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AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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I love the Rules and I‘ll even play the new temple. Luckily not everything is 100% competetive play.

Yet you are right. The new temple and overall the new DoK rules aren‘t even decent. Yet they‘re fun and offer another way to play (with friends, not competetive) ^^

Some minor changes to the rules would make them really solid:

New Temple:

“Attack is the best defense, especially when your‘re as Swift  as a viper“

+1 Save on the charge for Melusai and Khinerai & Morathi

Melusai Hero: Makes Melusai Battleline - in addition the crystal touch ability triggers at the start of the combat phase for every unit wholly within 15“

Edited by JackStreicher
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Good insights overall on your post. I agree, at least we can fall back on DoK still being a contender with the tome we've had for 2+ years. It could be worse i guess lol. 

47 minutes ago, Graywater said:

I think this book needs to be thought of as a supplement for casual play. The new temple introduces another way to play the army. It isnt a consideration for serious competitive play. That sucks, because it feels like a loss, but remember that we were, and still are, in a strong position. This arms race we are seeing with the drastic increases in power with the newer tomes isnt healthy. Id rather pass on being the next step up if it means a game where more than 2 or 3 armies have a chance of going 5-0 at an event.

The problem is that the power level of the new tomes isnt going anywhere. GW keeps pumping out rules that are terribly overpowered and then they touch them 1x aftera a release and then brush up on them MONTHS later if at all. Pt increases/ decreases are not enough to tame some of the nonsense you will find inside the Lumineth or seraphon book. Petrifax didnt get taken care of for close to a year. It just sucks that to play this game you often have to just bide your time for GW to make their random decisions on power levels. And especially when we have been waiting for a new tome for 2+ years only to have them come up short purely by terrible rules writing that could be fixed with 2 sentences but that we KNOW wont be changed anytime soon. 

Make Ironscale have battleline snakes, make the Blood sisters ability happen at the start of combat. Done, that ****** easy. But it wont happen, and noone can tell me why because GW has absolutely 0 consistency with rules writing. 
 

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52 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Good insights overall on your post. I agree, at least we can fall back on DoK still being a contender with the tome we've had for 2+ years. It could be worse i guess lol. 

The problem is that the power level of the new tomes isnt going anywhere. GW keeps pumping out rules that are terribly overpowered and then they touch them 1x aftera a release and then brush up on them MONTHS later if at all. Pt increases/ decreases are not enough to tame some of the nonsense you will find inside the Lumineth or seraphon book. Petrifax didnt get taken care of for close to a year. It just sucks that to play this game you often have to just bide your time for GW to make their random decisions on power levels. And especially when we have been waiting for a new tome for 2+ years only to have them come up short purely by terrible rules writing that could be fixed with 2 sentences but that we KNOW wont be changed anytime soon. 

Make Ironscale have battleline snakes, make the Blood sisters ability happen at the start of combat. Done, that ****** easy. But it wont happen, and noone can tell me why because GW has absolutely 0 consistency with rules writing. 
 

I get your frustration. This book has cemented for me that I am transitioning away from DoK. Snakes and morathi are all I've wanted to play since their release and I've crammed them into every list I make because of it. As much as I love the models, I'm a competitive player at heart and I wouldnt be satisfied playing an all snake list to try to go 3-2. Youre right in that it seems an easy fix for us, and points wont fix the egregious things in other books. There are many rules that need heavy adjustment that GW has shown they are very reticent to do. I can't say why they decided to make the rules the way they have. Id wager the people on the inside can't say either. But regardless of the fact that we don't know why, its what we have. And yes, its going to be this way for a while.

My thoughts is that we will be fairly soon into the 3rd edition cycle of books. Us, legions of nagash, stkrmcast, nighthaunt, nurgle, and IDK are all in that bubble. So it'll be a bit tough to ride out for now, but we may get new rules earlier than many. And maybe we get sylvanethed and suck. Maybe every single book gets knocked down. Who knows. Thats the "joy" of GW codex cycling.

Edited by Graywater
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So the list I might try without morathi is this:

Hag Narr
Bloodwrack Shrine: General, Shadow Stone, Mindrazor, Devoted Disciples 
Morgwaeths Blade Coven: Crimson Rejuvination
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood: Blessing of khaine
Medusa Ironscale
30 Sisters of Slaughter (Bucklers)
5 Blood Sisters
20 Blood Sisters
10 Blood Stalkers 
1980pts

Its just hard to fit a lot of stuff in and around Morathi.  I want to use her but need to work a list. The Medusa is a test really to see if it can work and the run/charge is worth it 

I think 10 stalkers is useful. 20 shots at a hero each turn can help take out support heroes or even clear screens. 

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2 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

So the list I might try without morathi is this:

Hag Narr
Bloodwrack Shrine: General, Shadow Stone, Mindrazor, Devoted Disciples 
Morgwaeths Blade Coven: Crimson Rejuvination
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood: Blessing of khaine
Medusa Ironscale
30 Sisters of Slaughter (Bucklers)
5 Blood Sisters
20 Blood Sisters
10 Blood Stalkers 
1980pts

Its just hard to fit a lot of stuff in and around Morathi.  I want to use her but need to work a list. The Medusa is a test really to see if it can work and the run/charge is worth it 

I think 10 stalkers is useful. 20 shots at a hero each turn can help take out support heroes or even clear screens. 

I'm still not sold on stalkers but you'll have to let me know how the ironscale does for you. Run 2d6 and charge sounds super devastating but I worry about catapulting them into the enemy line, sow some havoc, but ultimately dying because they're so exposed/separated from the main force. 

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1 minute ago, Graywater said:

I'm still not sold on stalkers but you'll have to let me know how the ironscale does for you. Run 2d6 and charge sounds super devastating but I worry about catapulting them into the enemy line, sow some havoc, but ultimately dying because they're so exposed/separated from the main force. 

Yeah I dont just wanna throw them in either, more use the run and charge movement to get a better flank charge so that I can use the ironscale 1st and not take too much damage to get the +1 attack, or maybe even send it over to the unit of 5 if I need to attack with the 20 1st.

Stalkers im 50/50 atm. Might just switch them to Shadow Warriors and Khinari 

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6 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Yeah I dont just wanna throw them in either, more use the run and charge movement to get a better flank charge so that I can use the ironscale 1st and not take too much damage to get the +1 attack, or maybe even send it over to the unit of 5 if I need to attack with the 20 1st.

Stalkers im 50/50 atm. Might just switch them to Shadow Warriors and Khinari 

The effectiveness of the ironscale's +1 attack ability is also a concern of mine. She has to be wholly within 12 of your unit to give the bonus attack. Do you think she will be able to activate while close enough, without being in danger of being outright killed herself? And do you think the bonus attack will be worth allowing your opponent to whittle your snakes down first? I'm curious to see how it does. I want to like her but these concerns make me think im better off not running her.

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1 minute ago, Graywater said:

The effectiveness of the ironscale's +1 attack ability is also a concern of mine. She has to be wholly within 12 of your unit to give the bonus attack. Do you think she will be able to activate while close enough, without being in danger of being outright killed herself? And do you think the bonus attack will be worth allowing your opponent to whittle your snakes down first? I'm curious to see how it does. I want to like her but these concerns make me think im better off not running her.

I mean thats the catch, She doesnt get the run and charge, so will struggle to keep up. you also have to kill a model with her first, so lose the 20 snake activation 1st.

I think having the small unit of 5 snakes go with the ironscale is my plan. use the command run abilty on the 20 so they can get into a good position and then have the 5 other snakes get the attack buff.

Had an idea for a 4 drop Morathi list also:

Khailibron
Morathi: Withering
Ironscale: Crown of Woe
Medusa: Shadow Stone/Mind Razor
20 Blood Sisters
5 Blood Sisters
5 blood sisters
Vyperguard
20 Shadow Warriors 
 

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7 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

I mean thats the catch, She doesnt get the run and charge, so will struggle to keep up. you also have to kill a model with her first, so lose the 20 snake activation 1st.

I think having the small unit of 5 snakes go with the ironscale is my plan. use the command run abilty on the 20 so they can get into a good position and then have the 5 other snakes get the attack buff.

Had an idea for a 4 drop Morathi list also:

Khailibron
Morathi: Withering
Ironscale: Crown of Woe
Medusa: Shadow Stone/Mind Razor
20 Blood Sisters
5 Blood Sisters
5 blood sisters
Vyperguard
20 Shadow Warriors 
 

This is very close to what I was thinking for a cobra Kai list:

Morathi: mindrazor

Ironscale: crown of woe

Medusa: shadowstone shroud of despair

Hag queen: catechism or sacrament iron circlet

20 blood sisters

10 blood sisters

10 sisters of slaughter

Viper guard 

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15 minutes ago, Graywater said:

This is very close to what I was thinking for a cobra Kai list:

Morathi: mindrazor

Ironscale: crown of woe

Medusa: shadowstone shroud of despair

Hag queen: catechism or sacrament iron circlet

20 blood sisters

10 blood sisters

10 sisters of slaughter

Viper guard 

I hope there is an FAQ or edit that lets Ironscale and/or Morathi make snakes battleline

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I am really curious where this "demand" that Sisters will work like Evocaters comes from?

With the new rules they will work almost the same as Kurnoth Hunters, with a 3+ instead of a 4+, and with a much bigger model count/unit. From my experience with Kurnoth Hunters this just works out fine and is a much better play experience for the opponent than Evocaters, as they have just ZERO counterplay, so from my perspective they should be changed to match Kurnoths (and now Blood Sisters) not the other way around.

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Moreover, if you use Ironscale CA and then "At the double", would you run 12" or just 6".

Rules as written it changes the run roll to a 6, meaning that you would run even less than the standard result (7"), and not the full 12".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Ironscale is even more useless than I thought xD

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16 hours ago, Graywater said:

I think this book needs to be thought of as a supplement for casual play. The new temple introduces another way to play the army. It isnt a consideration for serious competitive play. That sucks, because it feels like a loss, but remember that we were, and still are, in a strong position. This arms race we are seeing with the drastic increases in power with the newer tomes isnt healthy. Id rather pass on being the next step up if it means a game where more than 2 or 3 armies have a chance of going 5-0 at an event.

This is pretty much how GW operates. They are not (completely) the bumbling fools they are sometimes thought to be, they are acutely aware of the competitive meta and they don't want to rock that boat. Everything GW does rules-wise makes much more sense if you look at the models used in the competitive scene as a smaller subset of the whole range. That's why the competitive Hagg Nar army lists are largely unchanged since the Battletome release, all else is for casual play. The Morathi book is a bone thrown at the casual players, nothing more.

Edited by Yokai
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I feel like a crazy person, I am just not seeing what the rest of the sub seems to see. Maybe because I sold my DoK and can look at the book with fresh eyes and zero sunken cost? Stalkers are a great shooting unit now. Much better strategically than Sentinels and compare very well dmg for point as @swarmofseals pointed out. Its great to finally have a way to apply some damage from range so we don't just essentially try to grind away our problems, having access to Morathi's magic is a big boon for all the units in the army and I think I would generally go with withering over mindrazor in most circumstances anyway.

I actually think Blood Sisters are poor, but mostly because the unit type is poor in general. Sisters are cool but in a meta with a lot of shooting and tough combat units, a medium speed, low armour, low multi wound unit just isn't it. 

The best way to look at these changes is to redesign your list from the ground up and see what tools you would include with fresh eyes at overlapping synergies, buffs and units. Rather than is the medusa build better or as good as the tradition aelf build.

Edited by whispersofblood
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Absolutely agreed. Blood Stalkers compare super well to shooting units in other armies, and give Daughters something our classic tournament lists didn't have - hero sniping, and threat beyond melee (meaning we can pick off teleporting ambusher style units like Tree Revenants rather than have to hold back to guard an objective from them.) Morathi too is another huge change; previously, transforming her immediately and hoping she didn't suffer 3 (6) wounds first was the name of the game - now, going second isn't nearly as big a hindrance for her (as it's gonna be 3 wounds, not 6) you don't lose her magic or command ability, you have an extra model with a decent melee profile, her command ability thankfully doesn't require her to be the general anymore, etc. The new allegiance isn't a replacement for Hagg Narr, and the battalions aren't great, but they're perfectly fine to represent more thematic lists. 

Blood Sisters are the sole disappointment for me, and that's only because their ability happens at the end of the fight phase rather than after they attack - which would've let it work alongside our hero phase pile-ins. The other problem is that of the three abilities that give them +1 attack, one is tied to a sub-faction that isn't Hagg Narr (not a good trade-off) one is way too gimmicky to use (nearby Ironscale has to kill models...which means an enemy unit gets to attack the Blood Sisters first) and the third requires Morathi, who is super expensive and hard to fit alongside a good sized Blood Sister unit. Additionally, the Ironscale's command ability is obviously fantastic for them, but when the unit itself has lost value and the Ironscale is an expensive hero option that doesn't even unlock them as Battleline...it doesn't seem super viable to me. 

Besides that, all smiles here! Happily building my Shadow and Pain Melusai as Blood Stalkers, which is a thought I would have never had up to a few days ago. 

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5 hours ago, Craze said:

I am really curious where this "demand" that Sisters will work like Evocaters comes from?

my 2 cents. They made the ability MUCH worse than it was. They didnt want us buffing the unit with MW, fair enough. But that was part of why Blood sisters had a spot in the army, they were reliable MW. They were the hammer among the thousand paper cuts. The new ability took so much away from the profile and the points stayed the same. GW has costed the unit as if it was the original profile when they nerfed the hell out of the original profile. And as far as the +1 attacks, as others have pointed out, only 1 is really viable, and thats on a 600 pt model. They shouldve at the very least dropped Blood sisters points to make up for the difference. 

The ability at the end of combat is terrible. Sure it's like kurnoth ability, but if we're trying to justify power levels by looking at sylvaneth units than were ****** lol. It is nowhere near the power level of what they've been putting out the past few tomes. Sure if they changed the way EVERYONES worked to be end of combat that could be justifiable. But its not, its a way worse version of what others ( eels/ evocators) have that was already a downgrade from the original crystal touch profile. 

GW takes a year to fix their ******, this change made the unit worse, flat out, with the only justification being you "MIGHT" buff them up to +1-3 attacks. But as we all know, to get those +2/3 attacks you need to make very sub optimal choices ( read; anti competitive/ shoot yourself in the foot) by taking a crappy temple, or a hero that would take 140 points in a list thats already hurting for points, and has one of the absolute worst mechanics to trigger that buff ive ever seen.  OR by taking a 600 point model, which is in itself a huge investment. That shouldnt even factor into the stalkers base profile. 

So i think we're pissed because instead of us getting a competitive take on a snake army, we have a bunch of half baked mediocre rules that has boiled down to " well at least you can have fun losing with a full snake army like you've always wanted" 

Edited by Ser_namron
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11 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:


So i think we're pissed because instead of us getting a competitive take on a snake army, we have a bunch of half baked mediocre rules that has boiled down to " well at least you can have fun losing with a full snake army like you've always wanted" 

This is pretty close to there for me. My personal frustration is with the clear design that GW intended to push with this release, being a focus on their cooler scathborn units, and then having mediocre rules. For me, the elves are boring. So when the marketing train came out pushing the scathborn stuff, I was all aboard. Then the rules came and im left in a worse spot with my snakes than previously. Thats what is disappointing. 

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I still think the changes to Blood Sisters won’t play out as bad as everyone is theorizing, but we shall see! I hope to get some table time soon. I’ve always just shrugged and accepted that an all snek list would be a little under powered, so maybe it’s just my bias, but I’m really excited to try out the new Stalkers and Crystal Touch rules. And the Ironscale. I still can’t bring myself to try anything in the Morathi book. But we shall see!!!

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I think one of the bigger winners of this may actually be the Khinari Lifetakers. Morathi is great with them. 15 Khinari lifetakers is 240 points, for 30 damage 2 attacks on the charge, increased to 45 with Morathi. They also carry mindrazor well, going to 3D with OK bravery. Its a bit of a glass cannon, but thats the story for the whole army, and with the 14 inch move, they should easily be able to get there, and they keep up with Morathi just fine.

I also think people are underestimating Blood Stalkers. A Big unit shooting twice with Morathi seems excellent. 80 shots with 6's=mortals = 12.5 mortal wounds, enough to kill 2 characters or Most monsters, before even accounting for the rest of their regular damage. It is expensive, but this is only 1 CP for little morathi: You can still get full value from big fighty morathi and full value from her spell casting, so you are really only paying for the blood stalkers themselves, since it doesn't really require much of morathi's warscroll to do. They are also passable in combat, with 40 attacks at 3's and 4's if they happen to get caught in melee, and you can melee fight them to get them out, so you can't tie them up with something weak (although something strong will of course kill them)

Or maybe I'm reading morathi wrong and this doesn't work.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Or maybe I'm reading morathi wrong and this doesn't work.

It does indeed work as you are intending. I think thats a viable strategy, and i might try it out for sure. Stalkers not getting horde bonus is the killer though. you have 1160 points locked just in those 2 units. And once those stalkers get charged or shot you are scooping them away quickly. So i think its viable, but its a whole ton of eggs in one basket. 

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6 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

It does indeed work as you are intending. I think thats a viable strategy, and i might try it out for sure. Stalkers not getting horde bonus is the killer though. you have 1160 points locked just in those 2 units. And once those stalkers get charged or shot you are scooping them away quickly. So i think its viable, but its a whole ton of eggs in one basket. 

The problem with this is also that with such a fragile unit as your single hammer apart from Morathi you might also want to try and control the flow with low drops. But fitting a battalion in the remaining points leaves you with almost no bodies / other leaders (also considering that you need to at least add a 100 points leader to give her the command trait, so it's actually 1260 points locked by then)

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