AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[DJMoose]

Having faced not one, but two Nurgle players in a recent tournament, it can be a tough match up for DoK. They were both using the Plaguecyst battalion which gives all their Blightkings -1 rend. While I did take some losses and fail to score ANY kill points against either player, I put my speed and positioning and magic potential to my advantage and managed to get a major victory and tie against both players respectively.  Sure Death and Nurgle are annoyingly durable, but if you can out play your opponent and play the senario, their durability may not matter as much. Still were annoying to face though. The one and only time I used Pit of Shades and I did 5 mortal wounds to a Blightkings unit due to their low movement.

Edited August 4, 2018 by DJMoose

[Aspirant Snaeper]

Okay, so I got a hold of a Daughters of Khaine .pdf to peruse until I start building. Decided to make a 1k points list as a proverbial toe in the water. 

Spoiler

I know it's important to not try to do too many things when you run a list like this, so I've essentially built this up around the Blood Sisters being the main problem-causers. Targeting them with most of the buffs and padding them with Battleline to absorb threats so they can make it to their objective. 

I was weighing back and forth on SoS' or Witch Elves and I'd like to hear the veteran's thoughts on what would be better in smaller point games. Obviously Witch Elves will put out more attacks, but I kind of like the Sister's pile in dynamic and whip range. In either case, they're serving either as chaff for the Blood Sisters or a cheap objective grabber. If I go with the Witch Elves, I'd get the extra Command Point though, so I'm wondering if that's worth considering. I'd definitely be taking Bucklers to give them a potential 4+ in combat with the Cauldron if it's close enough. Not to mention an improved Fanatical Faith roll from the Hagg Nar Temple. 

Lastly, I chose Khinerai Heartrenders for their versatility. I think that them having rend and reach makes up for not having the Lifetakers' extra damage and close combat prowess. Grabbing a distant objective or deep striking in to make an attempt at a valuable enemy hero and hopefully cause some disarray before their inevitable demise. 

I appreciate your time and consideration!

EDIT 1: Also @Overread I went with another five Blood Sisters, but ended up with a Hag Queen and chose to pick up a Sorceress and some Eternal Spells instead of Assassins as I just couldn't make them fit. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine - Mortal Realm: Ulgu - Temple: Hagg Nar

LEADERS

• Bloodwrack Medusa (140) - General - Command Trait : Devoted Desciples - Artefact : Shadow Stone - Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor
• Hag Queen (60) - Artefact : Iron Circlet
• Sorceress (100) - Allies

UNITS

• 10 x Blood Sisters (280)
• 5 x Blood Sisters (140)
• 5 x Blood Sisters (140)
• 10 x Doomfire Warlocks (320)
• 10 x Doomfire Warlocks (320)
• 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
• 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
• 5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
• 5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)

BATTALIONS

• Shadow Patrol (130)

ENDLESS SPELLS

• Suffocating Gravetide (30) Quicksilver Swords (20)

Looking at my 1k List, though, I'm thinking I might retool this to build off of that so I don't end up with loads of expensive models sitting on the shelf when I transition to 2k......

EDIT 2: And on that note, here's my 2k Death Masques list which would be an expansion over the 1k List above:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine - Mortal Realm: Ulgu - Temple: Draichi Ganeth

LEADERS

• Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330) - General - Command Trait : Bathed in Blood - Artefact : Thousand and One Dark Blessings - Prayer : Sacrament of Blood
• Slaughter Queen (100) - Artefact : The Darksword - Prayer : Covenant of the Iron Heart
• Hag Queen (60) - Prayer : Blessing of Khaine

UNITS

• 30 x Sisters Of Slaughter (300) -Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
• 10 x Sisters Of Slaughter (120) -Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
• 20 x Witch Aelves (200) -Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers or Pairs of Sacrificial Knives TBD
• 10 x Blood Sisters (280)
• 10 x Doomfire Warlocks (320) - Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor
• 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
• 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)

BATTALIONS

• Slaughter Troupe (130)

TOTAL: 2000/2000

EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 /// WOUNDS: 133 /// LEADERS: 3/6 /// BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) /// BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 /// ARTILLERY: 0/4 /// ARTEFACTS: 2/2 /// ALLIES: 0/400

We have a switch in Temple here. Depending on the game, buffs may be allocated to the Blood Sisters, Witch Aelves or the larger Sisters of Slaughter unit. The idea of them getting rerolls of 1 on the charge, being able to run and charge, re-rolling to wound with Witch Brew and any other bonuses they might get is big. Being able to hit out of phase with the Slaughter Queens also helps in a huge way, and being able to tap both Queens for their abilities (on separate units, mind you) will ensure things die and die fast... okay well maybe not ensure, but hopefully! 

Meanwhile Doomfire Warlocks will add the only magic offense. Mindrazor might not get popped first turn if they're still 10 strong in order to take advantage of their potential 6 Mortal wounds that could snipe an enemy hero right off the board. After that, assuming they live, it's Mindrazor in most situations. Khinerai Heartrenders are situational. Either working together in the backfield, or splitting up to support the other units. 

As always, thank you for your time and consideration. 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Aspirant Snaeper

[Kramer]

18 hours ago, DJMoose said:

The one and only time I used Pit of Shades and I did 5 mortal wounds to a Blightkings unit due to their low movement.

Haha nice! 

[Olincay]

Bit early, anyone have details of the dok list that came 2nd at Blackout? 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

3 hours ago, Olincay said:

Bit early, anyone have details of the dok list that came 2nd at Blackout? 

Did some digging and found an older version of his list combined with some shots from his Twitter. 

Looks like a Hag Narr Temple - Slaughter Queen on Cauldron, Hag Queen and Bloodwrack Medusa. 30 Witch Aelves, 30 Sisters of Slaughter?, 10 SoS?, 5 Doomfires, 10 Blood Sisters, 2x5 Heartrenders, Slaughter Troupe.

He's on Twitter so maybe poking him on there might get you a response. 

[Mark Williams]

He’s probably playing drachi gaineth. It looks like a clone of the army I’m building atm. It’s a 3-4 drop horde army.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Mark Williams

[Olincay]

3 hours ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

Did some digging and found an older version of his list combined with some shots from his Twitter. 

Looks like a Hag Narr Temple - Slaughter Queen on Cauldron, Hag Queen and Bloodwrack Medusa. 30 Witch Aelves, 30 Sisters of Slaughter?, 10 SoS?, 5 Doomfires, 10 Blood Sisters, 2x5 Heartrenders, Slaughter Troupe.

He's on Twitter so maybe poking him on there might get you a response. 

No Morathi? I'm intrigued! 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

2 hours ago, Olincay said:

No Morathi? I'm intrigued! 

 

Honestly, looking at Morathi's profiles, I like her, but I can imagine she'd be very difficult to play (to her maximum potential). You'd ideally want to balance her between her two forms, and transition from one to the other at the optimal time, otherwise you risk leaving a lot of points idle at the wrong time. 

And here's the older list from another tournament he was in back in May. 

Obviously a few things have changed as the Bloodwrack Shrine seems to have been dropped, likely in response to the increased Battalion costs. 

EDIT: That Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood is making everything incredibly tanky around her. +1 to Armor, 5+ AND re-rolling Fanatical Faith rolls. Those Sisters of Slaughter with Buckler's would be incredibly tough. 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Aspirant Snaeper

[Overread]

Morathi is also a lot of points all in one place; whilst she's got survivability in her wound mechanic she's also big enough and juicy enough that an opponent is going to want to put all 3 wounds on her every turn they get. Plus once they know how she works she's not as much a damage soak as some other tanky units because once she has her 3 wounds your opponent has no reason to focus any more attention to her. So they are not going to spend a turn trying to take her down by focusing everything they've got on her; which helps her survive but also means she's not a tough distraction like some other tanky models. 

She's a very curious model even before you get to her transformation where she goes from a more skirmish/range unit to a full close combat beast. 

[DantePQ]

I was thinking about cropping her but with Realm Rules and Spells I will give her a go at Throne of Skulls Europe. She's amazingly with Realm spells. 

[Morglum StormBasha]

Yeah the list is exactly the same as the one I took to lgt guys. I just downgraded the bloodwrack shrine to a foot medusa to come in at 1950 with 2 cp and hopefully a triumph

[Aspirant Snaeper]

15 minutes ago, Morglum StormBasha said:

Yeah the list is exactly the same as the one I took to lgt guys. I just downgraded the bloodwrack shrine to a foot medusa to come in at 1950 with 2 cp and hopefully a triumph

I'd call 2nd overall a triumph! 

So what was your  guiding philosophy or mindset into building the list? And what are your thoughts on Draichi Ganeth?

[Morglum StormBasha]

Sooo I’ll post this which was my summary of my thoughts from weekend then talk about the list 

1. Remember to use your command points - if you have loads left at the end of the game ( especially if realm rules are in effect) then you may have missed an opportunity.

2. If your list doesn’t include one command point in it then you probably need to rewrite your list for aos2. The 3 new core command abilities are amazing. 

3. If you aren’t going to have a one drop then you need to look at your list and think - how do I survive 24 eels charging at plus 6 inches from a board edge 9 inches away? 

4. The game is won by sitting on objectives and killing models sitting on objectives not by killing enemy armies. 

5. Unbind at 30 is good but it’s very easy to set your wizards up more than 30 away - especially if they are fast.

6. Once you’ve found a list which wins games at your club stick with it. And build that list around how you see games being played out not how someone else does. 19 tournament games in with the same list and I know what i can ask of it and what i can’t now.

[Morglum StormBasha]

Ok the list itself. 

Resilience

Firstly I don’t like tabling my opponents with an alpha strike so I designed a list which could be hit by an alpha strike instead. Hence taking hagg nar and the slaughter queen on cauldron.  As @Aspirant Snaeper said - certain units like the sisters of slaughter then become tanky as hell. 

Movement 

you need a flexible army - witches and sisters running and charging is great but it’s even bettter when those same sisters and your cauldron can retreat and charge because of troupe.  Doomfires and harpies back this up. 

Flexibility 

need weight of attacks take witches - need rend and a smattering of mortal wounds take snakes and doomfires. You need to be able to react to what your opponent has so you need both options in your army. 2 command points and a triumph amplifies this. 

I haven’t tried Drachi ganeth yet as I settled on hagg narr early on and have just practiced with it since March. 

 

[Olincay]

9 hours ago, Morglum StormBasha said:

Ok the list itself. 

Resilience

Firstly I don’t like tabling my opponents with an alpha strike so I designed a list which could be hit by an alpha strike instead. Hence taking hagg nar and the slaughter queen on cauldron.  As @Aspirant Snaeper said - certain units like the sisters of slaughter then become tanky as hell. 

Movement 

you need a flexible army - witches and sisters running and charging is great but it’s even bettter when those same sisters and your cauldron can retreat and charge because of troupe.  Doomfires and harpies back this up. 

Flexibility 

need weight of attacks take witches - need rend and a smattering of mortal wounds take snakes and doomfires. You need to be able to react to what your opponent has so you need both options in your army. 2 command points and a triumph amplifies this. 

I haven’t tried Drachi ganeth yet as I settled on hagg narr early on and have just practiced with it since March. 

 

How did you find the realm rules interact with your list? 
hinder or benefit you at all? 

Also, how do you feel about Morathi? too much of a point sink? 

 

[JackStreicher]

Same Question about Morathi. On paper mine seemed good, but in reality she always underperformed for her costs.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

@Olincay Not to interject as I know the question wasn't directed at me, but my issue with Morathi is her cost for sure.

It's not that I can't stomach 480 points though, it's simply the fact that taking her reduces the quality of the units you surround her with, which in turn puts her at greater risk of being focused on and thus lowering her effectiveness since it may force her into Monster mode sooner than you want it to. 

I prefer Horde armies myself. I like it when I have at least 70 models of Battleline on the board of different flavors. But to make an army like that make sense, you need to have the buffs flowing. Morathi is more than capable of that, but her presence either reduces the size of the horde or the amount of other Heroes to throw out buffs. The rising cost of Battalions is not helping her, either. 

I armchair'd a list together for Morathi as a "what if", because I like her and wouldn't mind running her one day because her model is fantastic and her rules are as well. As I mentioned above, my concern with her is turning her at the optimal time and the difficulty that I feel I would face initially with that. I want to make sure she's a Wizard when I need her and where, and a Monster when I need her and where, and those two roles can sometimes be mutually exclusive. Anyways, not to drag on about a list, but here's what I came up with and what I think about her:

Morathi's Trap Snaeper - Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine - Temple: Khailebron

LEADERS

• Bloodwrack Shrine (220) - General
• Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
• Hag Queen (60)

Forgive me as I hadn't worked out what Artefacts/Prayers to play with. (Mindrazor would be a given for Lore, though). This is a Khailebron Temple Nest list with the Bloodwrack Shrine as the General. Morathi, when next to the Shrine General, has a -3(!!!) to hit from shooting attacks, mixing her ability, the Look out, Sir! and the Temple buff. This allows her to be mobile and relatively un-harassed on the board without depending on cover. Additionally the Shrine's Aura offers a deterrent to anyone who might callously move a unit to hit her (her 3 wounds max being further deterrent). Lastly, by being next to the General, she can transform on my own time and teleport to anywhere she's allowed to go so that The Shadow Queen can do her monster thing in the best possible place. 

The Shrine provides a tanky General that will be buff-focused and the Hag Queen will work as a mobile buff support, but...

UNITS

• 5 x Blood Sisters (140)
• 5 x Blood Sisters (140)
• 5 x Blood Sisters (140)
• 10 x Blood Stalkers (320)
• 10 x Blood Stalkers (320)

BATTALIONS

• Temple Nest (130)

TOTAL: 1950/2000

EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 

This is where I started to dislike Morathi. I followed @Morglum StormBasha's philosophy on docking a few points off the list to get those Command Points. The detriment is, to me, a razor thin list of elite snakes that are absolutely dependent on buffs in order for this mad plan to work. "Why so many Blood Stalkers?" well that's simply to take the best advantage of Morathi's command ability. Having 20 Melusai shooting twice a turn is shades of Kunnin' Rukk levels of shooting cheese. But it means the 15 Blood Sisters need to be on point to do their job, which puts an additional load of burden on the Blood Stalkers. 

"This game is won by claiming objectives" though, so at least the extra movement dynamics provided by the Khailebron command trait ensure some opportunities exist for porting across the map to nab poorly defended points. 

Outside of this list, I cannot visualize how I'd fit Morathi into a 2000 point game, and even this list has a few issues which make it incredibly vulnerable in my eyes. Even switching to a normal Bloodwrack Medusa isn't enough to fit 10 Blood Sisters into a single squad, and I feel that reducing Stalkers defeats the Khailebron battalion's purpose, but it would increase combat effectiveness... Anyways, sorry for the idle rantings of a Khorne player looking to get into Khaine. 

[Overread]

I think one trick with Morathi is to realise that she will become a warsnake. Like most of the DoK range she doesn't want to be sitting back and hiding. She has respectable close combat damage herself and buff spells and abilities coupled to her transformation where she loses most of her ranged abilities and becomes a monster in close combat. Plus don't forget her wounds double when she transforms (both assigned and maximum) so if anything you want to be moving her forward so that when she takes those first 3 wounds you are ready to transform her so that she can leap into combat.

You don't want her transforming in the back-ranks and then having to rush her forward whilst she can't contribute as much. Losing a turn with her isn't viable for the amount of points she costs. 

 

 

I do agree that Daughter's have a lot of nifty stuff that is very high price and that can cut down on variety. Beyond witches, sisters and the hag queen the rest of their range is expensive and/or fragile. 

 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

@Overread I absolutely agree. I think pairing her in a Khailebron Temple list solves most of the issues. Allowing her to be both a back field caster/buff thrower/mortal wound sniper with the massive magical range while keeping her as safe as possible so that when she goes Monster-mode, she has as many of those wounds (preferably all of them!) as possible to ensure she's a threat for the rest of the game. 

*Poof* "Look Medusa! I'm a snake, like you!" - Morathi

"Ugh, this again, alright, go have your fun" *waves hands and teleports boss-snake lady to the front lines*

[Overread]

1 minute ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

 

*Poof* "Look Medusa! I'm a snake, like you!" - Morathi

"Ugh, this again, alright, go have your fun" *waves hands and teleports boss-snake lady to the front lines*

I don't think that works well honestly. 

Remember the moved model has to be outside of 9 inches from any enemy model - that's a big ask for a very big base single miniature on a terrain dotted field that might land her even further away. Plus when it comes to her next movement phase Morathi then can't move in the following movement phase.....

 

 

AND THEN I realise that it doesn't mention charging and that charging is a totally separate movement order in a totally separate phase of the game. It's still risky and something that I think works better for a unit of multiple smaller models, but could work on Morathi. It does get around her fragility in combat even if it means that she might no be buffing units unless you get a strike on your rear lines. 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

16 minutes ago, Overread said:

I don't think that works well honestly. 

Remember the moved model has to be outside of 9 inches from any enemy model - that's a big ask for a very big base single miniature on a terrain dotted field that might land her even further away. Plus when it comes to her next movement phase Morathi then can't move in the following movement phase.....

 

 

AND THEN I realise that it doesn't mention charging and that charging is a totally separate movement order in a totally separate phase of the game. It's still risky and something that I think works better for a unit of multiple smaller models, but could work on Morathi. It does get around her fragility in combat even if it means that she might no be buffing units unless you get a strike on your rear lines. 

Well remember, she doubles her casting range, which means she can throw Mindrazor on Blood Sisters from 36 inches away! Her Command Ability (in my scenario) would be primarily used on the Blood Stalkers (unless Blood sisters are in range), and they would likely be kept close enough to her to ensure they get that valuable buff. 

You also can't count out your opponents reaction to a giant winged snake suddenly popping up on the other side of the board. Ideally I'd be teleporting her by turn three, but in a troubling situation it'd be turn 2. By turn 2, though, Blood Rites is giving you Re-rolls of 1 on Charge Rolls to add a little reliability. But yes, that is probably the biggest flaw in the plan. Another chip in Morathi's armor. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Aspirant Snaeper
Because chip is certainly not a halfway racial slur.

[Morglum StormBasha]

Realm rules are all benefit this is why you want command points.

fighting in chamon get more resilient

fighting in aqshy get more fighty

fighting in ulgu get even more mobile.

ghyran and Shyish less important.

I have  painted morathi but haven’t put her on the table yet as I have t felt I needed her for competitive play, however my mate runs her and came 4th at bobo last weekend. As I understand it she doesn’t really kill stuff but she’s great at blocking up units. In ghb18 new 6  battleplans probably better than in when your playing from any of the 18.

[Morglum StormBasha]

@Aspirant Snaeper your list above does not  work as you can’t use morathis command ability unles she is your general. In practice this means that you can’t make much use of blood stalkers ever as you’d need to have taken 3 normal non snake Battleline. 

[Overread]

Honestly part of me thinks that models like Morathi will come into their own in a few years time. When the AoS player base is more established and has bigger collections and GW tweaks the points to lower them across the board so that you can fit more on a table for a given points value. 

 

[NurglesFirstChosen]

5 hours ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

@Olincay Not to interject as I know the question wasn't directed at me, but my issue with Morathi is her cost for sure.

It's not that I can't stomach 480 points though, it's simply the fact that taking her reduces the quality of the units you surround her with, which in turn puts her at greater risk of being focused on and thus lowering her effectiveness since it may force her into Monster mode sooner than you want it to. 

I prefer Horde armies myself. I like it when I have at least 70 models of Battleline on the board of different flavors. But to make an army like that make sense, you need to have the buffs flowing. Morathi is more than capable of that, but her presence either reduces the size of the horde or the amount of other Heroes to throw out buffs. The rising cost of Battalions is not helping her, either. 

I armchair'd a list together for Morathi as a "what if", because I like her and wouldn't mind running her one day because her model is fantastic and her rules are as well. As I mentioned above, my concern with her is turning her at the optimal time and the difficulty that I feel I would face initially with that. I want to make sure she's a Wizard when I need her and where, and a Monster when I need her and where, and those two roles can sometimes be mutually exclusive. Anyways, not to drag on about a list, but here's what I came up with and what I think about her:

Morathi's Trap Snaeper - Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine - Temple: Khailebron

LEADERS

• Bloodwrack Shrine (220) - General
• Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
• Hag Queen (60)

Forgive me as I hadn't worked out what Artefacts/Prayers to play with. (Mindrazor would be a given for Lore, though). This is a Khailebron Temple Nest list with the Bloodwrack Shrine as the General. Morathi, when next to the Shrine General, has a -3(!!!) to hit from shooting attacks, mixing her ability, the Look out, Sir! and the Temple buff. This allows her to be mobile and relatively un-harassed on the board without depending on cover. Additionally the Shrine's Aura offers a deterrent to anyone who might callously move a unit to hit her (her 3 wounds max being further deterrent). Lastly, by being next to the General, she can transform on my own time and teleport to anywhere she's allowed to go so that The Shadow Queen can do her monster thing in the best possible place. 

The Shrine provides a tanky General that will be buff-focused and the Hag Queen will work as a mobile buff support, but...

UNITS

• 5 x Blood Sisters (140)
• 5 x Blood Sisters (140)
• 5 x Blood Sisters (140)
• 10 x Blood Stalkers (320)
• 10 x Blood Stalkers (320)

BATTALIONS

• Temple Nest (130)

TOTAL: 1950/2000

EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 

This is where I started to dislike Morathi. I followed @Morglum StormBasha's philosophy on docking a few points off the list to get those Command Points. The detriment is, to me, a razor thin list of elite snakes that are absolutely dependent on buffs in order for this mad plan to work. "Why so many Blood Stalkers?" well that's simply to take the best advantage of Morathi's command ability. Having 20 Melusai shooting twice a turn is shades of Kunnin' Rukk levels of shooting cheese. But it means the 15 Blood Sisters need to be on point to do their job, which puts an additional load of burden on the Blood Stalkers. 

"This game is won by claiming objectives" though, so at least the extra movement dynamics provided by the Khailebron command trait ensure some opportunities exist for porting across the map to nab poorly defended points. 

Outside of this list, I cannot visualize how I'd fit Morathi into a 2000 point game, and even this list has a few issues which make it incredibly vulnerable in my eyes. Even switching to a normal Bloodwrack Medusa isn't enough to fit 10 Blood Sisters into a single squad, and I feel that reducing Stalkers defeats the Khailebron battalion's purpose, but it would increase combat effectiveness... Anyways, sorry for the idle rantings of a Khorne player looking to get into Khaine. 

One problem I see arising with your list is that Morathi can only use her command ability if she is general.