AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Ser_namron]

Just now, Marcvs said:

other leaders (also considering that you need to at least add a 100 points leader to give her the command trait, so it's actually 1260 points locked by then)

Big true, and if you want those snakes battleline your looking at 140-210. 

[whispersofblood]

I don't think it is necessary to max out the stalker unit. 10 provides 20 shots per activation that is very significant.

[Kitsumy]

Im a idoneth player but also loves dok, and im wondering why is noone thinking about the stormcast and dok batallion? If im not mistaken this would allow to shot 3 times per turn with a 20 archer girl unit for turn and 5-20 stormcast archers.

 

This would do 19mortals and around 43 -1rend wounds. Sure may be lots of points. Morathi, batallion, 20 snakes and lot of neded units there. But only on mortals that would delete any threat out there, kroak,teclis,idoneth turtle etc. Then that huge number on 1rend wound would delete 1/4 of any army in 1 shoting phase.

[Graywater]

28 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

Im a idoneth player but also loves dok, and im wondering why is noone thinking about the stormcast and dok batallion? If im not mistaken this would allow to shot 3 times per turn with a 20 archer girl unit for turn and 5-20 stormcast archers.

 

This would do 19mortals and around 43 -1rend wounds. Sure may be lots of points. Morathi, batallion, 20 snakes and lot of neded units there. But only on mortals that would delete any threat out there, kroak,teclis,idoneth turtle etc. Then that huge number on 1rend wound would delete 1/4 of any army in 1 shoting phase.

Edit: Nevermind me... apparently I dont math so good... nor do I know the slaughter queen

Edited November 10, 2020 by Graywater

[Kitsumy]

Hmm do it works for shotting?  Always thought it was for melee combat lol.

 

Then yes, why isnt noone testing that? Shoting 3 times per turn is amazing.

 

But im thinking, it would need 2 command per turn, so isnt viable. But the batallion dont need command i think

[Graywater]

8 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

Hmm do it works for shotting?  Always thought it was for melee combat lol.

 

Then yes, why isnt noone testing that? Shoting 3 times per turn is amazing.

 

But im thinking, it would need 2 command per turn, so isnt viable. But the batallion dont need command i think

No, you're right, slaughter queen CA doesn't work for shooting. I realized I was way wrong with my math anyways. The combo is way too many points. Im not sure the battalion even fits because morathi and 20 snakes alone is 1160 points. 

 

EDIT: it doesn't. Shadowhammer compact is 910 points minimum without the blood stalkers. So morathi +20 won't work. You could do 15 at best.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Graywater

[Frowny]

1 hour ago, Ser_namron said:

1160 points locked just in those 2 units.

 

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

so it's actually 1260 points locked by then

I think this is not correct- You are likely playing Morathi already, or at least many lists will be. Moreover, this is ONLY using her command ability, so big morathi can still fight and she can still cast all her great spells. 

I see this more as a 560 point investment. Also note it would be fine with only 10-15 blood stalkers, although obviously a little less powerful, but with less eggs in one basket. 

Its also much easier to use than the pile-in twice of melee snakes, who will need to both survive a round of combat with something and both be alive and not have killed their target, which is quite unlikely. Even fighting once, most times big blocks of snakes will already kill stuff, and if not, they aren't that tanky and so are probably dead. 

I also think the Ironscale is not likely actually that good- I'm not sure the snakes really need the extra speed, they already in combat on turn 2 if you want them to be, and even with the command ability, the still aren't quite fast enough for a t1 24inc charge, which are pretty easy to screen out anyway. From experience, 12 inch bubbles like her +1 attack are quite hard to use when I play ogres or nighthaunt, so I don't think that side will be very impactful either. Too many things have to go right- Sisters make the charge, ironscale also makes the charge, ironscale attacks first and kills something, sisters fighting something strong enough to need extra attacks but not so strong that they have to attack first to survive, the extra attack actually mattering at all even if you get it off. 

Even if each of these steps is a 85% success rate, it is still less than a 50% chance of working once you have to stack 6 different 85% steps in a row. 

 

What about something like:

Khailbron, Morathi, Temple Nest:Medusa General, 3x Blood Sisters, 2x Blood Stalkers

2 Drops, with a mean turn 1 ranged alpha from a big unit of blood stalkers that is very difficult to stop, free relocation from the general trait. Depending on if you want 10-15-20 snakes in which units, you could also squeeze in a single hag queen or some aetherwings for objectives if you are OK with 3 drops. 

Edit:I'm also realizing you can do basically the same thing with either of the new battalions - Vyperic Guard or Scathcoven for slightly different variations on low-drop lists. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Frowny

[Ser_namron]

32 minutes ago, Frowny said:

I'm also realizing you can do basically the same thing with either of the new battalions - Vyperic Guard or Scathcoven for slightly different variations on low-drop lists. 

listening to honest wargamer they said those new battalions are only for the new temple. They also said MOrathi might be 2 drops because its 2 models. Im not sure if either of those are true though. Seemed like speculation to me, and the morathi being 2 drops seems nonsensical. 

[Boar]

15 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

listening to honest wargamer they said those new battalions are only for the new temple. They also said MOrathi might be 2 drops because its 2 models. Im not sure if either of those are true though. Seemed like speculation to me, and the morathi being 2 drops seems nonsensical. 

Looking at screens from YT, there is note that Zanthar Kai has access to Temple of Khaine rules  and can include those battalions. Morathi is listed as two units, just taken as sets which is similar to underworlds bands - so 2 drops.

[Graywater]

So I have a tournament on the Saturday after next. The TO has said that whether or not we use the new rules and points from the morathi book will be determined by whether the points are updated in warscroll builder by then. Since there's less than a week between the official release of broken realms and the event, I have no idea if I should expect to be using new rules (honestly I hope not). If its old rules (please), I can run my tried and true list. But im trying to decide what to do if its new rules. Help me out here. Im working on 2 lists currently:

List 1: Hagg nar

Morathi mindrazor

Hag on cauldron with blessing, iron circlet

Bloodwrack shrine- general, withering

30 sisters of slaughter with bucklers

10 sisters of slaughter with bucklers

20 blood sisters

This is my current list except I lose the heartrenders and my decent chance at a triumph for morathi's point increase. Still think its decent, as morathi has 2 options for the hero phase attacks and its a good number of models with survivability.

 

List 2: new temple? Khailebron? 

Morathi mindrazor

Medusa- general- shadowstone- 

20 blood sisters

5 blood sisters

10 blood stalkers

10 sisters of slaughter

Vyperic guard

3 drops but I dont feel great about being so light on bodies. Bow snakes are as an experiment. I want to see how they are in practice now that they seem OK on paper. I think 20 is a trap though. Ironscale seems to be a waste, so I eschewed her. Medusa gets withering spell if in khailebron, or shroud of despair if in new temple. The list is 100 points short. Conventional logic says grab a hag with catechism or sacrament of blood, but im tempted to do the horrorghast to double down on reducing bravery for mindrazor. The 20 snakes will have to pull a lot of weight, so they need all the boosts available. 

[Chumphammer]

49 minutes ago, Graywater said:

So I have a tournament on the Saturday after next. The TO has said that whether or not we use the new rules and points from the morathi book will be determined by whether the points are updated in warscroll builder by then. Since there's less than a week between the official release of broken realms and the event, I have no idea if I should expect to be using new rules (honestly I hope not). If its old rules (please), I can run my tried and true list. But im trying to decide what to do if its new rules. Help me out here. Im working on 2 lists currently:

List 1: Hagg nar

Morathi mindrazor

Hag on cauldron with blessing, iron circlet

Bloodwrack shrine- general, withering

30 sisters of slaughter with bucklers

10 sisters of slaughter with bucklers

20 blood sisters

This is my current list except I lose the heartrenders and my decent chance at a triumph for morathi's point increase. Still think its decent, as morathi has 2 options for the hero phase attacks and its a good number of models with survivability.

 

List 2: new temple? Khailebron? 

Morathi mindrazor

Medusa- general- shadowstone- 

20 blood sisters

5 blood sisters

10 blood stalkers

10 sisters of slaughter

Vyperic guard

3 drops but I dont feel great about being so light on bodies. Bow snakes are as an experiment. I want to see how they are in practice now that they seem OK on paper. I think 20 is a trap though. Ironscale seems to be a waste, so I eschewed her. Medusa gets withering spell if in khailebron, or shroud of despair if in new temple. The list is 100 points short. Conventional logic says grab a hag with catechism or sacrament of blood, but im tempted to do the horrorghast to double down on reducing bravery for mindrazor. The 20 snakes will have to pull a lot of weight, so they need all the boosts available. 

I think 1 is pretty solid. Its Pretty simple and probably what ill actually run for a 1st test

List 2 Could be interesting, I actually wrote a similar one, cept I decided to drop the batallions and take more bodies:

Khalibron
Morathi: 600
Bloodwrack Medusa: 140 General, Shadow Stone, Mindrazor, Mistress of Illusion
20 Blood Sisters: 480
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Sisters: 140
15 Blood Stalkers: 420  
5 Khinari Lifetakers: 80

Set up back if you want to depending what you are facing. Turn 1 teleport stalkers into good shooting position for the Mini Morathi ability and shoot main threat/Support heroes (or VS LRL just destroy the Sentinals lol)

Big  Morathi and 20 Snakes can press the attack

mini 5 sisters can tag obj

5 lifetakers is if you need to support Morathi and Snakes out of range they can get 3 attacks at Rend 1 D2 on the charge with her buff (of if you cant reach a cheeky character)



 

[Graywater]

13 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

I think 1 is pretty solid. Its Pretty simple and probably what ill actually run for a 1st test

List 2 Could be interesting, I actually wrote a similar one, cept I decided to drop the batallions and take more bodies:

Khalibron
Morathi: 600
Bloodwrack Medusa: 140 General, Shadow Stone, Mindrazor, Mistress of Illusion
20 Blood Sisters: 480
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Sisters: 140
15 Blood Stalkers: 420  
5 Khinari Lifetakers: 80

Set up back if you want to depending what you are facing. Turn 1 teleport stalkers into good shooting position for the Mini Morathi ability and shoot main threat/Support heroes (or VS LRL just destroy the Sentinals lol)

Big  Morathi and 20 Snakes can press the attack

mini 5 sisters can tag obj

5 lifetakers is if you need to support Morathi and Snakes out of range they can get 3 attacks at Rend 1 D2 on the charge with her buff (of if you cant reach a cheeky character)



 

List 1 is probably what I'll go with since its so close to what I run now and I dont like to play unpracticed lists at tournaments. 

List 2 would have to go with the new temple in its current format because it sounds like we can't run the battalions outside cobra Kai. Your take is probably more reliable though, as it has more bodies and doesn't rely on all of the spells and perfect placement mine would. Also you fit in the lifetakers. Im sorely wanting a unit of heartrenders. The lifetakers can be used as a poor man's heartrender unit for objective grabbing or light hero hunting.

[Chumphammer]

I actually just thought of this I wanna try 1st lol. Sadly not Morathi or much of the new stuff, but gives me 8 drops and 159 wounds but with Hag Narr 

Hag Narr
Cauldron of Blood: 290 Blessing of Khaine
Blood wrack Shrine: 210  General, shadowstone, Devoted Disciples  
Blade Coven: 140 Crimson rejuvination
30 Witch Aelves: 300
30 Sisters of Slaughter: 300
20 Blood Sisters: 480
10 Blood Stalkers: 280
 
So lots of bodies, attacks. with the 10 Blood Stalkers that still gives me 20 shots to help vs screens or support heroes. 

Crimson is to try and keep the cauldron and Medusa in the game a little longer 

Also the Morathi one is similar to @Graywater 

Hag Narr

Morathi Shroud of dispair 

Hag on cauldron with blessing

Bloodwrack shrine- general, mindrazor, shadowstone

30 sisters of slaughter with bucklers

10 Witch Aelves with bucklers

20 blood sisters

Edited November 10, 2020 by Chumphammer

[Eternalis]

Is the new Morathi 2 drops? There are 2 warscrolls and each one has a price cost : 210 / 390.
I hope it's only one, but hopefully it'll be FAQ.

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, Eternalis said:

Is the new Morathi 2 drops? There are 2 warscrolls and each one has a price cost : 210 / 390.
I hope it's only one, but hopefully it'll be FAQ.

Atm she is two drops but technically 1 model. Its like the blade coven also, 2 units but 1 points cost. Yeah hopefully a few things might change in FAQ

[Graywater]

Ok this is a long one. Had a surprise set of 3 practice game today against slaanesh and giants.  My list was khailebron: morathi with mindrazor, a medusa general with shadowstone and withering,  20 melee snakes, 2x5 melee snakes, 15 bow snakes, and 5 lifetakers. (Totally not stolen from @Chumphammer)

Game 1 was against taker tribe gargant list in focal points... So im fighting uphill from the start. He had 2 krakeneaters, a warstomper, and a unit of 3 mancrushers. He deployed on the line and I deployed as far back as I could while still staying in range for my snakes to hero phase shoot if he let me go first. 

He went first, kicked an objective to the middle and moved both krakeneaters towards the middle objective. His warstomper and mancrushers zoomed up the table with long runs. The mancrushers then make a long charge and get into my unit of 20 melee snakes. I tried to zone out with my units of 5, but they only cover so much territory. His mancrushers kill 13, while I am able to kill one after crystal touches. I lose the rest to battleshock and he scores 9 points.

In my turn, I hero phase shoot into his mancrushers and kill 1. Medusa casts withering on the warstomper. Morathi puts mindrazor on a unit of 5 snakes and goes to wrestle with the gargants in the center. Bow snakes shoot off the last mancrusher, and mindrazored snakes go into the warstomper. I do 10 damage and the stomper eats the unit. Morathi does 24 to a krakeneater and takes her 3 in return. Im able to score 1 point. 

He wins turn priority. He kicks the objective towards his board edge a little ways, but theyre pretty clumped. It doesn't matter though, because he charges the warstomper into my bow snakes and killed I think 10? I do a couple wounds but concede here as its insurmountable for morathi to come back on her own. 

Game 2 was against slaanesh in scorched earth. He had 3 keepers, epitome, Supreme sybarites, cogs, and some min battleline screens. He finished deploying first and was aggressive. I deployed well behind the line to avoid a near guaranteed first turn charge. Then he let me go first and I spent the first turn just readjusting but was out of range for everything. I tried to maintain the 2 small snake units as buffers to my valuable big units. He charges headlong across the field, but my screens are well placed this time and he is only able to kill the 2 small units. He does grab one of my side objectives because I had to leave it open to protect against his charge. I feel ok here though, as long as I can get the turn roll...

I dont. He gets the double turn and after locusing both snake units, he is able to wipe the melee snakes completely, and bring the bow snakes down to half. At the end of my turn, I kill 2 keepers, but one remains and all of my snakes are dead. My lifetakers took an objective on his side, but there's 20 marauders protecting his backfield, ready to take them out next turn, and he has enough depravity to summon like, 50 more daemonettes or some heroes.

We re-racked since it was a fast game and I deploy a little more aggressively to offer a first turn threat. Unfortunately, this meant I was in easy turn 1 charge range. (how can you not be with how fast slaanesh is?) 2 keepers charge my screens, but one is able to get around it and tag my 20 block. My screens obviously die, and hes able to kill 11 of my 20 block and another 6 run to battleshock. Before they do, the attacks back and crystal touch puts 11 wounds onto that keeper. 

I'm blocked in already and down to nearly 0 melee threat outside of morathi, so I feel pretty desperate. Hero phase activation on the bow snakes kills the heavily wounded keeper and puts a few wounds on the second one. Shooting sees the second keeper survive with a couple wounds after a disappointing roll. Snake morathi goes to fight the third keeper while the 3 remaining melee snakes make a run for his side of the field to get objectives. Unfortunately, he wins turn priority, summons another keeper and wipes the board of my units minus morathi. 

 

TAKEAWAYS:

an all snake army seriously lacks the board presence of armies that include elves too. The army needs to stay pretty close together (nothing new), but you don't have the model count to string to objectives or provide a tight screen.

I missed the +1 bravery from an avatar a lot for mindrazor. The gargant wouldve looked very different if I could've killed the warstomper in one turn.

Also the +1 to save and prayers from the shrine. And I missed the 5+ dpr instead of the 6+ greatly. Ive never felt so squishy. But these are luxuries its hard to find the points for.

Not having battleshock immunity through witchbrew or a CP to start is brutal. Following this, the army is very CP starved.

Bow snakes are better than before, but still have a disappointing output. I found I was constantly trying to balance the aggressive approach of the melee snakes with the more skirmish style of the bows. 

Crystal touch is as frustrating as I expected. I wanted to stay close to do the mortals, but sometimes you want to lose models within 3 so you arent in combat for your next turn (wasn't a problem here since I lost so many to battleshock, but still). Also waiting until the end of the phase meant many of my snakes were dead and so it wasn't very impactful. 

Getting the +1 attack for snakes from morathi being within 3 of the enemy was easy for my opponent to maneuver around. It was hard to set up, and when I could, it was only once many of my snakes were dead.

With the speed of armies out there, there's very real chance you can get penned into your deployment zone.

Being 7 drops meant my opponent chose first turn. I see this happening at events too. But in order to add a battalion, you have to go even lighter on the board, which is already a major issue. Its too early to say with certainty, but I highly doubt an all snake army is going to be effective. Im even doubtful as to whether snakes are going to be effective at all in the army. Maybe a smaller squad of bow snakes to support an elf-centric army, but im not sold on them yet either. Definitely needs more time in the lab.

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Graywater

[Fyrm]

I’m glad you got some testing in, even if the results aren’t looking good. More testing is definitely needed. 

[JackStreicher]

Mhm looks somewhat expected. Imo a mixed army might be the way to go.

I am still disappointed, that the Crystal touch is as bad as I‘ve feared 😕

[Chumphammer]

Its the problem with dok, hag nar and cauldron make them durable, but take those away and the army is just paper.

I think I'm going to scrap any plans for khelibron atm. In fact anything not Hag Narr in the current meta is just dead too fast. (Like I'm sure you can make a good khelibron list but its just not my thing)

I'll have to play a game or 2 to see if I like the stalkers or if I'm better off with something else. Being 280 for 10 stalkers puts it 20pts off a Celestant prime.

How did you find the new Morathi? Feel she pulls her 600pts weight?

[JackStreicher]

It seems like the reworked Blood Sisters would work best in Hagg Nar, since you have to survive the combat round to deal any MWs, which you won't without Hagg Nar. I wished they'd just reverse the changes they did to Blood Sisters...

[Nasrod]

It's an incredible shame that Stormcast and Idoneth have come out better than DoK in the book revolving around the antics of their figurehead. Morathi may be better, but her points increase is akin to the issue maligning Bonereapers at this time in that Katakros and Nagash are fantastic, but they eat so many points that attempting to use your remaining points on anything but effecient battleline fighters is a death sentence. 

Normally this would be fine, except the memory of Slaugher Queen + 3 Hags + 90 Witch Elves + 10 Khinerai is burned in every player's mind, despite it being made far more manageable in GHB 2018 and continuously nerfed even up to GHB2020. 

There is promise on the surface of these changes, but Morathi + Snakes will not work until she unlocks both sculpts as battleline. The true miss here is that we needed a Khinerai hero, not an additional Melusai that does absolutely nothing. 

I'm probably canceling my Shadow and Pain preorder. Slaanesh and DoK have both been overly hit with price hikes and desperately needed leaders that could enable new lists. Instead we got a Slaanesh hero beatstick to play second fiddle to existing Keepers and Daemon Princes, and a Melusai hero that tasks Melusai units with letting the opponent swing into them for the chance of making them better at the cost of 140 points and yet again no battleline unlocks. 

While Morathi is amazing, she is poison for the future of list creativity.The best thing Daughters got out of this book is unironically allying in Sharks to prevent pile in.

What a cruel joke. Hopefully the Nighthaunt overhaul will be better. 

[Marcvs]

6 hours ago, Graywater said:

He went first, kicked an objective to the middle and moved both krakeneaters towards the middle objective.

 

Thanks for the report and analysis, just wanted to hilight a small point. It's probably without much consequences, but the Gargant player cannot kick the objective when (s)he goes first in t1 as (s)he can only kick it if (s)he controls it already, and taking control happens at the end of each player's turn.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Marcvs

[JackStreicher]

32 minutes ago, Nasrod said:

Hopefully the Nighthaunt overhaul will be better. 

Wave of Terror Change: They can fight again, at the End of the Combat Phase .... uhh this hurts

 

Srsly though: The Designers tried to tone the crystal touch down so it won't escalate with bonus attacks AND grant no benefit if you make the Snakes fight in the Herophase. This double prevention kills it entirely though. They expect the Snakes to be tanky enough to use their ability at the end of the Combat phase, yet Daughters of Khaine as squishy as an ocotpus when it comes to taking damage outside of Hagg Nar.

They should change Crystal touch via FAQ to be like this:
After this units has executed all of its attacks in THE COMBAT PHASE, you can use this ability.

This is still toned down AND it does not benefit from fighting in the Herophase. 
Yet I honestly don't see an issue with Crystal Touch scaling with bonus attacks, there's much greater dirt out there that doesn not force you to take a rather bad subfaction.

 

I am also bothered that the Khinerai pretty much stayed the same.

Edited November 11, 2020 by JackStreicher

[whispersofblood]

8 hours ago, Graywater said:

Ok this is a long one. Had a surprise set of 3 practice game today against slaanesh and giants.  My list was khailebron: morathi with mindrazor, a medusa general with shadowstone and withering,  20 melee snakes, 2x5 melee snakes, 15 bow snakes, and 5 lifetakers. (Totally not stolen from @Chumphammer)

Game 1 was against taker tribe gargant list in focal points... So im fighting uphill from the start. He had 2 krakeneaters, a warstomper, and a unit of 3 mancrushers. He deployed on the line and I deployed as far back as I could while still staying in range for my snakes to hero phase shoot if he let me go first. 

He went first, kicked an objective to the middle and moved both krakeneaters towards the middle objective. His warstomper and mancrushers zoomed up the table with long runs. The mancrushers then make a long charge and get into my unit of 20 melee snakes. I tried to zone out with my units of 5, but they only cover so much territory. His mancrushers kill 13, while I am able to kill one after crystal touches. I lose the rest to battleshock and he scores 9 points.

In my turn, I hero phase shoot into his mancrushers and kill 1. Medusa casts withering on the warstomper. Morathi puts mindrazor on a unit of 5 snakes and goes to wrestle with the gargants in the center. Bow snakes shoot off the last mancrusher, and mindrazored snakes go into the warstomper. I do 10 damage and the stomper eats the unit. Morathi does 24 to a krakeneater and takes her 3 in return. Im able to score 1 point. 

He wins turn priority. He kicks the objective towards his board edge a little ways, but theyre pretty clumped. It doesn't matter though, because he charges the warstomper into my bow snakes and killed I think 10? I do a couple wounds but concede here as its insurmountable for morathi to come back on her own. 

Game 2 was against slaanesh in scorched earth. He had 3 keepers, epitome, Supreme sybarites, cogs, and some min battleline screens. He finished deploying first and was aggressive. I deployed well behind the line to avoid a near guaranteed first turn charge. Then he let me go first and I spent the first turn just readjusting but was out of range for everything. I tried to maintain the 2 small snake units as buffers to my valuable big units. He charges headlong across the field, but my screens are well placed this time and he is only able to kill the 2 small units. He does grab one of my side objectives because I had to leave it open to protect against his charge. I feel ok here though, as long as I can get the turn roll...

I dont. He gets the double turn and after locusing both snake units, he is able to wipe the melee snakes completely, and bring the bow snakes down to half. At the end of my turn, I kill 2 keepers, but one remains and all of my snakes are dead. My lifetakers took an objective on his side, but there's 20 marauders protecting his backfield, ready to take them out next turn, and he has enough depravity to summon like, 50 more daemonettes or some heroes.

We re-racked since it was a fast game and I deploy a little more aggressively to offer a first turn threat. Unfortunately, this meant I was in easy turn 1 charge range. (how can you not be with how fast slaanesh is?) 2 keepers charge my screens, but one is able to get around it and tag my 20 block. My screens obviously die, and hes able to kill 11 of my 20 block and another 6 run to battleshock. Before they do, the attacks back and crystal touch puts 11 wounds onto that keeper. 

I'm blocked in already and down to nearly 0 melee threat outside of morathi, so I feel pretty desperate. Hero phase activation on the bow snakes kills the heavily wounded keeper and puts a few wounds on the second one. Shooting sees the second keeper survive with a couple wounds after a disappointing roll. Snake morathi goes to fight the third keeper while the 3 remaining melee snakes make a run for his side of the field to get objectives. Unfortunately, he wins turn priority, summons another keeper and wipes the board of my units minus morathi. 

 

TAKEAWAYS:

an all snake army seriously lacks the board presence of armies that include elves too. The army needs to stay pretty close together (nothing new), but you don't have the model count to string to objectives or provide a tight screen.

I missed the +1 bravery from an avatar a lot for mindrazor. The gargant wouldve looked very different if I could've killed the warstomper in one turn.

Also the +1 to save and prayers from the shrine. And I missed the 5+ dpr instead of the 6+ greatly. Ive never felt so squishy. But these are luxuries its hard to find the points for.

Not having battleshock immunity through witchbrew or a CP to start is brutal. Following this, the army is very CP starved.

Bow snakes are better than before, but still have a disappointing output. I found I was constantly trying to balance the aggressive approach of the melee snakes with the more skirmish style of the bows. 

Crystal touch is as frustrating as I expected. I wanted to stay close to do the mortals, but sometimes you want to lose models within 3 so you arent in combat for your next turn (wasn't a problem here since I lost so many to battleshock, but still). Also waiting until the end of the phase meant many of my snakes were dead and so it wasn't very impactful. 

Getting the +1 attack for snakes from morathi being within 3 of the enemy was easy for my opponent to maneuver around. It was hard to set up, and when I could, it was only once many of my snakes were dead.

With the speed of armies out there, there's very real chance you can get penned into your deployment zone.

Being 7 drops meant my opponent chose first turn. I see this happening at events too. But in order to add a battalion, you have to go even lighter on the board, which is already a major issue. Its too early to say with certainty, but I highly doubt an all snake army is going to be effective. Im even doubtful as to whether snakes are going to be effective at all in the army. Maybe a smaller squad of bow snakes to support an elf-centric army, but im not sold on them yet either. Definitely needs more time in the lab.

 

Its just not a good list, and it obviously gets exposed against speed, like I said earlier about Blood Sisters. As mediocre as HoS are now those are competitive lists, and this list is a high drop army that needs to go first. The structure issues are obvious from the get go. It is slightly unfortunate that you plaid in effect the same style of army twice though. Why take Khailebron if you aren't going to use Temple Nest to get the drops way down? I would say in these examples unfortunately the list is the first issue.

Khalibron
Morathi: 600; Withering
Bloodwrack Medusa; 140 General, Shadow Stone, Mindrazor, Mistress of Illusion
15 Blood Sisters: 420
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Sisters: 140
10 Blood Stalkers: 280
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
5 Blood Stalkers: 140

This would have been substantively better, more flexible and less vulnerable to getting run in the first turn as it is 2 drops, so doesn't require screening as functionally Medusai exclusive lists can't screen effectively. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by whispersofblood

[Nasrod]

18 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Its just not a good list, and it obviously gets exposed against speed, like I said earlier about Blood Sisters. As mediocre as HoS are now those are competitive lists, and this list is a high drop army that needs to go first. The structure issues are obvious from the get go. It is slightly unfortunate that you plaid in effect the same style of army twice though. Why take Khailebron if you aren't going to use Temple Nest to get the drops way down? I would say in these examples unfortunately the list is the first issue.

Khalibron
Morathi: 600; Withering
Bloodwrack Medusa; 140 General, Shadow Stone, Mindrazor, Mistress of Illusion
15 Blood Sisters: 420
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Sisters: 140
10 Blood Stalkers: 280
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
5 Blood Stalkers: 140

This would have been substantively better, more flexible and less vulnerable to getting run in the first turn as it is 2 drops, so doesn't require screening as functionally Medusai exclusive lists can't screen effectively. 

You didn't actually allocate points for Temple Nest here. I think the best list you can fit similar to this structure would be:

Morathi - 600

Medusa - 140

20 Sisters - 480

5 Sisters - 140

5 Sisters - 140

5 Stalkers - 140 

5 Stalkers - 140

Spell Portal - 80 / 5 Heartenders 90

Nest - 130

1990/2000 or 2000/2000

Portal if you value the 2 drop, Heartrenders if you want the extra mobility to help with objectives, which you probably need as this list is low on bodies and wounds count.