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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

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7 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

This explanation is going to be a little bit arcane, but there are basically two theories to the ways that rules function:

  • Sets of rules that tell you what you can do. In this case the rules need to approve something for it to be within the rules.
  • Sets of rules that tell you what you can't do. In this case anything goes unless the rules prohibit it.

The rules to Age of Sigmar are the first type. They tell you what you can do, and if the rules don't say that you can do something then you can't do it. Your argument relies on the rules being interpreted as the second type.

 

By that logic, do we have to assume that the 3 new battalions (Vyperic Guard, Scathcoven, Shrine Brood) are generic Daughters of Khaine Warscroll battalions that all temples can take and that Cobra Kai only has access to the 3 new ones?

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1 minute ago, Scruf said:

By that logic, do we have to assume that the 3 new battalions (Vyperic Guard, Scathcoven, Shrine Brood) are generic Daughters of Khaine Warscroll battalions that all temples can take and that Cobra Kai only has access to the 3 new ones?

No... 

The original battalions are available to the Allegiance which Zainthar Kai is a temple of. We know this because it says "When you pick the Daughters of Khaine allegiance..." 

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Just now, whispersofblood said:

No... 

The original battalions are available to the Allegiance which Zainthar Kai is a temple of. We know this because it says "When you pick the Daughters of Khaine allegiance..." 

Then see my other comment about Stormkeeps. Stormkeeps have the same "When you pick" language and instead of being granted access the way Cobra Kai does, their battalions are all explicitly restricted to Stormkeeps on the war scroll battalion card.

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2 minutes ago, Scruf said:

Then see my other comment about Stormkeeps. Stormkeeps have the same "When you pick" language and instead of being granted access the way Cobra Kai does, their battalions are all explicitly restricted to Stormkeeps on the war scroll battalion card.

Storm Keeps are effectively an Allegiance inside an Allegiance. This is because they still need to be able to select a storm host. Its not apples to apples.

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40 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Storm Keeps are effectively an Allegiance inside an Allegiance. This is because they still need to be able to select a storm host. Its not apples to apples.

Cool, let's look at an apples to apples example. 

White Dwarf 451 gave us 3 war scroll battalions for for the Ironsunz warclan (temple of Orruks). All 3 of these battalions (even though they're listed as "Ironsunz Warscroll Battallion") specify "This battalion can only be taken as part of an Ironjawz army that is from the Ironsunz warclan.

Similarly WD 455 gave us 2 battalions for Jawz of Mork goblins. All of these warscrolls require most units to have the Jawz of Mork keyword that you can give your army if it's a GSG army. 

I'm not sure of which other armies have subfaction specific battalions, but Ironsunz is a 1:1 comparison (new temple) and their battalions all have limiting text.

Edit: strikethrough

Edited by Scruf

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There is nothing to clarify. It does not matter whether it‘s written on the battalions or somewhere else: As of this moment it is Cobra Kai only, until a faq changes that :)

We can‘t go the route of „Yes it‘s written there, but let‘s ignore it because other battalions have their restrictions on the scroll“

Edited by JackStreicher
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47 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

There is nothing to clarify. It does not matter whether it‘s written on the battalions or somewhere else: As of this moment it is Cobra Kai only, until a faq changes that :)

We can‘t go the route of „Yes it‘s written there, but let‘s ignore it because other battalions have their restrictions on the scroll“

How is there nothing to clarify? DoK has an interpreted restriction (It only says Cobra Kai can take them so that means the other temples can't) while in the same book the Stormcast/Idoneth/Slaves to Darkness have an absolute restriction (their battalions are restricted to specific armies/factions on the warscoll).

  1. In the points section, they are Daughters of Khaine warscroll battalions. Similarly, The Stormkeeps are Stormcast Eternal, The Bloodsurf is Idoneth and Gresh's is Slave to Darkness.
  2. Every other battalion in the book has a limiter on it that restricts it to a specific subfaction or army. Stormkeeps require a Stormkeeps army, Bloodsurf requires the Ionrach enclave and Gresh's requires Idolators. There is no limitations on the DoK battalions.
  3. On page 95 it states "This update to Battletome: Daughters of Khaine contains rules for the Zainthar Cobra Kai temple, new war scroll battalions for Morathi's elite Scathborn, and updated warscrolls for Morathi after <spoiler>." Cobra Kai and the new warscroll battalions are completely separate items there.

By the way, please don't take this as me trying to be an a-hole or anything. I have 3 copies of Shadow & Pain on the way to build my Cobra Kai army. I plan to run a Vyperic Guard Cobra Kai 1 or 2 drop. I'm not trying to game any rules. I just want GW to write good rules and by having these discussions it hopefully gets more people to go ask them and hopefully get an FAQ. I'm an Arkanaut at heart and love the minutia of the rules. If I've being a ******, tell me and I'll stop.

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@Scruf no worries.

imo there is nothing to interpret. The wording clearly says that you can take the battalions if you chose to be Cobra Kai. It never says you can take it if you pick Hag Narr etc.

It‘s utterly meaningless where other restriction rule were written down. We have the rule, that allows Cobra Kai to take it and that‘s it :)

The way it is written right now is valid, it‘s unpleasant and maybe even unwanted but it is what it is :)

I am pretty sure it‘ll be FAQed soon, yet I expect it to stay only within Cobra Kai since it makes the most sense for it (and makes it a bit more valid vs Hag Narr)

 

cheers :)

Edited by JackStreicher
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I have a quick question, in the new Morathi Khaine warscroll says that she is treated as a general in addition to the model that is chosen to be the general...

So, does that mean that she also has the temple trait? let's say I'm playing Khaileborn, can she also teleport a near by unit?

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1 hour ago, Enkyridion said:

I have a quick question, in the new Morathi Khaine warscroll says that she is treated as a general in addition to the model that is chosen to be the general...

So, does that mean that she also has the temple trait? let's say I'm playing Khaileborn, can she also teleport a near by unit?

 

95156CBE-378F-4DD8-9BC7-6A8D3438095A.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Enkyridion said:

I have a quick question, in the new Morathi Khaine warscroll says that she is treated as a general in addition to the model that is chosen to be the general...

So, does that mean that she also has the temple trait? let's say I'm playing Khaileborn, can she also teleport a near by unit?

I think it's more for the 12" range for generic command abilities instead of 6" that a hero would have.

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12 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

It‘s utterly meaningless where other restriction rule were written down. We have the rule, that allows Cobra Kai to take it and that‘s it :)

The way it is written right now is valid, it‘s unpleasant and maybe even unwanted but it is what it is :)

I am pretty sure it‘ll be FAQed soon, yet I expect it to stay only within Cobra Kai since it makes the most sense for it (and makes it a bit more valid vs Hag Narr)

I think you are right that the intention is to restrict the battalion to the new subfaction, so eventually I think they will FAQ it to be like you are interpreting it. But the rules writing does not reflect this at the moment.

You (and the GW rules writers, by extension) are making a really common logic mistake here, which is to confuse "if" and "only if". Currently the rules as written say you can take the battalion if you are in the subfaction. It does not say only if you are in the subfaction. Since battalions are open to anyone by default unless restricted on their warscroll, this does not forbid other subfactions from taking it.

To illustrate the difference, think about the statements "If it rains the streets get wet." and "Only if it rains the streets get wet." They are different statements. Only the first one is correct: There are a lot of ways that streets can get wet that don't involve rain.

But again, I believe what GW intended was to restrict access to the battalion, because otherwise they would probably not have bothered to explicitly mention that you are able to take it. It's just that they... didn't.

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34 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think you are right that the intention is to restrict the battalion to the new subfaction, so eventually I think they will FAQ it to be like you are interpreting it. But the rules writing does not reflect this at the moment.

You (and the GW rules writers, by extension) are making a really common logic mistake here, which is to confuse "if" and "only if". Currently the rules as written say you can take the battalion if you are in the subfaction. It does not say only if you are in the subfaction. Since battalions are open to anyone by default unless restricted on their warscroll, this does not forbid other subfactions from taking it.

To illustrate the difference, think about the statements "If it rains the streets get wet." and "Only if it rains the streets get wet." They are different statements. Only the first one is correct: There are a lot of ways that streets can get wet that don't involve rain.

But again, I believe what GW intended was to restrict access to the battalion, because otherwise they would probably not have bothered to explicitly mention that you are able to take it. It's just that they... didn't.

Imo it is no mere interpretation. They add 2 conditions that must apply so you can take the battallions:
 

Quote

. When you pick the Daughters of Khaine allegiance for your army, you can say it will be a Zainthar Kai army.
If you do so, it has access to the Temple of Khaine rules at the bottom and can include the warscroll battalions on the right.

 

 

 

The wording is way too specific to wave it off or simply call it a "interpretation".  By your way of argumentation every other Allegiance (SCE, LoN, Idoneth) should be able to have access to the Zainthar Kai  Temple Rules because it does not say "only if you do so, it has access to the Temple of Khaine rules...". :)

Edited by JackStreicher

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I think it's best not to get into this too deeply, because in the end it's going to only get resolved by FAQ anyway. So (with no hard feelings, seriously) this will be the last post I'll make about this.

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo it is no mere interpretation. They add 2 conditions that must apply so you can take the battallions. [...] The wording is way too specific to wave it off or simply call it a "interpretation".

The problem is not that the intention is unclear. It's that the text does not say what GW (probably) wants it to say. You are right: The wording is specific. And by the normal rules of conversation, they would not bother to explicitly allow an option if it was unrestricted anyway. The problem is that just on the level of what this says in the book, there is no restriction of who can take the battalion (even though it seems to be intended).  And that's just a problem of bad/inconsistent rules writing.

10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

 By your way of argumentation every other Allegiance (SCE, LoN, Idoneth) should be able to have access to the Zainthar Kai  Temple Rules because it does not say "only if you do so, it has access to the Temple of Khaine rules...". :)

You know that the context is important here. Allegiance abilities and battalions work differently. Allegiance abilities are restricted by default and need to be explicitly allowed to be used, while battalions are open inside a faction by default and need to be explicitly restricted. Don't turn this on me, please, that inconsistent way of doing things is also on GW.

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8 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

And by the normal rules of conversation, they would not bother to explicitly allow an option if it was unrestricted anyway. The problem is that just on the level of what this says in the book, there is no restriction of who can take the battalion (even though it seems to be intended). 

It is not. The rule is solid and crystal clear. Not liking it or doubting the intend will not make it less viable. The way it is written CLEARLY prohibits other subfactions from taking it. Period. 
otherwise I could doubt the intend of any rule whenever I feel like it. :)

again, they could print this rule randomly anywhere in the book and it would still be a binding rule.

 

I am not sure we are debating about the same thing here:

my point is: the rule is binding.

I don‘t know what your point is? That it should be different or that you think it is not binding? :)

Edited by JackStreicher

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Amazing models friends!!

Last week I have a chance of playing my DOK vs Orruks, using the new rules, and the UB (as I said on aaall the battle reports, living in Madrid during Covid days is hard for the game. I hope I can return home in Christmas and play some non-online games).

I hope you like it. Also I prepared a quick video with the rules changes of this book but I´m not going to post it on aaaall the factions post, so If you have friends, sub and that things...

So I love the stalkers with khailebron, I think I can test that list for the future tournaments (and for the next ETC but I think that things are going to change aaaaa lot). But I LOVE THAT LIST.

 

 

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Just won a 16 player, 3 round tournament. I ran the following list

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
The Shadow Queen (390)
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Lore of Shadows: The Withering
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117
 

Game 1 was shifting objectives against a nurgle list. He had a great unclean one, harbinger, and a blight cyst with a lord of blights and 3x10 blightkings and 2x5 kings. He took doest turn and charged one unit of 10 into my screen of 30 sisters of slaughter with blood sisters behind them. Between the blood sisters attacks and crystal touches, followed by the blood sisters activating in the hero phase, I was able to clear out most of the unit. Then it just came down to the snakes and big morathi cleaning blightking bodies off objectives. Theyre really tough with so many wounds, but the blood sisters still pushed through it. He conceded after my half of turn 3, where I brought him down to 2 units of 5 kings and a unit of 3 left. Highlight of the game was the blood sisters killing 6 kings, the great unclean one, and the harbinger in one combat (did 10 mortals to the guo with crystal touches to finish him off).

 

Game 2 was against a strange cities list in battle for the pass. He was living City with a hurricanum, celestant prime, and 12 units of 10 shadow warriors. Honestly not much happened in this game. I strung my army out to prevent him being able to deploy anywhere in my table half. I then took first turn and strung out enough so that he could only deploy towards the back 1/4 of the table. I just spent the game outscoring him and let big morathi run havoc among his heavily clustered units. Cool list, but just didn't put out nearly enough damage.

 

Game 3 was against hermdar fyreslayers in focal points. He had 2 blocks of 20 hearthguard, lords of the lodge, and some vulkites. I had the advantage because I had 2 units that grant extra points with big morathi and the cauldron. So I deployed defensively and took 2 turns of scoring 6 to his 4. Turn 2 he charged one berzerker block into my sisters of slaughter, which he only killed 12 of thanks to my reroll saves triumph and him not stopping enfeebling foe from effecting the berzerkers with the nullsidian icon. The snakes and both forms of morathi charged that unit and did moderate damage. But I won priority for turn 3, and got mind razor, blessing, and mystic shield on my snakes, and got withering onto the berzerkers. Then +1 attack for being in range of morathi meant I shredded the berzerkers in the hero phase with morathi's CA. Those snakes then ran through all of his shooters, the runefather, battlesmith, and a vulkite unit. His tunneling unit had been cordoned off by my unit of 10 elves and big morathi after he failed his charge the turn prior, and that was the only unit left by the end of my turn 3. 

 

 

So I won with max points and all of my secondaries in all 3 games. Second was an OBR list with arkhsn, katakros, and 2x15 deathriders. Third was a big waagh list running all bonesplitter units. 

As someone who has run morathi in all of my competitive lists before the update, I keep finding myself impressed with her new rules. I traded a unit of heartrenders and my shrine for my medusa for new morathi and a CP. Basically, I bought a 3 cast, 2 unbind unkillable wizard for 120 points. Thats a steal.

I was worried about losing the constant threat the heartrenders provide, but I never felt their loss. I also went into the event expecting my medusa to be constantly killed off, but it didnt end up being an issue. This is partially due to the matchups I got, but promising for future events that I plan to use the same list for. I was pleasantly surprised by the blood sisters. Crystal touch was harder for my opponents to work around than I thought it would be, and the +1 attack from morathi being in combat nearby, plus mind razor and hero phase activation is a real unit clearer. Ive never gone through fyreslayers as easily as I did today. 

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Interesting! Thanks for the info!!! Very good to hear that the sneks aren’t completely useless, they still work for killing stuffs. 
 

and very good job, congrats on first place!

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14 hours ago, Graywater said:

Just won a 16 player, 3 round tournament. I ran the following list

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
The Shadow Queen (390)
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Lore of Shadows: The Withering
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117
 

Game 1 was shifting objectives against a nurgle list. He had a great unclean one, harbinger, and a blight cyst with a lord of blights and 3x10 blightkings and 2x5 kings. He took doest turn and charged one unit of 10 into my screen of 30 sisters of slaughter with blood sisters behind them. Between the blood sisters attacks and crystal touches, followed by the blood sisters activating in the hero phase, I was able to clear out most of the unit. Then it just came down to the snakes and big morathi cleaning blightking bodies off objectives. Theyre really tough with so many wounds, but the blood sisters still pushed through it. He conceded after my half of turn 3, where I brought him down to 2 units of 5 kings and a unit of 3 left. Highlight of the game was the blood sisters killing 6 kings, the great unclean one, and the harbinger in one combat (did 10 mortals to the guo with crystal touches to finish him off).

 

Game 2 was against a strange cities list in battle for the pass. He was living City with a hurricanum, celestant prime, and 12 units of 10 shadow warriors. Honestly not much happened in this game. I strung my army out to prevent him being able to deploy anywhere in my table half. I then took first turn and strung out enough so that he could only deploy towards the back 1/4 of the table. I just spent the game outscoring him and let big morathi run havoc among his heavily clustered units. Cool list, but just didn't put out nearly enough damage.

 

Game 3 was against hermdar fyreslayers in focal points. He had 2 blocks of 20 hearthguard, lords of the lodge, and some vulkites. I had the advantage because I had 2 units that grant extra points with big morathi and the cauldron. So I deployed defensively and took 2 turns of scoring 6 to his 4. Turn 2 he charged one berzerker block into my sisters of slaughter, which he only killed 12 of thanks to my reroll saves triumph and him not stopping enfeebling foe from effecting the berzerkers with the nullsidian icon. The snakes and both forms of morathi charged that unit and did moderate damage. But I won priority for turn 3, and got mind razor, blessing, and mystic shield on my snakes, and got withering onto the berzerkers. Then +1 attack for being in range of morathi meant I shredded the berzerkers in the hero phase with morathi's CA. Those snakes then ran through all of his shooters, the runefather, battlesmith, and a vulkite unit. His tunneling unit had been cordoned off by my unit of 10 elves and big morathi after he failed his charge the turn prior, and that was the only unit left by the end of my turn 3. 

 

 

So I won with max points and all of my secondaries in all 3 games. Second was an OBR list with arkhsn, katakros, and 2x15 deathriders. Third was a big waagh list running all bonesplitter units. 

As someone who has run morathi in all of my competitive lists before the update, I keep finding myself impressed with her new rules. I traded a unit of heartrenders and my shrine for my medusa for new morathi and a CP. Basically, I bought a 3 cast, 2 unbind unkillable wizard for 120 points. Thats a steal.

I was worried about losing the constant threat the heartrenders provide, but I never felt their loss. I also went into the event expecting my medusa to be constantly killed off, but it didnt end up being an issue. This is partially due to the matchups I got, but promising for future events that I plan to use the same list for. I was pleasantly surprised by the blood sisters. Crystal touch was harder for my opponents to work around than I thought it would be, and the +1 attack from morathi being in combat nearby, plus mind razor and hero phase activation is a real unit clearer. Ive never gone through fyreslayers as easily as I did today. 

Congrats bud! Its around the same 7 drop list I have (CP and 20pts went into my medusa being on shrine, and I have shadowstone/mindrazor with morathi on steed of shadows)

You had a good mix to face. Solid performance! 

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4 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

Congrats bud! Its around the same 7 drop list I have (CP and 20pts went into my medusa being on shrine, and I have shadowstone/mindrazor with morathi on steed of shadows)

You had a good mix to face. Solid performance! 

Morathi with steed of shadows is an interesting idea. I didnt cast withering too much since wound rolls get supplemented by witchbrew, though it was instrumental in my game against fyreslayers. I still can't pass on iron circlet, because not getting blessing off is a disaster. Also its a lot of investment into an easier to kill model without her shrine and I can't lose mindrazor. Im not upset I took away her shrine though for the CP.

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Ok so the Blood Stalkers and Sisters in Shadow and Pain box have different scrolls and points? Are these rules similar to the soul wars scrolls which are intended only as for use with the box and the supplement it comes with? Basically to make up the difference in the box being not balanced as if you only have that box and the models it comes with? 

Just kinda confusing that they haven't updated the scrolls/points, or that they weren't included in Broken realms morathi which clearly had the opportunity to update them in this way with the wording they provide about it being an update to the battletome itself.

Any clarity on this would be appreciated.

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