AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[whispersofblood]

31 minutes ago, Nasrod said:

You didn't actually allocate points for Temple Nest here. I think the best list you can fit similar to this structure would be:

Morathi - 600

Medusa - 140

20 Sisters - 480

5 Sisters - 140

5 Sisters - 140

5 Stalkers - 140 

5 Stalkers - 140

Spell Portal - 80 / 5 Heartenders 90

Nest - 130

1990/2000 or 2000/2000

Portal if you value the 2 drop, Heartrenders if you want the extra mobility to help with objectives, which you probably need as this list is low on bodies and wounds count. 

True forgot to check the points for the battalion and then it just left my mind. 

Khalibron
Morathi: 600; Withering
Bloodwrack Medusa; 140 General, Shadow Stone, Mindrazor, Mistress of Illusion
15 Blood Sisters: 420
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Sisters: 140
10 Blood Stalkers: 280
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
Temple nest 130

I don't think 20 sisters is a good unit btw its too unwieldly, and truthfully the main combat unit in this faction is Morathi. Also, you don't want to be in a situation where you have to advance if you don't take the first turn. The more Sisters you take vs Stalkers the heavier you need to be advancing and charging, and since this build doesn't actually have very many bodies you want fewer combats not more rounds. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by whispersofblood

[Nasrod]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

True forgot to check the points for the battalion and then it just left my mind. 

Khalibron
Morathi: 600; Withering
Bloodwrack Medusa; 140 General, Shadow Stone, Mindrazor, Mistress of Illusion
15 Blood Sisters: 420
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Sisters: 140
10 Blood Stalkers: 280
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
Temple nest 130

I don't think 20 sisters is a good unit btw its too unwieldly, and truthfully the main combat unit in this faction is Morathi. Also, you don't want to be in a situation where you have to advance if you don't take the first turn. The more Sisters you take vs Stalkers the heavier you need to be advancing and charging, and since this build doesn't actually have very many bodies you want fewer combats not more rounds. 

Need 2 units of Stalkers for legal Temple Nest. 20 Sisters is probably the best discount in the game. I agree it's unwieldy but the difference between 15 bodies and 20 is 60 points. 60 points for another 10 wounds is crazy, especially since shooting meta dictates you go MinSUs to make shooting ineffecient or MaxSUs able to survice firing squad. Splitting the Stalkers into 2 sets of 5 = Less targets.  If anything, dropping from 15 to 10 Sisters in order to obtain a 2nd 10 man unit of Stalkers could be okay, or bump to one large group of 15 to capitalize on Morathi CA.

Motathi may be your main force but she needs to use her CA or else she isn't worth her points, and the big Sisters block needs as many bodies as possible to try and make it in range with a sizeable amount of fight. 

Either way, the sheer fact we're trying to squeeze all these in points wise is a huge red flag to the real issues here: Snakes are too expensive, fragile, not offensively powerful enough to threaten in MinSU blocks, and too low on model count to bully objectives. Not all of these weaknesses need to be addressed, but until one or two is, this is way more effort than Witch Elves backed by Hags and a Cauldron for far less result. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Nasrod

[Graywater]

5 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

How did you find the new Morathi? Feel she pulls her 600pts weight?

New morathi i think will be good. Going to take some practice to place her properly. Little morathi's CA is a welcome change, but I know I have to resist the temptation to just spend it every time because the CP is still useful for other things like charge rerolls and we don't get many of them.

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Its just not a good list, and it obviously gets exposed against speed, like I said earlier about Blood Sisters. As mediocre as HoS are now those are competitive lists, and this list is a high drop army that needs to go first. The structure issues are obvious from the get go. It is slightly unfortunate that you plaid in effect the same style of army twice though. Why take Khailebron if you aren't going to use Temple Nest to get the drops way down? I would say in these examples unfortunately the list is the first issue.

Khalibron
Morathi: 600; Withering
Bloodwrack Medusa; 140 General, Shadow Stone, Mindrazor, Mistress of Illusion
15 Blood Sisters: 420
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Sisters: 140
10 Blood Stalkers: 280
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
5 Blood Stalkers: 140

So I took khailebron for a few reasons. First, I wanted to play without hagg nar to see how the loss of the 5+ would be felt (a lot) and because I didn't have a durable body to put that onto anyways. With a lot fewer models on board, I knew board presence would be an issue. I liked the CA teleport to help combat that. It didn't come into play unfortunately because I got penned in each time. The -1 to hit from shooting wouldve also been helpful, but there was no shooting. 

As for the list, its a combination of a few factors. Temple nest wouldve been nice, but as I said, the lack of bodies was painfully felt, and Temple nest makes me lose 5 additional snakes. It also makes me take an additional 5 bow snakes, which 1. I dont have, and 2. Means even fewer of the melee snakes i valued higher. I dont agree with 20 snakes being unwieldy. I've been using a unit of 20 quite effective for 2 years now. I also don't understand why 20 is too unwieldy, but 15 is fine, considering the army needs more models and you're leaving the 5 snakes for 60 points offer. I also wanted to see how bow snakes would perform, and I figured that if im going to see them do well, it's going to be in a big unit like that. 

There's no sense for me to play the list if it isn't practiced against a competent list/opponent. Im trying to see if snakes are at all viable in a competitive standpoint, which I don't think they are. Elves are still the best.

[InSaint]

I have been trying a modified classic Morathi Khailebron list with 20 Blood Stalkers which has been somewhat effective (so far).

Temple Khailebron 

• Morathi-Khaine (Mirror Dance)
• Shadow Queen
• Hag Queen on Cauldron (Sacrament of Blood), Thousand and One Blessing - General
• 20 Blood Stalkers
• 10 Witches
• 10 Witches
• 10 Witches
• 10 Witches
• 1 Additional CP

Total: 1980 - To contest for Triumph

Try to get Realm of Beast for the +2" charge on cast and CP to keep Shadow Queen in top form.

If your opponent give you the 1st turn in hopes of obtaining double turn you have 2 options;

1. Teleport mirror dance swap the Shadow Queen to tarpit and kill. With the buff to the Shadow Queen, she is more potent then ever.
2. If the opponent has good magical defenses, you can instead teleport your stalkers and pump 80 3+/3+/-1, 6s MW shots at key targets. 24" range is quite generous, your stalkers can hang back slightly for your Witches to move + run up during your movement phase to guard your Blood Stalkers blob. 

If your opponent takes the 1st turn, they usually have some shenanigans in mind which you can usually figure out when you see their army list. So do remember to use your witches to bubble wrap your precious stalkers! Also +1 save from the cauldron and -1 to hit during shooting helps with some survivability.

[whispersofblood]

33 minutes ago, Graywater said:

New morathi i think will be good. Going to take some practice to place her properly. Little morathi's CA is a welcome change, but I know I have to resist the temptation to just spend it every time because the CP is still useful for other things like charge rerolls and we don't get many of them.

1. So I took khailebron for a few reasons. First, I wanted to play without hagg nar to see how the loss of the 5+ would be felt (a lot) and because I didn't have a durable body to put that onto anyways. With a lot fewer models on board, I knew board presence would be an issue. I liked the CA teleport to help combat that. It didn't come into play unfortunately because I got penned in each time. The -1 to hit from shooting wouldve also been helpful, but there was no shooting. 
2. As for the list, its a combination of a few factors. Temple nest wouldve been nice, but as I said, the lack of bodies was painfully felt, and Temple nest makes me lose 5 additional snakes. It also makes me take an additional 5 bow snakes, which 1. I dont have, and 2. Means even fewer of the melee snakes i valued higher. I dont agree with 20 snakes being unwieldy. I've been using a unit of 20 quite effective for 2 years now. I also don't understand why 20 is too unwieldy, but 15 is fine, considering the army needs more models and you're leaving the 5 snakes for 60 points offer. I also wanted to see how bow snakes would perform, and I figured that if im going to see them do well, it's going to be in a big unit like that. 
3. There's no sense for me to play the list if it isn't practiced against a competent list/opponent. Im trying to see if snakes are at all viable in a competitive standpoint, which I don't think they are. Elves are still the best.

1. There are decent reasons to Khailebron, and I am generally for pushing back against common held beliefs which is why I didn't critique the choice, just the lack on synergy with the benefits of that choice.
2. a) Determining turn order with a fragile army is more important than 5 more bodies. As you say you didn't get to choose and you got run over. Before you can make a statement about the competitiveness of a build you need to nail down the basic elements that let the archetype play the game. Choosing turn order is THE most important mechanism for a fragile army.  You've pointed it out yourself in this situation because you didn't go first got penned in and the thing you wanted to do become irrelevant just like that. If you want to play snakes I don't think Temple Nest is non-negotiable. 

b) Similarly you need the ability to do dmg outside combat, I understand model availability is always an issue but I think again before writing something off you need to give it its due, proxy if need be to really test it out. 5 stalkers are a decent backfield zoning unit, and light combat unit. In fragile armies you need units you can sacrifice, and MSU escort units are critical for this so your hammers can keep hammering. Which brings me to 20 Sisters. Max units sizes are good when the extra points over what you will get into combat brings outsized durability. Otherwise the trade off is engaging multiple units, controlling opponent pile-in moves, and forcing the opponent to inefficiently split their attack dice. If you have one max sized unit target priority is easy, especially since the opponent can only do 3 wounds to Morathi a turn, where else is the damage going to go? And that is just taking a additional combat unit. When the option is a good shooting unit, that over 3 turns does more dmg then I think the choice is clear. To be honest I, was going to say take two 10 mans and do your best to not engage with other deathballs, with anything other than Morathi, but people like big units for some reason so I left it in.

c) Your experience is useful, but I would caution against being over reliant on the past. The game is in a state of low model, high power units, like the SoB you just faced, being able to chase an objective and engage the enemy is better than one or the other.

3.  I agree, but you need to also have a competitive list yourself or its just down punching. IF you are not taking advantage of Temple Nest's synergy I don't think there is a viable way to load up on Snakes. Beyond a 3-2 level.

This is completely separate from what I think the new DoK top competitive build is. Personally I think Blood Sisters (and most units like them) are bad mechanically and therefore not actually competitive at all.

 

[Graywater]

@whispersofblood we can go back and forth on this, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Deciding who goes first or second wouldn't have mattered in the games I played last night, nor does it matter in a world of teleporting shooting, boardwide spells, and units that move and charge 24+inches if you don't have the units to absorb it. I agree with you that blood sisters struggle in the current state of the game, which compounds the issue with what I was trying to do. My issue with temple nest (and snakes in general) is yes, it gives you low drop, but you do nothing. You have low offensive output, you have few bodies on the board (doesnt matter if you do 2x5, or units of 10), and you lack the defensive bonuses to make those few bodies you have actually live. It just keeps coming back to the fact that this style army doesn't work competitively. Snakes are too expensive to MSU effectively.

This was all done through the lens of seeing if it was even possible to run snakes at tournaments and do more than 3-2. If there was a hint of possibility, I'd be willing to keep trying. But I dont think it takes much to realize im barking up the wrong tree. Maybe someone else can make it work. Im sticking with my hybrid list with elves and snakes through the end of the year and then im moving on from daughters. 

[Ser_namron]

6 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I am also bothered that the Khinerai pretty much stayed the same.

But they didnt, they got worse since they have to drop in by round 3 now lol. 

[JackStreicher]

5 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

But they didnt, they got worse since they have to drop in by round 3 now lol. 

I didn’t spot that. Thx!

[Ser_namron]

Just now, JackStreicher said:

I didn’t spot that. Thx!

Lol sorry to be the bearer of bad news when you were already disappointed 😭

Edited November 11, 2020 by Ser_namron

[JackStreicher]

3 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Lol sorry to be the bearer of bad news when you were already disappointed 😭

No worries! I am still hyped for the Story ^^. Playing won‘t happen until the middle of next year anyways

[whispersofblood]

33 minutes ago, Graywater said:

@whispersofblood we can go back and forth on this, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Deciding who goes first or second wouldn't have mattered in the games I played last night, nor does it matter in a world of teleporting shooting, boardwide spells, and units that move and charge 24+inches if you don't have the units to absorb it. I agree with you that blood sisters struggle in the current state of the game, which compounds the issue with what I was trying to do. My issue with temple nest (and snakes in general) is yes, it gives you low drop, but you do nothing. You have low offensive output, you have few bodies on the board (doesnt matter if you do 2x5, or units of 10), and you lack the defensive bonuses to make those few bodies you have actually live. It just keeps coming back to the fact that this style army doesn't work competitively. Snakes are too expensive to MSU effectively.

This was all done through the lens of seeing if it was even possible to run snakes at tournaments and do more than 3-2. If there was a hint of possibility, I'd be willing to keep trying. But I dont think it takes much to realize im barking up the wrong tree. Maybe someone else can make it work. Im sticking with my hybrid list with elves and snakes through the end of the year and then im moving on from daughters. 

You don't think it would have mattered if you removed a KoS and teleported Morathi into his zone, before your opponent played a turn? I think you are upset, and were hoping for a larger boost. But, that doesn't mean what you got isn't viable if you get the basics right. Ironically the snake build does all the things you're saying make turn order not matter, so clearly that isn't true.

I've been playing a variety of MSU styled armies for many years across many versions of Warhammer: screening, hammers, etc is just one way to play and tbh competitively its not usually what takes events because it doesn't present an intellectual problem to the best players at all. Rob had a Shootcast guy on in the summer and he basically explain from a SCE perspective why, if you have some time to have a listen. SoB are probably the end of this style, so you'll have to make some adjustments anyway.

To be clear I'm not saying a snake dominated build is the competitive choice, but if you do the basics I think its playable, definitely a high skill cap build, but that is better than where the book was before. Like most books the alt-build is less competitive that's why its the alt.

9 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

But they didnt, they got worse since they have to drop in by round 3 now lol. 

See I think there always was a Khinerai build in the book the whole time, its just costly and risky to invest in. Its an alt though, so long as the core of the book is functioning no reason to go that far afield. 

[Graywater]

7 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

You don't think it would have mattered if you removed a KoS and teleported Morathi into his zone, before your opponent played a turn? I think you are upset, and were hoping for a larger boost. But, that doesn't mean what you got isn't viable if you get the basics right. Ironically the snake build does all the things you're saying make turn order not matter, so clearly that isn't true.

I've been playing a variety of MSU styled armies for many years across many versions of Warhammer: screening, hammers, etc is just one way to play and tbh competitively its not usually what takes events because it doesn't present an intellectual problem to the best players at all. Rob had a Shootcast guy on in the summer and he basically explain from a SCE perspective why, if you have some time to have a listen. SoB are probably the end of this style, so you'll have to make some adjustments anyway.

 

The only way that works out is as a gambit for morathi to make the 9 inch charge. Otherwise slaanesh charges across the board turn 1 anyways and in no different of a position. The bow snakes would kill 1 keeper with the extra hero phase activation. However, if he knew I'd be deciding first, all it takes is for him to deploy a hair outside of 24 inches and that plan is out the window. Yet between cogs and the seekers +1 to charge, he only needs to roll a 5 to charge. His 5 inch charge is a lot more reliable than morathi's 9 inch. Youre right in that there is technically an out there. You could CP teleport the snakes into range and then CP the extra shots. Wouldnt be able to teleport morathi then though. Im not saying its 0-5 list. I guess I could've been more clear with that. Im saying that, for anyone looking for a serious competitive list, you arent taking this build over elves. Even if you're someone who wants to force in as many snakes as you can, you're looking at a hybrid elf/snake list.

I've listened to that podcast. I think the difference is the stormcast has the number of MSU units to screen and grab objectives with, and significantly higher damage output with their shooting than we do. Which is fine. I didnt get into daughters to shoot a bunch. They also have access to units with very high movement in palladors and aetherwings, as well as teleports. I feel like we can approximate the list with the khailebron temple nest, but not quite as effective. Theyre probably going to remove that battalion in the next book anyways. I can't think of any other super battalions like that which fit in 2k besides the warpcog Convocations. Seems like they don't want those combo battalions in 2k sized games.

[Ser_namron]

24 minutes ago, Graywater said:

Im not saying its 0-5 list. I guess I could've been more clear with that. Im saying that, for anyone looking for a serious competitive list, you arent taking this build over elves. Even if you're someone who wants to force in as many snakes as you can, you're looking at a hybrid elf/snake list.

 This is the important part. Viable is a gray area, and depends on what you consider it to be. Personally when i say viable i mean viable in a meta driven competetive scene. And in this case they are not viable.  a bunch of witch elves with a cauldron supporting in hag nar is still the way to go, theirs just no getting around that. In fact, im not even sure i wanna run 20 blood sisters anymore like i have the last few years. I'd rather take the normal WE blocks w/ support and include morathi for the spell casting. I think stalkers might replace sisters in most lists and their gonna be brought in light units to snipe heros. 

[Ser_namron]

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (600)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Hag Queen (100)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder

30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
10 x Blood Stalkers (280)

Total: 1990/ 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114


Stalkers are able to support the blocks of WE, or hopefully snipe some heroes. With morathi CP thats still 40 shots a round, not bad. And the rest is the same its always been, run forward and stab with buffs. 

[Mutton]

So I guess we go back to waiting for a proper DoK 2.0 battletome.

*sigh*

[whispersofblood]

8 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (600)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Hag Queen (100)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder

30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
10 x Blood Stalkers (280)

Total: 1990/ 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114


Stalkers are able to support the blocks of WE, or hopefully snipe some heroes. With morathi CP thats still 40 shots a round, not bad. And the rest is the same its always been, run forward and stab with buffs. 

My worry here is that without a CP a savvy opponent with 6 drops could battleshock away a large number of your witches turn 1. I haven't really sat down and worked out what I think the competitive build is yet but I have some idea of the elements the new meta needs the list I have in my head might be 10 or 20 points over. For example I dunno if this list can fight say LRL effectively. 5 dawnriders with speed of hysh could remove 30 Witches after battleshock for a trade of 130 points. Yeah its an interesting problem for sure, but 100% I think the list needs to start with a CP. 

Maybe something like:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar

Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (600)
- Lore of Shadows: The Withering

Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet/Thousand and One Dark Blessing (Depending on local meta)
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine

30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers

10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers

10 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers

10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers

10 x Blood Stalkers (280)

Total: 1880/ 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 105

Leaves room for an extra Hag or more bodies depending on what your local meta is like.
 

 

[Ser_namron]

10 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

My worry here is that without a CP a savvy opponent with 6 drops could battleshock away a large number of your witches turn 1

I think deploying defensively is in our best interest, leaving the 10 sisters up front spread out for a screen in case they can make it in. Some armies might force a battleshock on a unit, but it is what it is, nothing to about it besides screen and then play aggressively once you've got your hags brew.  Your approach with more 10 man blobs might be the way to go, but i like having 2 full units of 30 because it leaves you with a good hammer ( or rather 1000 paper cuts) to punish them on the crack back. 
 

[whispersofblood]

16 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

I think deploying defensively is in our best interest, leaving the 10 sisters up front spread out for a screen in case they can make it in. Some armies might force a battleshock on a unit, but it is what it is, nothing to about it besides screen and then play aggressively once you've got your hags brew.  Your approach with more 10 man blobs might be the way to go, but i like having 2 full units of 30 because it leaves you with a good hammer ( or rather 1000 paper cuts) to punish them on the crack back. 
 

I wonder if it would be better to have the hammer be SoS then so that you can pile-in turn one, fight, fight in the hero phase and then hopefully have cleared the unit.

[Ser_namron]

11 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

I wonder if it would be better to have the hammer be SoS then so that you can pile-in turn one, fight, fight in the hero phase and then hopefully have cleared the unit.

Could definetely be, i tend to run WE for the extra attack while keeping the buckler and using catchecism for extra hits. But i think SoS are just as viable form the utility stand point. Maybe 30/We and 30/SoS for my preferred list. 

[Fred1245]

1 hour ago, Ser_namron said:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (600)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Hag Queen (100)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder

30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
10 x Blood Stalkers (280)

Total: 1990/ 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114


Stalkers are able to support the blocks of WE, or hopefully snipe some heroes. With morathi CP thats still 40 shots a round, not bad. And the rest is the same its always been, run forward and stab with buffs. 

This is about the best list I've been able to come up with for a Morathi build as well. Really when you take morathi all but that last 280 is totally locked in. So basically it becomes a question of 'what's better, 10 Stalkers, 10 Sisters, or 20 Lifetakers?' Oh, and you can go khailebron instead of Hagg Narr, but that's about it.

[Ser_namron]

Morathi/ ironscale 

[Fred1245]

12 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Morathi/ ironscale 

In the Ironscales defense, she makes non-morathi snake lists a bit more viable because of how good the run and charge is and the fact that you were taking a bloodwrack for mindrazor anyway. I just don't know what GW was smoking when they said that statline was worth 140pts when it doesn't even make snakes battleline.

If they hadn't totally ruined crystal touch, she would have been great.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Fred1245

[JackStreicher]

15 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

If they hadn't totally ruined crystal touch, she would have been great.

This

[Ser_namron]

Ya even ignoring the ability to get an extra +1 attack because its a terrible sequence of events to properly use it, the run and charge would have made her useable. But alas, thats not how the cookies crumbled, and she wont see any use outside fun snek lists imo. 

[Mutton]

I understand why they chose to change it. They didn't want 20 snakes charging in and doing almost guaranteed 10+ mortals.

But there's a better answer here than running Crystal Touch into the ground. This whole thing was supposed to make snakes a competitive choice against elves. Maybe with enough yelling, they'll take heed and change it in 6 months.