AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Tropical Ghost General]

3 hours ago, Graywater said:

My concern (from a competitive gamer perspective) is that you just dont have the bodies on the board,

Yeah, in the test games this was an issue, but tbh the 2 x 5 stalkers worked well enough for throwaway objective holders. 

Morathi teleported in was amazing, but the best bit of khailebron was the -1 to shooting armywide.

The 5+ ward save from Hagg Narr requires a beefy general to make the best use of the command trait, plain medusa is too squishy. So it means making the medusa into a shrine medusa. You also need to have one of the other cauldrons (hag ideally) for the bloodshield and witchbrew. So that's around 500pts on 2 leaders just to buff make the most of Hagg Narr. 

I'm not married to the temple nest battalion, but the 2nd relic and CP is handy, as is potentially having all your battleline in a single drop (if in Khalieborn). The mortals on 1s, did a surprising amount of damage across the 3 games, way more than you'd think just from looking at the ability. 

I could run a Hagg Narr snek bomb: Bloodwrack Shrine, Morathi, Hag Queen Blood Cauldron, and then 3 units of blood sisters. It's 6 drops, much more brutal and efficient, but as you pointed out before, it lacks any bodies for leaving on objectives, for screening and stuff.  

Tbh, I think if stalkers had 2 shots, or DoK had any command abilities that could be used (only slaughter queen or morarthi as general having any is old book syndrome sadness), then the lack of bodies in the list might be offset a bit. 

I think I need to try the hagg narr snek bomb and see what flaws it brings up in game, as on paper it's hard to truly tell 😂

[Graywater]

36 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Yeah, in the test games this was an issue, but tbh the 2 x 5 stalkers worked well enough for throwaway objective holders. 

Morathi teleported in was amazing, but the best bit of khailebron was the -1 to shooting armywide.

The 5+ ward save from Hagg Narr requires a beefy general to make the best use of the command trait, plain medusa is too squishy. So it means making the medusa into a shrine medusa. You also need to have one of the other cauldrons (hag ideally) for the bloodshield and witchbrew. So that's around 500pts on 2 leaders just to buff make the most of Hagg Narr. 

I'm not married to the temple nest battalion, but the 2nd relic and CP is handy, as is potentially having all your battleline in a single drop (if in Khalieborn). The mortals on 1s, did a surprising amount of damage across the 3 games, way more than you'd think just from looking at the ability. 

I could run a Hagg Narr snek bomb: Bloodwrack Shrine, Morathi, Hag Queen Blood Cauldron, and then 3 units of blood sisters. It's 6 drops, much more brutal and efficient, but as you pointed out before, it lacks any bodies for leaving on objectives, for screening and stuff.  

Tbh, I think if stalkers had 2 shots, or DoK had any command abilities that could be used (only slaughter queen or morarthi as general having any is old book syndrome sadness), then the lack of bodies in the list might be offset a bit. 

I think I need to try the hagg narr snek bomb and see what flaws it brings up in game, as on paper it's hard to truly tell 😂

I run the shrine and cauldron combo for the reasons you listed. It's expensive but effective. I dont think khailebron is bad, but their -1 to hit is dependent on what your opponent is bringing. Its great against shooting armies, but does nothing for you against melee. I much prefer a buff thats always effective over one that is sometimes. Curious to see a teleporting morathi. What was the thinking/her purpose in doing so? 

[DJMoose]

2 hours ago, Graywater said:

I run the shrine and cauldron combo for the reasons you listed. It's expensive but effective. I dont think khailebron is bad, but their -1 to hit is dependent on what your opponent is bringing. Its great against shooting armies, but does nothing for you against melee. I much prefer a buff thats always effective over one that is sometimes. Curious to see a teleporting morathi. What was the thinking/her purpose in doing so? 

The advantage of using Morathi in a Khaelibron list is you can teleport her and then transform her on your first turn, making her the bully and distraction carnifex she is meant to be. Instead of having her fly across the board and get wittled down she will immediately be up in your opponent's business and will last for at least two battlerounds. Allowing the rest of your army to do what they need to do.

Edited September 13, 2020 by DJMoose

[Graywater]

10 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

The advantage of using Morathi in a Khaelibron list is you can teleport her and then transform her on your first turn, making her the bully and distraction carnifex she is meant to be. Instead of having her fly across the board and get wittled down she will immediately be up in your opponent's business and will last for at least two battlerounds. Allowing the rest of your army to do what they need to do.

She has a 14 inch move though. I guess I've never had an issue performing that role without needing the command point teleport. Most missions are 18 inches away, so that leaves a 4 inch charge. And even on the 24 inch missions you can surround her in such a way to get 3 or so extra inches after the transform, still leaving less than a 9 charge. Seems like a lot to sacrifice for an outcome you can mostly replicate without the teleport.

[Tropical Ghost General]

2 hours ago, Graywater said:

What was the thinking/her purpose in doing so? 

@DJMoose pretty much nails the answer. Because DoK really gets going on turn 3, instant teleporting monster morarthi in turn 1, let's the rest of your army sit back until they are revved up to go. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

Plus as the teleport is a command trait, you get it for free each hero phase. It's helpful, but I definitely need to try running my latest list in hagg narr, to see how well it goes. 

[Graywater]

26 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Plus as the teleport is a command trait, you get it for free each hero phase. It's helpful, but I definitely need to try running my latest list in hagg narr, to see how well it goes. 

I see. Like I said in my reply to @DJMoose, morathi can get up into position turn 1 pretty reliably without it, which is why I find the hagg nar command ability more powerful. Command points are still useful for charge rerolls, reroll saves of 1, or rerolling hits of 1 before turn 3. But thats just my experience/ opinion.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Graywater

[Ggom]

Has anyone noticed that the witch aelves and sister of slaughter in Morgwaeth’s blade coven come on 28mm bases, but standard witch aelves and sisters come on 25mm bases?

Does this portend bigger bases? Or just a slip up on GW’s part?

While I wouldnt want to rebase witch aelves, the bigger base size is handy to improve stability. The models are top heavy and are otherwise prone to tipping over easily.

[Graywater]

16 minutes ago, Ggom said:

Has anyone noticed that the witch aelves and sister of slaughter in Morgwaeth’s blade coven come on 28mm bases, but standard witch aelves and sisters come on 25mm bases?

Does this portend bigger bases? Or just a slip up on GW’s part?

While I wouldnt want to rebase witch aelves, the bigger base size is handy to improve stability. The models are top heavy and are otherwise prone to tipping over easily.

I hadnt noticed, and its a little concerning. I will not be happy if I have to rebase models. Furthermore, 25mm is such a huge advantage for horde style units that itd be a big blow to both sisters of slaughter and witch elves. Id happily trade the small boost in stability to allow an extra rank of attackers.

[Barnie25]

Hi guys,

I am a returning player and am picking up some DoK from a buddy of mine in a few weeks.

My initial haul consists of the contents of the previous battleforce box (with the Cauldron magnetized to be able to run all options) and Morathi. I wanted to have some input for what my next purchases should be - getting a ****** ton of sisters and witches is probably the obvious answer.

Our local tournament games are sized between 1000 and 1250  points. What would I need to get to expand my collection to run an effective 1250 list and how could I grow that into a 2000 point list?

Is trying to build a non Hagg Nar list not advised? I do not need to have the most competitive army however I do would like to be able to compete.

Is a hybrid snakes / witches army currently viable? If so what would I need to buy in order to build such a list?

 

 

 

[Belper]

On 9/14/2020 at 9:55 PM, Ggom said:

Has anyone noticed that the witch aelves and sister of slaughter in Morgwaeth’s blade coven come on 28mm bases, but standard witch aelves and sisters come on 25mm bases?

Does this portend bigger bases? Or just a slip up on GW’s part?

While I wouldnt want to rebase witch aelves, the bigger base size is handy to improve stability. The models are top heavy and are otherwise prone to tipping over easily.

Bigger base sizes would be a MASSIVE nerf to witch aelves and sisters of slaughter. Not being able to fight in two ranks would mean a unit of 30 would be significantly overcosted at 300.

[GrimDork]

On 9/15/2020 at 2:55 AM, Ggom said:

Has anyone noticed that the witch aelves and sister of slaughter in Morgwaeth’s blade coven come on 28mm bases, but standard witch aelves and sisters come on 25mm bases?

Does this portend bigger bases? Or just a slip up on GW’s part?

I'm not sure it's either. From GW's perspective, Morgwaeth's blade coven has a warscroll if you want to use its models in AoS. Just because they are witch aelves/sis of slaughter doesn't mean that all witch aelves/sis of slaughter should match their base size, as they are in effect a unit of named characters.

WA/SoS were already reboxed for Aos so doubt we'll see a change.

[Lucentia]

I doubt the base sizes will be changed at this point.  However the mechanical difference between 25mm bases and larger ones for massed infantry is such an irritating technicality with such huge impact on the game that I kinda wish they would just scrap all the 25mm bases across the ranges.

[Ggom]

On 9/20/2020 at 6:23 AM, GrimDork said:

I'm not sure it's either. From GW's perspective, Morgwaeth's blade coven has a warscroll if you want to use its models in AoS. Just because they are witch aelves/sis of slaughter doesn't mean that all witch aelves/sis of slaughter should match their base size, as they are in effect a unit of named characters.

WA/SoS were already reboxed for Aos so doubt we'll see a change.

Ye, although this does mean we have less flexibility just swapping in the models, which I really like, into our battleline if we arent running the named warscroll.

On 9/20/2020 at 8:50 AM, Lucentia said:

I doubt the base sizes will be changed at this point.  However the mechanical difference between 25mm bases and larger ones for massed infantry is such an irritating technicality with such huge impact on the game that I kinda wish they would just scrap all the 25mm bases across the ranges.

I agree. I think if we are worried about it being a nerf they could always update the warscroll to buff us in a different way. 
 

Also... isnt Morgwaeth herself also on the wrong base size? Or are hags supposed to be on 28mm?

Edited September 28, 2020 by Ggom

[RUNCMD]

On 9/2/2020 at 2:27 PM, Chumphammer said:

Blood stalkers are not worth the points so unless its just the models you have dont use them. Temple nest is also a bit crappy atm so probably not worth it.

Looking at DOK and wondering about this comment. Could you elaborate as to why Blood Stalkers aren't worth the points and why Temple nest is a bit crappy? Is it because of the need for the x2 units of the Stalkers?

Seems everyone here is suggesting that Blood Sisters is the way to go for the snek side of DOK.

[Graywater]

9 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Looking at DOK and wondering about this comment. Could you elaborate as to why Blood Stalkers aren't worth the points and why Temple nest is a bit crappy? Is it because of the need for the x2 units of the Stalkers?

Seems everyone here is suggesting that Blood Sisters is the way to go for the snek side of DOK.

Blood stalkers are garbage because they do an average of 2 wounds to a 5+ save unit for 120 points. Easily our most inefficient unit compared to their sisters, the blood sisters, who deal mortals, actually benefit from buffs our army can give out(most of our bonuses buff melee), and can be battleline.

Temple nest is troubled for a few reasons. First, yes, needing 2 of those blood stalker units is a definite negative. Between your "tax" of the two stalker units and the battalion points, you've spent 20% of the total points of your army in nothing substantial. Second, the battalion wants you to focus on snakes, which is something many of us want to do, judging by the responses in this thread. However, snakes add up in points quickly, and you can fast find yourself lacking points for battleline. You can fix this by taking a medusa as a general, but then you are missing out on the only command abilities we have in our army because both your slaughter queen and morathi need to be the general to use their command ability. So you lose a ton of efficiency by losing the hero phase activation having one of those generals gives you. If you take a small enough temple nest to fit your battalion and still have the slaughter queen general with requisite troops, then you might as well not take the battalion at all because you're getting so little out of it. 

[Chumphammer]

3 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Looking at DOK and wondering about this comment. Could you elaborate as to why Blood Stalkers aren't worth the points and why Temple nest is a bit crappy? Is it because of the need for the x2 units of the Stalkers?

Seems everyone here is suggesting that Blood Sisters is the way to go for the snek side of DOK.

Graywater gave a solid response. Only thing I would add is they also only get 1 ranged shot each doing MW on a 6 (not additional)

That sucks for 120pts. Shadow warriors are 110pts and have 10 shots with rend 1/damage 1 also and if deployed in terrain, better to hit .

For 140pts realm lords get sentinals...

Bloodstalkers need a rework

[Ggom]

Although, with the new boxed set on the way, I’m betting the new melusai ironshard wll unlock snakes for battleline, while also offering relevant buffs. 
 

We may also get rules updates with the new campaign book. (And watch as they get invalidated in a year with 3.0)

[RUNCMD]

@Graywater thanks for the explanation. Makes sense and I really agree with your point about getting little out of the Battalion for such high points. doesn;t make sense.

@Chumphammer (great name) couldn't agree more about the shadow warriors and love what they can do, going to 20 as well is even better

Thanks guys for the input.

@Ggom I was thinking the same having looked at what gets you battle line etc on Azyr, in a DOK list, and then looking at the Shadow and Pain box. Hoping that they also come out and say that any new battalions etc that are valid in that box are valid in matched play after it's release, as they have done just this past week with other Battalions.

Edit: Answered my own question re: Building what models, used my eyes and looked at the GW site, also just ended up commiting and buying a start collecting box.

Edited September 29, 2020 by RUNCMD

[Kaleun]

On 9/1/2020 at 5:39 PM, Chumphammer said:

New list I am going to try. Based around my one from the 1 dayer but with some tweeks. 

Hagg Nar
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (Blessing of khaine) (290)
Bloodwrack Shrine (Shadowstone, mindrazor) - General, devoted Disciples (210)
Morgwaeth Blade-coven, Crimson Rejuvenation: 140 (to keep Shrine/Cauldron going)
Celestant Prime (300) (Deal with backline shooters/target Sisters cant get to)
30 Sisters of Slaughter (Bucklers) (300)
20 Blood Sisters (480)
5 Blood sisters (140) (I went with 5 sisters over 10 WE. They have better save/same wounds and have better attack output if on their own)
5 Doomfire Warlocks (Steed of shadows) (140) Still not sure this over a 2nd MEdusa. I love the medusa attacks but usually wont take effect until turn 2/3. I like the 2nd Shrine but I just cant fit it in. Warlocks can be a fast backline unit or sneaky obj stealer  with steed of shadows) 

9 Drops (as I think Morgwaeth counts a 2) 
2 Casts, 2 dispels. 2 witch brews. 2 prayers



 

Lovin that list! Not convinced about the Celestant Prime though. The model ist quite expensive and you have to get him to combat also. Cant the job be done by Heartrenders? I mean for the pricetag you can have 3 times 5 and let spears fly. 

Can you tell us your experiences with this list?

[Graywater]

3 hours ago, Kaleun said:

Lovin that list! Not convinced about the Celestant Prime though. The model ist quite expensive and you have to get him to combat also. Cant the job be done by Heartrenders? I mean for the pricetag you can have 3 times 5 and let spears fly. 

Can you tell us your experiences with this list?

I mean its fairly expensive, but it serves a purpose nothing else in our army does. The celestant prime is good to throw out aoe mortals and can threaten an assault from the rear. This is big because the rest of our army has to fight through the front lines of the opponent, so hero buff pieces and artillery are usually safe behind the screens. But the prime can come in and really threaten that. And with the primes ability to choose your roll result once per turn, you're guaranteed to make up to a 12 inch charge when you drop in. Heartrenders are somewhat similar, but play a harassment and objective grabbing role instead. They'll do some chip damage to a hero, but are unlikely to actually flat out kill anything but the smallest of heroes. The prime is a scalpel to the hammer that is the rest of our units. 

[Sapca]

Prime has large 18" +1 bravery bubble for the girls (stacks with avatar/cauldron) and -2 for enemies on drop. This makes Mindrazor stick fully against heroes/death most of time. Use it, abuse it, love it. Blocks of SoS love it, small units of WE's love it also.

Secondary function is artillery against slow moving stuff, not even starting in air. He's conditionally better than Morathi (and cheaper) for this. Spells can be failed and unbound, his comet does not. He migh be better in DoK army than in SCE...

Warlocks... I love models but they always failed for me for some reason (playing vs Khorne/Death mostly I guess). I prefer 1-2x Khinerai to support Prime, drop with him and step next to his side to block some counter pileins/charges, their bases are large enough.  So he doesn't vaporize immediately...

[Kaleun]

@Graywater and @Sapca I see your points. I am not totally on board however. Warmachines are a lot cheaper then the Prime and I wouldnt spend 300 points to trade for a 180 point warmachine. In my head I encounter the problem that the prime drops into the enemy backline and is seperated from the main army. Why wouldnt that 2000 point enemy army turn on the 300 point model and erase the prime first and then pivot for the remaining 1700 point DoK army?

I found that this is the main weakness of most stormcast players. They seperate their 2000 point army in smaller chunks and scatter them on the battlefield. A well led army would take them chunk by chunk in my opinion. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Kaleun

[Graywater]

4 hours ago, Kaleun said:

@Graywater and @Sapca I see your points. I am not totally on board however. Warmachines are a lot cheaper then the Prime and I wouldnt spend 300 points to trade for a 180 point warmachine. In my head I encounter the problem that the prime drops into the enemy backline and is seperated from the main army. Why wouldnt that 2000 point enemy army turn on the 300 point model and erase the prime first and then pivot for the remaining 1700 point DoK army?

I found that this is the main weakness of most stormcast players. They seperate their 2000 point army in smaller chunks and scatter them on the battlefield. A well led army would take them chunk by chunk in my opinion. 

That is the point of the prime though, present a threat from an area besides the main front. This forces the opponent to deploy with him in mind, or they ignore him and you can run him roughshod through their key elements. 

Looking at him in a pure points vs points mindset is a mistake in my opinion. Yes hes more than most individual war machines, but that doesn't mean much. For example, ill take my 1700 points of daughters against a force of obr if the prime holds off the catapults. Many armies are like this. If the prime threatens/destroys the lords of the lodge babysitter heroes, skink star priests, the lord of change, or any of these other key pieces, I feel very confident with the rest of my force.

Your point about splitting the army apart isn't invalid, but I think daughters handle this better than others. 1700 points of daughters punch above their weight class whereas your example of stormcast do not. So I dont see losing 300 points to take out/threaten key pieces as problematic in most matchups.

[Chumphammer]

18 hours ago, Kaleun said:

Lovin that list! Not convinced about the Celestant Prime though. The model ist quite expensive and you have to get him to combat also. Cant the job be done by Heartrenders? I mean for the pricetag you can have 3 times 5 and let spears fly. 

Can you tell us your experiences with this list?

Not played my DOK since my one day thing last month

if you drop the prime down turn 2 or 3 (I try for 3) then he can pretty much take out anything you throw him into (bar like Gotrek lol) and is guaranteed the charge with his special rule for picking the dice number

He is a glass hammer with no save vs MW so might likely die afterwards