AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Chumphammer]

1st draft of a list to use:

 

HagNarr

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron: 270 Blessing of Khaine, Iron Circlet
Bloodwrack Shrine: 160 General, Mindrazor, the ulfuri
Bloodwrack Shrine: 160 Mindrazor
Morgwaeth the Bloodied: 80 Catachism of Murder
Bladecoven: 0
10 Blood Sisters: 260
10 Blood Sisters: 260
10 Blood Stalkers: 280
5 Khinari Lifetakers: 80
5 Khinari Lifetakers: 80
9 Khainite Shadowstalkers: 100
Heart of Fury: 80
Bloodwrack Viper: 40
Scathcoven: 140

6 drops, 5 dispels, 2 casts, 2 prayers
1990pts

[Fyrm]

So, we now know for sure that our Predatory Endless Spells can backfire. That is unfortunate. Not too surprising, but unfortunate. Which is a pity, because the snake looks like it’s very good. Maybe have a Bloodwrack Shrine Jump behind their lines to throw it where it can’t cause you harm? So worst case they move it off somewhere a later turn? 
 

Also...is it just me, or is the Khailebron CA worded oddly? You teleport at the end of the movement phase, and can’t move in your next movement phase? So if you use it in turn one, you can’t move turn two? That actually sounds really bad. I’m glad we got a lot of nice teleportation options for our heroes I suppose, but it looks like our troops won’t be as free ranging as before. 

[Mcprowlington]

6 minutes ago, Fyrm said:

 

Also...is it just me, or is the Khailebron CA worded oddly? You teleport at the end of the movement phase, and can’t move in your next movement phase? So if you use it in turn one, you can’t move turn two? That actually sounds really bad. 

Definitely an error that will be FAQ'd, no way it's supposed to be that bad. I assume the last part was included in an earlier draft where it was supposed to be done in the hero phase 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Mcprowlington

[Fred1245]

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

@Fred1245 you are absolutely correct that this book is a nerf, but beyond that I think you are way off base. I've been playing DoK almost exclusively against top tier lists for the last couple months, and the optimal pre-book DoK lists were utterly overpowered. The hero phase teleport basically made the faction a better version of KO, and don't get me started on the Lauchon/Mirror Dance/Morathi ******. That stuff absolutely needed to be taken out of the game.

Once I realized how broken those builds were I focused on playing lower tier DoK lists that I thought were realistic representations of how the faction would play once these obviously overpowered abilities got nerfed. I was playing lots of tough opponents: lots of Fangs of Sotek Kroak lists, Teclis lists, Archaon/Kairos Tzeentch lists, Changehost, KO, and some oddball lists that are surprisingly decent like the Archaon/Katakros list that's been floating around. The only top tier army that I didn't really get much chance to test against was Idoneth.

What I found is that the faction played absolutely fine and was competitive in most of these matchups.

I think that all of your concerns have some basic validity to them, but they can be adapted to. If you just keep playing DoK the way you did before you are going to have a bad time, but I think if you take the time to learn the new rules you will find that DoK are still very competitive and might even still have some S tier builds.

 

The Lauchon list was dead the moment the Shadow Queen went down to Rend -1 on Heartrender. Nothing like a 400pt model that can't reliably kill 2 sequitors.  It was also a gimmick list. And the hero phase teleport we now need to to actually be able to kill anything with the Shadow Queen being complete dead weight that bounces off of anything with a 3+ save.

Did you play them so that a witch aelf hits like a grot and loses half the unit to battleshock with a single model get further than 12" from your general? Because if you didn't then those experiences don't at all represent what it will be like to play this book. Yes, I understand wholly within was always coming, but I would have thought the implementation wouldn't be as tragically narrow minded as just changing the wording. DoK relied a lot on conga-lines to get both access to their actual buffs and be able to control the board. With 12" wholly within, you can't control multiple objectives or deny large areas of the board without the buffing hero in the center of the unit, where it's incredibly likely to just get sniped out. If you can even keep it there. Like...4 wounds on a cauldron will bring the entire army to a standstill. Alphastrike charges are basically dead 50% of the time because charging unbuffed SoS or Witch Aelves into just about anything is going to get you bounced and battleshock will take care of the rest.

We WERE fine before this(even if the book was starting to show its age) but every aspect of the army has been reduced in power with a few paltry points drops as our only compensation. We don't shoot as well anymore, our prayers are less reliable, we're slower, we have less ability to control the board, our casting got worse, our shooting got worse, our melee buffs are less reliable, our raw melee output is lower, we're far more vulnerable to battleshock, we're EVEN MORE vulnerable to character sniping, we're more battalion dependent.  Morathi-Khaine was the only thing we had going for us and they nerfed her TOO.

Even the stuff that got better isn't meaningful or got canceled out by something else getting worse. The point changes will get you...maybe a battalion on average? Provided you don't take any sisters of slaughter or never use a 20 unit of Blood Sisters. The buffs to Avatars are either irrelevant or enough to force you to bring one for the +1 to prayers which...woo, nothing like spending another 130 points on buff characters. Especially when it's just their to buff your buff characters. Khinerai got better, but not in a way that matters. Mind Razor got better, but we're down from 1-2 successful casts per game to 1 successful cast every 2 games thanks to everyone else getting better in the magic phase and MR going to 8 while shadowstone becomes both harder to access and worse. Bloodwracks got better, still easy to snipe and never going to be able to successfully cast anything. Hexwraiths got cheaper but their casting got worse. Hagg Narr now pushes the blood rites table forward at the cost of both the good 5++ bubble AND full rerolls. Morgwaeth got better but now you can't just take her Morathi and Cauldron without giving up any shot at having a useful relic.

If we hadn't lost out in every single phase of the game, I would have agreed that these could be adapted to, but they hit EVERYTHING. They even nerfed Morathi after what....3 months? With barely any events happening to give them any data?

There's no secret trick here, the book is 1 to 1 with the previous one. Everything works the same, just with the majority of units and abilities getting harsh restrictions on what they used to do.

We might still be able to stay middle of the pack if you get really, really good with the rules, but S tier or even A tier are a thing of the past.
 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Fred1245

[Joseph Mackay]

6 hours ago, UnholyRevenant said:

I cant understand why people are upset about the inclusion of Wholly Within. It should have  been clear to anyone with a Brain stem it was comming. Every other book has followed the same format, no way Daughters were going to escape it. That said I Iike the update. The only two things I dislike is the CV 8 on mindrazor and the changes to Witch Brew. 

Because ‘within’ is presumably better than ‘wholly within’ so it’s considered a nerf and nobody likes their toys nerfed (even when it’s needed for the health of the game)

not my opinion but why I suspect people are upset

[jhamslam]

3 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

The Lauchon list was dead the moment the Shadow Queen went down to Rend -1 on Heartrender. Nothing like a 400pt model that can't reliably kill 2 sequitors.  It was also a gimmick list. And the hero phase teleport we now need to to actually be able to kill anything with the Shadow Queen being complete dead weight that bounces off of anything with a 3+ save.

Did you play them so that a witch aelf hits like a grot and loses half the unit to battleshock with a single model get further than 12" from your general? Because if you didn't then those experiences don't at all represent what it will be like to play this book. Yes, I understand wholly within was always coming, but I would have thought the implementation wouldn't be as tragically narrow minded as just changing the wording. DoK relied a lot on conga-lines to get both access to their actual buffs and be able to control the board. With 12" wholly within, you can't control multiple objectives or deny large areas of the board without the buffing hero in the center of the unit, where it's incredibly likely to just get sniped out. If you can even keep it there. Like...4 wounds on a cauldron will bring the entire army to a standstill. Alphastrike charges are basically dead 50% of the time because charging unbuffed SoS or Witch Aelves into just about anything is going to get you bounced and battleshock will take care of the rest.

We WERE fine before this(even if the book was starting to show its age) but every aspect of the army has been reduced in power with a few paltry points drops as our only compensation. We don't shoot as well anymore, our prayers are less reliable, we're slower, we have less ability to control the board, our casting got worse, our shooting got worse, our melee buffs are less reliable, our raw melee output is lower, we're far more vulnerable to battleshock, we're EVEN MORE vulnerable to character sniping, we're more battalion dependent.  Morathi-Khaine was the only thing we had going for us and they nerfed her TOO.

Even the stuff that got better isn't meaningful or got canceled out by something else getting worse. The point changes will get you...maybe a battalion on average? Provided you don't take any sisters of slaughter or never use a 20 unit of Blood Sisters. The buffs to Avatars are either irrelevant or enough to force you to bring one for the +1 to prayers which...woo, nothing like spending another 130 points on buff characters. Especially when it's just their to buff your buff characters. Khinerai got better, but not in a way that matters. Mind Razor got better, but we're down from 1-2 successful casts per game to 1 successful cast every 2 games thanks to everyone else getting better in the magic phase and MR going to 8 while shadowstone becomes both harder to access and worse. Bloodwracks got better, still easy to snipe and never going to be able to successfully cast anything. Hexwraiths got cheaper but their casting got worse. Hagg Narr now pushes the blood rites table forward at the cost of both the good 5++ bubble AND full rerolls. Morgwaeth got better but now you can't just take her Morathi and Cauldron without giving up any shot at having a useful relic.

If we hadn't lost out in every single phase of the game, I would have agreed that these could be adapted to, but they hit EVERYTHING. They even nerfed Morathi after what....3 months? With barely any events happening to give them any data?

There's no secret trick here, the book is 1 to 1 with the previous one. Everything works the same, just with the majority of units and abilities getting harsh restrictions on what they used to do.

We might still be able to stay middle of the pack if you get really, really good with the rules, but S tier or even A tier are a thing of the past.
 

Just because theres busted stuff in Fangs of Sotek/ Changehost, KO doesnt mean ours should be. Those books are probably due a big nerfing this May/June. Id rather be a competitive book with a high ceiling where i have to use my brains and a bit of luck than just roll over the table with my model rules where no one can do a damn thing. It means we can more or less play the same models without having a bunch of em go thru a major nerf. A lot of DoK previously ran on autopilot

Edited February 13, 2021 by jhamslam

[Ggom]

I’m curious what are some lower point lists that folks would recommend for noobs learning the game. Right now I have:

10 witch elves

10 sisters of slaughter

5 choppy snakes

5 choppy harpies

1 Morgwaeth and friends

1 cauldron magnetized for either slaughter queen or hag queen (can run the other on foot)

1 cauldron unbuilt

I’ve played the game once, a few years ago. I’d rather not spam too much, since painting gets tiring, and I mostly paint, but I recognize that some spam is necessary because of how points cheap everything we have is. I’m never going to play competitively but am interested in having good games and being able to dial it up if the other guy is playing something scary.

What would folks advise adding?

[yukishiro1]

Had enough data to know that DoK needed big warscroll nerfs, but not to know if Kroak was too cheap at 320. <Giggles>

 

[UnholyRevenant]

Okay, not going to lie. Rather Pi**ed that Morathi got a  nerf. They didn't have enough data to change kroak but meanwhile decided that in 3 months Morathi was too good. Its not like you pay 600pts or anything. 

[yukishiro1]

Honestly, I doubt that's the case. One or the other is/was just a typo/mistake. The DoK book was very likely already sent to the printers by the time BR: Morathi was out.

[DJMoose]

15 minutes ago, UnholyRevenant said:

Okay, not going to lie. Rather Pi**ed that Morathi got a  nerf. They didn't have enough data to change kroak but meanwhile decided that in 3 months Morathi was too good. Its not like you pay 600pts or anything. 

Yeah Morathi didn't need that rend nerf. Maybe it was an oversight amongst other things that we've noticed in these images.

[Milano]

36 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

Yeah Morathi didn't need that rend nerf. Maybe it was an oversight amongst other things that we've noticed in these images.

I really hope that. Trying to stay positive and adapt to new play styles, but Morathi being nerfed so quickly leaves a very bitter taste to me.

[Jacek]

I personally ike the changes.

Now heroes (especially medusas) are AWESOME !

100 pts for wizard with 2 unbinds, nice anty-horde shooting and good hitting. Add 60 pts to give her 13 W total, imact hits on charge and dmg aura. I did not see that avatar scroll but if they add 1 to prayers - we get heart of fury practically guaranteed with circlet (re-roll 1s) + it will be very easy to animate it (as well with re-rolls 1). It can hit hard as well so it is not "wasted" points.

Maybe we dont have alpha strike now but with good positioning etc. we can afford to wait few turns to get more blood rites. I myself prefer snakes (and I dont have much WA / SoS) and it seems they will be playable and will be able to hit hard as well.

So what if now we have wholly within? All new books go in that direction (same as command trait AND artefact for each temple). Now it seems that very good players can acheive very good results while bad players will not. I think that is a good thing because it makes us to think what we want to use in the army list and how we want to use it.  Mirror dance can also help solving the problem with slow cauldrons so we have a way to make it work most of the time (can even teleport heroes from combat).

[DantePQ]

Iron Circlet doesn't work on Heart of Fury. 

Heart of Fury is invocation that a priest can summon on 3+ not a prayer 

Iron Circlet only allow to re-rolls 1s on prayers. 

BTW book is amazing, and big boost to DoK. 

[JackStreicher]

7 hours ago, Mcprowlington said:

Definitely an error that will be FAQ'd, no way it's supposed to be that bad. I assume the last part was included in an earlier draft where it was supposed to be done in the hero phase 

I don‘t think it‘s an error. It disallows you to move if you have a double turn, yet in every other case you can move (next movement phase includes your enemy‘s)

[Bonesplitterz]

Is it me or we can summon a Heart of Fury each turn ? If we’re lucky with rolls we can have, for exemple, 3 Heart of Fury on the table by turn 3?

it’s said that we can only try to summon one per turn and we must have a model available that is not already on the battlefield. Am I reading this right ?

[Jacek]

14 minutes ago, Bonesplitterz said:

Is it me or we can summon a Heart of Fury each turn ? If we’re lucky with rolls we can have, for exemple, 3 Heart of Fury on the table by turn 3?

it’s said that we can only try to summon one per turn and we must have a model available that is not already on the battlefield. Am I reading this right ?

and most probably pay 80 pts for each

[Sprues&Brews]

Our full review of the battletome is now live!

https://spruesandbrews.com/2021/02/13/new-battletome-daughters-of-khaine-2021-review/

Plus our video flick through the book!

 

[foxicious]

1 hour ago, Bonesplitterz said:

Is it me or we can summon a Heart of Fury each turn ? If we’re lucky with rolls we can have, for exemple, 3 Heart of Fury on the table by turn 3?

it’s said that we can only try to summon one per turn and we must have a model available that is not already on the battlefield. Am I reading this right ?

Would that not be prevented by it being unique?

Edited February 13, 2021 by foxicious

[Fred1245]

4 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Just because theres busted stuff in Fangs of Sotek/ Changehost, KO doesnt mean ours should be. Those books are probably due a big nerfing this May/June. Id rather be a competitive book with a high ceiling where i have to use my brains and a bit of luck than just roll over the table with my model rules where no one can do a damn thing. It means we can more or less play the same models without having a bunch of em go thru a major nerf. A lot of DoK previously ran on autopilot

The thing is the old book was more competitive AND had a higher ceiling. Before there were all sorts of tricks you could pull in the movement phase. Now you have to stay within 12" of a hero or lose half your stats. It's both less engaging and less powerful than it was thanks to all the incredibly restrictive bubbles and adding even more 'coinflip' buffs.

It's pretty ironic that you'd say we get to play the same models without having a bunch of them go through a major nerf when a bunch of them just went through a major nerf. Honestly, Bloodwracks and Slaughter Cauldrons are the only units that didn't get worse either directly or through the witchbrew nerf.

Normally I'd be on the 'wait and play some games' side of the fence, but the book isn't any different. There's nothing new here, just restrictions and nerfs placed on old abilities.

[Bonesplitterz]

Two changes I didn’t see at the first read of the leak pages... Zealot’s rage and Slaughterer’s Strength are melee weapon only now.  

[Fred1245]

2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Iron Circlet doesn't work on Heart of Fury. 

Heart of Fury is invocation that a priest can summon on 3+ not a prayer 

Iron Circlet only allow to re-rolls 1s on prayers. 

BTW book is amazing, and big boost to DoK. 

I mean...if you were running 4 bloodwrack shrines and 40 blood stalkers I could see how it would be a boost. If you were running Witch Aelves, Sisters of Slaughter, Blood Sisters, Hag Queens, Shadowstalkers, Doomfires, or Morathi not so much.

[DantePQ]

Every unit got better or cheaper. Battalions are still very useful for many reasons 

Cauldron Guard - cheapest way to get lower drop, extra CP, extra item and very good ability that makes your Lifetakers much better.

Slaughter Troupe - retreat and charge is massive, you don't need Hag Queen that much these days so Slaughter Queen slots nicely in to cast prayers and Heart of Fury 

Shadowpatrol - much better as Warlocks are cheaper and have +1 to cast while 5+ and Lifetakers are better. Also you can teleport units out of combat with it now 

Scathcoven -  free BS immunity and quite flexible organisation

Vyperic Guard - enables low drop Melusai army and for 140 it's bascially 1 extra CP and lower drops. 

Sisters of Slaughter - still amazing

Blood Sisters - much better compared to old book - as you have ways to have them buffed with extra attacks one of them (Morathi buff) is quite easy to achieve, also with Ironscale they are faster and cheaper 130 is very good. Horde discount is not an issue - they were 480 for 20 before, now they are 520 for 20, and any time you don't run 20 they are cheaper 

Doomfire - actually better, spell got a it but you almost never used them - now they are bascially a 10W spellcaster with +1 to cast, quite good. 

Morathi - still a boss, rend1-2 doesn't matter much she got such a huge warscroll boost anyway. 

Wholly within on HaggNarr stuff doesn't matter much as it won't impact how Hag Nar plays - you castle up, soak up dmg and they run&charge. Competitive wise it very similar, maybe change some army composition, but with better Morathi and how crazy Heart of Fury could be (as you can put it up on the board and move units into it's aura) HaggNarr will be much better - especially with how insane Shadowstalkers are. Lifetakers are another unit people sleep on  - extra rend and extra attacks thanks to Morathi is huge, 10 of them cost 160 can drop them anywhere near Morathi and they are +1rend, +1dmg on charge  and +1A from Morathi with possible upside of casting Mindrazor. 

Also other temples got buffs - Khailebron, Khelt-Ner could be amazing, Draichi Ganethas well. 

Like I've been playing DoK since old book was released won a fair share of tournaments (including London GT 2019) and this book is big buff. My go-to competitive list will be like this I think 

Morathi - Mindrazor 

Hag Queen on Cauldron - Blessing of Khaine, Ulfuri 

10 Witches with bucklers 

10 Witches with bucklers 

30 Sisters of Slaughter with bucklers/knives 

10 Stalkers 

9 Shadowstalkers

9 Shadowstalkers

Heart of Fury 

Extra CP 

But I have highly competitive Melusai list as well. 

So many exciting stuff, bascially the only thing that was nerfed is Witchbrew and Witches everything else got much better or cheaper or in some cases both. 

 

[Gecktron]

I have been playing my Daughters of Khaine since the original launch and im pretty happy with the changes. I really like Khinerai and Melusai, but I always felt pressured into taking Hagg Nar and taking Witch Aelfs/Sisters of Slaughter, no matter what. 

With the changes to the subfactions, point costs, army building it feels like we can see more diversity in list building in the future. I dont need an S-tier army, I just want to build a list with models that I like and have some fun. And the new stuff really helps with that. I like that we now can take the improved Blood Stalkers as battleline option, and that we also have the option to chose between Ironscales or Medusas for Melusai armies. 

[5kaven5lave]

Love the look of that Khelt Nar. Reflecting MWs back on a 1 to hit looks mean on a big block of Blood Sisters. Unmodified 1s - is that before or after rerolls?

Ah hang on, I have ‘rerolls before modifiers’ in my head for some reason, think that’s it. Either way, gonna try this tomorrow:

Khelt Nar

160 Bloodwrack Shrine General Arcane Mastery Mindrazor

220 HQoC 1001 Dark Blessings Martyr’s Sacrifice

110 Ironscale

360 Sisters of Slaughter x30

390 Blood Sisters x15

260 Blood Sisters x10

140 Bloodstalkers x5

100 Khainite Shadowstalkers

80 Heart EP

40 Snake ES

140 Scathcoven

5 free Heartrenders

5 drops

2000

Edited February 13, 2021 by 5kaven5lave