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AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion


Chris Tomlin
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3 hours ago, Bonesplitterz said:

Is it me or we can summon a Heart of Fury each turn ? If we’re lucky with rolls we can have, for exemple, 3 Heart of Fury on the table by turn 3?

it’s said that we can only try to summon one per turn and we must have a model available that is not already on the battlefield. Am I reading this right ?

Is there not a matched play rule that restricts all endless spells/prayers etc to one of each on the battlefield at once?

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1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Every unit got better or cheaper. Battalions are still very useful for many reasons 

Cauldron Guard - cheapest way to get lower drop, extra CP, extra item and very good ability that makes your Lifetakers much better.

Slaughter Troupe - retreat and charge is massive, you don't need Hag Queen that much these days so Slaughter Queen slots nicely in to cast prayers and Heart of Fury 

Shadowpatrol - much better as Warlocks are cheaper and have +1 to cast while 5+ and Lifetakers are better. Also you can teleport units out of combat with it now 

Scathcoven -  free BS immunity and quite flexible organisation

Vyperic Guard - enables low drop Melusai army and for 140 it's bascially 1 extra CP and lower drops. 

Sisters of Slaughter - still amazing

Blood Sisters - much better compared to old book - as you have ways to have them buffed with extra attacks one of them (Morathi buff) is quite easy to achieve, also with Ironscale they are faster and cheaper 130 is very good. Horde discount is not an issue - they were 480 for 20 before, now they are 520 for 20, and any time you don't run 20 they are cheaper 

Doomfire - actually better, spell got a it but you almost never used them - now they are bascially a 10W spellcaster with +1 to cast, quite good. 

Morathi - still a boss, rend1-2 doesn't matter much she got such a huge warscroll boost anyway. 

Wholly within on HaggNarr stuff doesn't matter much as it won't impact how Hag Nar plays - you castle up, soak up dmg and they run&charge. Competitive wise it very similar, maybe change some army composition, but with better Morathi and how crazy Heart of Fury could be (as you can put it up on the board and move units into it's aura) HaggNarr will be much better - especially with how insane Shadowstalkers are. Lifetakers are another unit people sleep on  - extra rend and extra attacks thanks to Morathi is huge, 10 of them cost 160 can drop them anywhere near Morathi and they are +1rend, +1dmg on charge  and +1A from Morathi with possible upside of casting Mindrazor. 

Also other temples got buffs - Khailebron, Khelt-Ner could be amazing, Draichi Ganethas well. 

Like I've been playing DoK since old book was released won a fair share of tournaments (including London GT 2019) and this book is big buff. My go-to competitive list will be like this I think 

Morathi - Mindrazor 

Hag Queen on Cauldron - Blessing of Khaine, Ulfuri 

10 Witches with bucklers 

10 Witches with bucklers 

30 Sisters of Slaughter with bucklers/knives 

10 Stalkers 

9 Shadowstalkers

9 Shadowstalkers

Heart of Fury 

Extra CP 

But I have highly competitive Melusai list as well. 

So many exciting stuff, bascially the only thing that was nerfed is Witchbrew and Witches everything else got much better or cheaper or in some cases both. 

 

Thank you for very interesting opinion, and very cool when opinions differ. I ve  one question : Why didnt you include any of these "buff" to your list? 

As i can see your list almost the same as HAMMERTIME 7 DoK's players. But you lost witchbrew and what did you get in return? Where is the buff?

Thank you

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I'm not sure the negativity is warranted yet. Daughters were developed during a time in which the 2.0 battletome formula wasn't fully developed yet, which led to some pretty powerful abilities even after FAQs. We all knew that a new battletome was going to address this and bring their rules/overall structure in line with current edition design theory. Everything going to wholly within and temples prescribing traits, CA and artifacts were all expected. 

Is the stuff that got toned down unexpected? I'd argue no. It was clear hagg nar 5+DPR was going to be changed somehow. I'm honestly surprised they left it as strong as it is. Sure it's wholly within, but you can still get your DPR to be rerolled. And now there's the heart prayer that reduces incoming damage too? You can make an even tougher brick now, you just have to be deliberate with what you're doing instead of mindlessly getting your entire army on a 5+DPR (which was ridiculous). Mind razor was great, and I think it made a side grade. +1 difficulty to cast, but now you always get to pick if you get the +1 damage effect just by charging. Thats great. Suddenly yoy get full usage against some of the more popular armies out there (seraphon, daemons, obr). 

Hags needed a change because they gave out two very powerful buffs... for free... automatically... every turn... and only needed a single model in range. She had been one of the most complained about models in the entire game. Maybe it went too far, maybe not. I'd argue no, because it gets easier as the game goes on. Daughters get additional bonuses as the game goes on. If anything, this reinforces how GW envisions the army being played- as a force that waits until later turns and rolls through your opponent with lots of bonuses.

Some warscrolls were made worse, but nearly everything in the book got a points drop. I see this as a net positive personally. 

I'm encouraged by this. Daughters are finally getting mixed up. It seems like a wider range of the book is a viable option besides hagg nar and witch swarms. Also the lauchon+morathi shenanigans got stopped. Give it a shot before writing it off. 

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11 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

The Lauchon list was dead the moment the Shadow Queen went down to Rend -1 on Heartrender. Nothing like a 400pt model that can't reliably kill 2 sequitors.  It was also a gimmick list. And the hero phase teleport we now need to to actually be able to kill anything with the Shadow Queen being complete dead weight that bounces off of anything with a 3+ save.

Did you play them so that a witch aelf hits like a grot and loses half the unit to battleshock with a single model get further than 12" from your general? Because if you didn't then those experiences don't at all represent what it will be like to play this book. Yes, I understand wholly within was always coming, but I would have thought the implementation wouldn't be as tragically narrow minded as just changing the wording. DoK relied a lot on conga-lines to get both access to their actual buffs and be able to control the board. With 12" wholly within, you can't control multiple objectives or deny large areas of the board without the buffing hero in the center of the unit, where it's incredibly likely to just get sniped out. If you can even keep it there. Like...4 wounds on a cauldron will bring the entire army to a standstill. Alphastrike charges are basically dead 50% of the time because charging unbuffed SoS or Witch Aelves into just about anything is going to get you bounced and battleshock will take care of the rest.

We WERE fine before this(even if the book was starting to show its age) but every aspect of the army has been reduced in power with a few paltry points drops as our only compensation. We don't shoot as well anymore, our prayers are less reliable, we're slower, we have less ability to control the board, our casting got worse, our shooting got worse, our melee buffs are less reliable, our raw melee output is lower, we're far more vulnerable to battleshock, we're EVEN MORE vulnerable to character sniping, we're more battalion dependent.  Morathi-Khaine was the only thing we had going for us and they nerfed her TOO.

Even the stuff that got better isn't meaningful or got canceled out by something else getting worse. The point changes will get you...maybe a battalion on average? Provided you don't take any sisters of slaughter or never use a 20 unit of Blood Sisters. The buffs to Avatars are either irrelevant or enough to force you to bring one for the +1 to prayers which...woo, nothing like spending another 130 points on buff characters. Especially when it's just their to buff your buff characters. Khinerai got better, but not in a way that matters. Mind Razor got better, but we're down from 1-2 successful casts per game to 1 successful cast every 2 games thanks to everyone else getting better in the magic phase and MR going to 8 while shadowstone becomes both harder to access and worse. Bloodwracks got better, still easy to snipe and never going to be able to successfully cast anything. Hexwraiths got cheaper but their casting got worse. Hagg Narr now pushes the blood rites table forward at the cost of both the good 5++ bubble AND full rerolls. Morgwaeth got better but now you can't just take her Morathi and Cauldron without giving up any shot at having a useful relic.

If we hadn't lost out in every single phase of the game, I would have agreed that these could be adapted to, but they hit EVERYTHING. They even nerfed Morathi after what....3 months? With barely any events happening to give them any data?

There's no secret trick here, the book is 1 to 1 with the previous one. Everything works the same, just with the majority of units and abilities getting harsh restrictions on what they used to do.

We might still be able to stay middle of the pack if you get really, really good with the rules, but S tier or even A tier are a thing of the past.
 

Ya know... knee-****** reactionaries like you where saying that the KO book was a nerf too, because it didn't play like the last iteration,   and yet now after people figured out how to use it it's topping every event. 

There are a tonne of options in the new book, we've only had one day to look at it, and already people are thinking of S tier combos,

To quote tom Lyons from the WhatsApp, you can make 10 lifetakers (a unit that costs 160p) into a 55 wounds dealt on average Skud missile that deletes an enemy unit a turn;

So default, Lifetakers are 2 attacks each, 3+/4+/-/1.
On charge, they increase rend and damage by 1. 
Mindrazor increases rend by 1 and damage by 1 on the charge. 

The standard structure I would run these would be wrapping a Hag cauldron, between 20 witches and the Cauldron. You'll send out the missile normally in turn 2. So, the other easy buffs at hand are RR1s to hit from frenzy in turn 2 (from Hagg Nar), Witchbrew (3+ in turn 2, RR wounds), and if they charge near the Shadow Queen (who would normally be sent ahead to draw out/pin an enemy unit), they're also getting +1 attack. The Cauldron could also drop Catechism of Murder, although that isn't calculated into the math. So the unit is going to fly 14" out, and then charge with RR1s (if in Cauldron Guard, which I would be, it would also be +1 to charge). 

Their profile on the charge will be: 

30 attacks (2 base, +1 near Shadowqueen), 3+ (rr1s from allegiance)/4+ (rr from Witchbrew)/-2 rend (1 from charge, 1 from Mindrazor)/3 damage (1 base, 1 from mindrazor, 1 from charge). That averages 42-48 on a 4+ save. Catcheism of murder would on average generate 6 additional hits/4.5 wounds with reroll, thus 11.25 more damage against a 4+ (so 53.25 to 59.25 on average). 

So yeah, that is pretty good for a 160 point sacrificial missile unit.

 

Not to mention, with Cogs and the Battallion they move 16" and have plus 3 to charge,  so they'll hit the enemy lines easy turn one, Chase Shadow queen and 10 blood sisters with 10" move 2D6 run and +2 to charge you will alpha strike the hell out of the enemy.

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1 hour ago, Wachamba said:

Thank you for very interesting opinion, and very cool when opinions differ. I ve  one question : Why didnt you include any of these "buff" to your list? 

As i can see your list almost the same as HAMMERTIME 7 DoK's players. But you lost witchbrew and what did you get in return? Where is the buff?

Thank you

How I didn't include new stuff ? 

- I have Heart of Fury

- list wouldn't be possible with old points

- Whichbrew was never "the buff" and I still have it on Hag Queen. Is it worse ? Surely is but that doesn't change the fact that it's still there, and Heart of Fury more the makes up for it. 

Also it's one list I came up with on the fly - Hammertime is some kind of TTS tournament ? As I don't really follow TTS. Already made some changes to lists after studying book more. 

Fact is all units but Hags  compared to old book got better or cheaper (or both). Also it has so many options 

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13 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

How I didn't include new stuff ? 

- I have Heart of Fury

- list wouldn't be possible with old points

- Whichbrew was never "the buff" and I still have it on Hag Queen. Is it worse ? Surely is but that doesn't change the fact that it's still there, and Heart of Fury more the makes up for it. 

Also it's one list I came up with on the fly - Hammertime is some kind of TTS tournament ? As I don't really follow TTS. Already made some changes to lists after studying book more. 

Fact is all units but Hags  compared to old book got better or cheaper (or both). Also it has so many options 

image.png.c0a9ce87f0e19035fb1c51af06ab5fbd.png

Actually I'm not sure if it's fair to consider the new models as part of a new book. Since the cases when the model comes out separately from the book are frequent. Nevertheless, using the old cost, you can collect the same roster + a new prayer. The only difference is there is no additional CP, but I would prefer 100% witchbrew than that. 

 

Unfortunately for me, the new book has deprived me of a variety of choices to play aelves or melusai. because now I see that melusai are less dependent on successful throws of prayers and being in a bubble. But I'm probably just not a very experienced and good player.

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9 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

@DantePQ the one problem that really holds Doomfire Warlocks back is that they can't cast anything other than their warscroll spells. If they could cast endless spells or faction spells they'd be much more worth considering!

Wow I just re-read the warscroll. They are not anywhere near as useful now. Might as well just take another Medusa.

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I'm digging the changes just for the fact hag-nar isnt the absolute go to it was previously. I am a bit pissed they didnt change the blood sisters MW ability. End of combat for the MW is such dogshit when eels and evocators exist. And the rend nerf on Morathi is some hot garbage, it's a fuxking 600 point model.... 

 

But the wholly within hag-nar change was coming, if you didnt realize that over the last 2 years where everything else got changed to it the. you weren't properly paying attention. Hag brew nerf is pretty rough, I think hags could've been dropped back down to 60-70 now. Their only purpose was hags brew, and that's extremely unreliable now. 

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8 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

I am a bit pissed they didnt change the blood sisters MW ability. End of combat for the MW is such dogshit when eels and evocators exist. And the rend nerf on Morathi is some hot garbage, it's a fuxking 600 point model....

Personally I am finding the MW change with Blood Sisters an upgrade. Yes, your opponent can kill your snakes before you get to use it to full effect. But now my opponent has the pressure of dealing with potentially 10 to 20 MWs smacking him back in the face if he doesn't delete the unit RIGHT NOW. Which frees up your other units. 

The Morathi rend nerf is silly and wasn't needed for her points cost to remain the same.

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After delving into everything, there are only three things I'm discontent with:

1) Morathi rend nerf is big. It may not seem significant, but there are A LOT of traits/abilities/artifacts/etc. that flat ignore -1 rend or reduce it. Not only that, but all of the high armor units in the game (most models coming out nowadays) have 3+ or 2+ saves, often rerolling. There are many units she'll simply bounce off of with only -1 on her primary weapon. No way she'll be able to fight any Idoneth sea creatures, or any Fyreslayers, or KO with gold, or Seraphon dinos, or Lumineth with quartz...hell, even a unit of Sequitors would give her trouble! And the list goes on. I'm still not convinced this isn't an error...so everybody email them about it!

2) Avatar has an actual useful ability now to increase prayer rolls---but he's still too expensive. Knock him down to 100 and we might have something here.

3) Heart of Fury is probably too expensive for how unreliable it is. 3+ to invocate (no way to improve the roll), with a 50% chance to disappear after each battle round. Reducing damage by 1 is cool, but it's only for attacks---not spells or abilities---so it's still limited. 50-60 points would be more reasonable to fit in.

Aside from this stuff, I think the book is great.

Edited by Mutton
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11 minutes ago, Mutton said:

After delving into everything, there are only three things I'm discontent with:

1) Morathi rend nerf is big. It may not seem significant, but there are A LOT of traits/abilities/artifacts/etc. that flat ignore -1 rend or reduce it. Not only that, but all of the high armor units in the game (most models coming out nowadays) have 3+ or 2+ saves, often rerolling. There are many units she'll simply bounce off of with only -1 on her primary weapon. No way she'll be able to fight any Idoneth sea creatures, or any Fyreslayers, or KO with gold, or Seraphon dinos, or Lumineth with quartz...hell, even a unit of Sequitors would give her trouble! And the list goes on. I'm still not convinced this isn't an error...so everybody email them about it!

2) Avatar has an actual useful ability now to increase prayer rolls---but he's still too expensive. Knock him down to 100 and we might have something here.

3) Heart of Fury is probably too expensive for how unreliable it is. 3+ to invocate (no way to improve the roll), with a 50% chance to disappear after each battle round. Reducing damage by 1 is cool, but it's only for attacks---not spells or abilities---so it's still limited. 50-60 points would be more reasonable to fit in.

Aside from this stuff, I think the book is great.

I concur, email the heck out of GeeDubs feedback department. While I can  perfectly understand and even stomach the wider changes, the rend nerf feels like salt in the wound. The reason I used Morathi was to deal with large threats. Now even Teclis sword has  better rend. Not to mention even some chump dude on Glutos gets -2.

Edited by UnholyRevenant
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48 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

Personally I am finding the MW change with Blood Sisters an upgrade. Yes, your opponent can kill your snakes before you get to use it to full effect. But now my opponent has the pressure of dealing with potentially 10 to 20 MWs smacking him back in the face if he doesn't delete the unit RIGHT NOW. Which frees up your other units. 

The Morathi rend nerf is silly and wasn't needed for her points cost to remain the same.

This. Charge him with Blood Sisters and a Hero or some witch elves. What does the opponent attack? the sisters that are gonna freeze him or the witch elves.

Also the crystal touch can reach behind and hit a hero

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30 minutes ago, InSaint said:

Khelt Nar Command Ability

Unmodified hit rolls of 1 against the selected Khelt Nar unit will cause 1 MW to the attacking unit. This is the old temple nest battalion ability!!! 😍

 

And just as useless with all the rerolls in game

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4 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Love the look of that Khelt Nar. Reflecting MWs back on a 1 to hit looks mean on a big block of Blood Sisters. Unmodified 1s - is that before or after rerolls?

Same!

combine that with bucklers 😍

Edited by JackStreicher
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1 hour ago, DJMoose said:

Personally I am finding the MW change with Blood Sisters an upgrade. Yes, your opponent can kill your snakes before you get to use it to full effect. But now my opponent has the pressure of dealing with potentially 10 to 20 MWs smacking him back in the face if he doesn't delete the unit RIGHT NOW. Which frees up your other units. 

The Morathi rend nerf is silly and wasn't needed for her points cost to remain the same.

 

45 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

This. Charge him with Blood Sisters and a Hero or some witch elves. What does the opponent attack? the sisters that are gonna freeze him or the witch elves.

Also the crystal touch can reach behind and hit a hero

Thats still letting your oponent decide how they want to take the attacks versus being able to unleash them as you need. Would you rather have this than start of combat like eels or evocators? Its useable, ill give it that, but it takes the agency away from us and lets the opponent decide if they are going to take MWs or not. It is IMO a completely worse iteration of the same ability. I would still prefer to have their old MW on attack profile, even if they made them unbuffable from things like morathi. Its the only unit in the game that works like this and it is significantly worse for it. 

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46 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

This. Charge him with Blood Sisters and a Hero or some witch elves. What does the opponent attack? the sisters that are gonna freeze him or the witch elves.

Also the crystal touch can reach behind and hit a hero

Several of the guys in my group play Sons of Behemat. It is still my goal to finish off a Mega Gargant with a deluge of MWs.

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Yeah, the Khelt Nar thing is more powerful as a threat than an actual ability. It makes your opponent think twice before sending in anything with mass attacks unless they have spare CP for all out attack. You'll probably only use the ability very rarely but the mere fact that you can affects your opponent's decisions. Basically, the ability is most powerful when you don't even have to use it.

That said, this ability is still on the weaker side. Retreat and Charge is much more important for Khelt Nar.

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