're not missing out if you don't build around them.  Khinerai Heartrenders themselves are very good and worth including in a list, but the models are indeed quite fiddly.

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My honest view is that Battalions need to be taken out of the points system along with command points and given their own allocation system. Right now the point cost for many battalions is quite steep and even with the free command point its a lot of points for not a single model on the table. Plus a lot can be quite restrictive in what you take, which often makes you inclined to take minimum unit counts which makes for a lot of vulnerable groups. 

 

As for khinerai they ARE fragile models; however they are also a great tool to have in a game. They let you have a unit that you can put anywhere on the table (more or less) which can strike with good damage and which should at least get its first turn of attacking first; which makes up for their fragile nature. They are ideal for bunching up and going for a mage or other hero or warbeast; or sending after archers/siege gear. They are also good late game for dropping down and contesting or taking an objective. In addition you can swoop them in to help out your other units; letting you bring them in to flank enemy units already engaged with your forces.

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