AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Graywater]

16 minutes ago, Mojo said:

i try the list. 

Morathi its very strong, its a good positional.

witch elf with cauldron and hagg its very stronk 

The problem is Medusai, totally  useless

What type of cities list did you face?? When I first started with the army I felt the same way, and would sacrifice the melusai to save my sisters of slaughter. Over time I've found them to be quite valuable though. The melusai offer your only source of native rend and mortal wound output. They also have 1 higher base bravery, so better take advantage of the mind razor buff, since they will activate the +1 damage part more often than the witches. Against fyreslayers for example, i lose every game in which my snakes can get targeted before I get a chance to buff and attack properly with them. I really struggled against this army at first. Ive done significantly better against them lately (I play against fyreslayers a lot now) because my sisters of slaughter have become a throwaway screen that allows my fully buffed snakes to grind out the berzerkers.

Really it just takes some familiarity with your opponents army/units and understanding the gameplan to determine what role your snakes and witches are going to play. 

[zedatkinszed]

New DOK models for Warcry previewed today.

New DOK models for Underworlds released today.

New Hero model and a boxset with Slaanesh ... and a book with rules (but not a Battletome) coming in November!

It's a good day to be a follower of Morathi!

Edited August 22, 2020 by zedatkinszed

[Graywater]

39 minutes ago, zedatkinszed said:

New DOK models for Warcry previewed today.

New DOK models for Underworlds released today.

New Hero model and a boxset with Slaanesh ... and a book with rules (but not a Battletome) coming in November!

It's a good day to be a follower of Morathi!

That ironscale is great. The dual box has only our best models in it, being the snakes and harpies. Im now hoping we get a battletome released alongside the dual box like we saw with FEC and skaven, or ogors and OBR. I just want a decent way to run an all snake list!

[zedatkinszed]

3 minutes ago, Graywater said:

That ironscale is great. The dual box has only our best models in it, being the snakes and harpies. Im now hoping we get a battletome released alongside the dual box like we saw with FEC and skaven, or ogors and OBR. I just want a decent way to run an all snake list!

Honestly I'm surprised we haven't got a new Battletome announced on the back of this. We have 3 new units, 1 might even be battleline (if GW keep the tradition of making warcry units battleline).

I guess the Morathi book is going to basically be a DoK battletome 1.5 ruleset.

Edited August 22, 2020 by zedatkinszed

[Chumphammer]

"The aelven gods are rising up to challenge the might of Chaos and the growing power of Death – but like Sigmar’s pantheon before them, they are riven by mistrust and each pursues their own goals and schemes. Teclis, ever aloof and arrogant, seeks to single-handedly save the Mortal Realms. Allarielle, fickle as the seasons, turns on allies as well as enemies, attacking explorers and settlers across Ghyran. And as for Morathi… well, she has a very definite goal in mind – godhood. True to form, she doesn’t intend to let anything stand in her way.This new conflict will touch every corner of the Mortal Realms, and affect every faction. Treachery and torment. Siege and slaughter. Bloodshed and battle. All this and more awaits you in a series of epic narrative books on a scale not seen since the Realmgate Wars. As well as truly massive stories, these books will be packed with new rules for loads of factions, thrilling battleplans, and much more"

[Graywater]

12 minutes ago, zedatkinszed said:

Honestly I'm surprised we haven't got a new Battletome announced on the back of this. We have 3 new units, 1 might even be battleline (if GW keep the tradition of making warcry units battleline).

I guess the Morathi book is going to basically be a DoK battletome 1.5 ruleset.

My hope is the battletome would be a sudden release alongside the box like skaven and FEC. i think they were only announced maybe a week before the box came out if I remember correctly. 

My fear is that you're right and the morathi book is our source for updated rules. This is my dear because it doesnt fix the hagg nar problem from our book. The only way hagg nar still isn't the most powerful temple by far is to release a new temple that is even stronger than it, which just makes our issues worse. I really would like to see our temples reworked to allow some battleline-ifs (snakes should be battleline in khailebron and lifetakers in hagg nar), as well as change some of the abilities so hagg nar isn't auto take and kraith isn't garbage. 

[zedatkinszed]

1 hour ago, Graywater said:

My fear is that you're right and the morathi book is our source for updated rules. This is my dear because it doesnt fix the hagg nar problem from our book. The only way hagg nar still isn't the most powerful temple by far is to release a new temple that is even stronger than it, which just makes our issues worse. I really would like to see our temples reworked to allow some battleline-ifs (snakes should be battleline in khailebron and lifetakers in hagg nar), as well as change some of the abilities so hagg nar isn't auto take and kraith isn't garbage. 

When the new DoK Battletome comes it needs to forget and re-imagine the temples completely. Hagg Narr is a monster and it's why DoK are seen as an S (skewed) Tier army. All the other Temples are 'for fun only' which is a real shame. 

[Gecktron]

5 hours ago, zedatkinszed said:

New DOK models for Warcry previewed today.

New DOK models for Underworlds released today.

New Hero model and a boxset with Slaanesh ... and a book with rules (but not a Battletome) coming in November!

It's a good day to be a follower of Morathi!

What a great day! Im in love with the Ironscale! My force leans very heavily on Scathborn anyways, so this is perfect for me! It always felt kinda awkward to have the Bloodwrack Medusa on her shrine stay back, while the Blood Sisters are at the front having fun. Now a hero that can lead my army from the front!

Im really interested in her abilities. The description reads like she can generate lots of mortal wounds (maybe a improved death touch?). Making Blood Sisters battleline is basically a given I think, but maybe she can do the same for Blood Stalkers (finally a reason to take them)?

[foxicious]

Wowowowow,

I somehow forgot about the preview today and just checked the news right now. Everything about this is awesome. 

The new models of the Khainite Shadowstalkers look stunning and I'm in love with the Ironscale. Really looking forward to the rules and all the juicy stuff of the Morathi book. Great times to be a follower of Khaine indeed!

[Frowny]

I live the shadowstalker models so much. I dream of an army like that. I hope they are relatable. The new character could be good too. A useful command ability besides the slaughter queen would be great I think.

[DJMoose]

The hype for the Melusai Ironscale is real. Since day one I have wanted a Melusai hero to lead my many snakes.

So hyped!

[Chumphammer]

So did a mini event (3 games) today which was great to be outside and playing some AOS again. (I won 205/210pts)

I used my triple tower list I had been wanting to use:


Hagg Nar
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (Blessing of khaine) (290)
Bloodwrack Shrine (Shadowstone, mindrazor) - General, devoted Disciples (210)
Bloodwrack Shrine (The withering) (210)
Celestant Prime (300)
30 Sisters of Slaughter (Bucklers) (300)
20 Blood Sisters (480)
10 Witch Aelves (daggers) (120)
5 Khinari Heartrenders

 

Game 1: total conquest

I was against COS – Living city

Drycha
Knight incantor
Hurricanenum
Runelord
10 Longbeards
10 Warriors
20 Sisters of the watch
20 Irondrakes
6 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes

(cant remember what else)

Solid win by turn 5 with both objectives. Only had 6 sisters of slaughter and both shrines left for his army

Game 2: Blades edge

COS – Tempest Eye
Assassin
Knight Incantor
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage
Celestant Prime
30 Crossbowmen
2 x 10 Freeguild Handgunners
20 Freeguild guard (swords)
20 Freeguild guard (halberds)
10 Shadow Warriors
10 Shadow Warriors
Not sure what else

He got the doubt turn 1 into 2 and took off my cauldron with shooting. This put the pressure on but Imaged to swing it back around. End of game had 2 Blood sisters and the 2^nd Shirne with 7 wounds vs Just his assassin left on the board

Game 3: Shifting obj

Big waaagh
Boss on Cabbage
Drummer hero
drummer hero
Shamen
2 x 3 Gruntas
2 x 10 Biguns
15 Biguns

Not sure how his list details, but he hand of gorked his unit of 15 buffed Bigunsz to behind my army and then failed to charge. I just ran forwards and smashed into his army (20 blood sisters with Mind Razor and Witch brew = bye bye 2 x 10 Big uns_

Tabled his army by turn 4 and had most of mine left


I know this is mostly vague but I am tired lol. If a particular game is of interest I can say longer.

Pro and cons:

Tripple twoer was fun. 2 shrines pack a punch.

Hag on cauldron didn’t do much all event bar buffs. Only having the 1 buff is a shame but would have to drop something to get another hag (and tbh Id only want the new character one)

The prime was fun. Games 1 and 2 I held him till turn 3 and he had some big impact. Game 3 however I dropped him turn 2 (in hindsite a bad bad move) into the Cabbage. As I wanted my buffed snakes to kill his biguns they went first, which meant the cabbage one shot the prime. Ouch...

The Witch Aelves were Meh for 10. Buckelrs would have been better or tbh 10 Sisters of slaughter

The sisters of slaughter and Blood Sisters were great as usual

The heartrenders....Were ****** lol.

Game 1 they dropped down to make space for the prime and failed.
game 2 they dropped down, failed to hit any  of the 10 handgunners on the flank with shooting then died in combat to them

Game 3 dropped and failed to wound the drummer hero dude, then ran other, failed to wound 1 remaining gore grunta in shooting and combat and died.

Waste of 90pts and a drop lol.

So Ideas?

One is the same list and just replace Heartrenders for anything else for 90pts lol. Or take an endless spell for the 2^nd Medusa.

Another could be to drop the 2^nd shrine/heart renders and free up 160pts, either 10 more Sisters of slaughter for my unit of 10 (changed from witchaleves) or 5 Doomfire warlocks, but having the heroes on 13W is really good.

Maybe another option over the Prime? Would give me 390pts (could make the 2^nd unit of SOS into 30 and take the 140pt Hag Hero)

I am not sure atm, I feel I want more bodies but its where to get the bodies is tough

[Mcprowlington]

16 hours ago, Graywater said:

 

My fear is that you're right and the morathi book is our source for updated rules. This is my dear because it doesnt fix the hagg nar problem from our book. The only way hagg nar still isn't the most powerful temple by far is to release a new temple that is even stronger than it, which just makes our issues worse. I really would like to see our temples reworked to allow some battleline-ifs (snakes should be battleline in khailebron and lifetakers in hagg nar), as well as change some of the abilities so hagg nar isn't auto take and kraith isn't garbage. 

Since there seems to be so many parallels between the Morathi book and psychic awakening I'm guessing/hoping they might do what they did there and basically give us a list of 12 traits and let us create our own faction by having us pick 3. 

I also hope they're atleast taking a look at some warscrolls. Lifetakers and Bloodstalkers really can't be fixed with points changes.

But yeah, hagg nars overshadowing is even more of a bummer now that the new underworlds warband is hagg nar only

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Mcprowlington

[Graywater]

We honestly need a battletome rewrite. I still get "daughters are OP" regularly, but outside of hagg nar with witch/sister spam, we really aren't. Our other temples range from situationally alright to useless. We have a few units that need warscroll rewrites (blood stalkers and foot avatar). But my biggest concern is that all snake armies, while possible, just dont really work. We are forced to take a medusa as our general to get battleline snakes, which means we have no command abilities besides the generics, since our leaders with command abilities require them to be the general to use them. 

So our army is still a good performer, but its on the back of a singular build in one temple. I know I can't be the only one who wants to run just scathborn and morathi. I really don't like the witches or sisters of slaughter personally. So some options to realistically run some other builds would be awesome. 

Also, anyone else feel our army handles differently than advertised? Daughters were sold as a glass cannon army (and models look like they should be just that), yet our bikini clad elves are tougher to wound than blightkings. I know I was disappointed learning this, having always been a player valuing speed and offense over survivability, but was already too invested to switch. 

Come on GW, please fix this army. Give it some flavor that focuses on the religious zealotry of our infantry. And please give me a legitimate way to run just scathborn. The new box with just scathborn models is encouraging on this front, but does nothing without some rules changes to support it.  Im ready to shelf or sell this army without some support from GW on this front with this new box/morathi book.

[Belper]

I just want them to fix the dead warscrolls. They keep dropping Stalkers and Avatars and it keeps not doing anything the make them better. Until a blood stalker is 80pts and you're taking them just because they're 2 wound bodies, they'll never be useful.

Also, let min-morathi use her command ability. She already loses it when she's big, why does she have to be the general too?

[Xil]

Lifetakers only need 2" range to be viable. 

Stalkers need an extra shot. 

Besides the warscroll changes and temples I really wish for a new non hero unit. 

I wanna have a beast tamer unit that sends some bloody scary shadow beats into enemy lines! 

[Mutton]

A reminder for GW rules writers: Statistically Blood Stalkers will do an average of only 2 damage in the shooting phase. Also maybe the blood wyrm should do something other than nothing.

Suggestion on how to fix them: Give them 2 attacks each. Unmodified mortals on 6's to hit IN ADDITION to normal damage. Give them the same crystal touch attacks the Blood Sisters have. Turn the blood wyrm into some kind of debuff ability affecting a unit within their missile range (24").

Edited August 23, 2020 by Mutton

[Tropical Ghost General]

Hello Everyone

I've been lured in by the new snek lady from the preview. I've always liked the snake lady models and seeing the preview I'm wanting to do a pure snake army now more than ever. I have some conversions in mind to keep everything snake related (or as closely snake related as possible). I know that with the current rules available, a pure snake army won't be competitive, but that's not my main aim (obviously being able to hold it's own would be helpful 😄).

As my DoK battletome is on route from the online shop and the 4chan tactics site is currently down, I thought I'd ask some questions to help tide my brain over:

- With the current rules, what's the best way to run pure snakes? eg. temples, artefacts, etc...

- What is the best unit size for both versions of the snakes?

- Is the medusa general better on foot or with the cauldron?

- Is there any allies that would be worth considering to help patch some of the holes a pure snake army might have?

Thanks in advance for the help

[Graywater]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

 

- With the current rules, what's the best way to run pure snakes? eg. temples, artefacts, etc...

- What is the best unit size for both versions of the snakes?

- Is the medusa general better on foot or with the cauldron?

- Is there any allies that would be worth considering to help patch some of the holes a pure snake army might have?

Thanks in advance for the help

snakes arent directly benefited from any particular temple currently, so its kinda up to personal preference. Hagg nar is our overpowered go-to, but there actually is a small argument for a couple others in pure snake lists. 1st, if you go true pure snakes and have no hags, then you have no prayers, which means you get no blessing of khaine (the one that lets you reroll the improved fanatical faith). Khailebron gives a command ability that lets you teleport a unit, which is a nice way to give some additional movement, and your medusa general doesn't come with a command ability, so this would give her something she could do. Draichi ganeth is situationally ok too, since the +1 to hit if you charge means your glaives on the blood sisters hit on 2s and you do mortals with your crystal touch on 3s. Artifact wise, its almost always a toss up between shadowstone for +1 to cast and a reroll for mindrazor, and iron circlet to reroll prayer rolls of 1. Thats kind of personal preference as they are both good, but depend on what heroes you decide to run (i.e. bloodwrack shrine or hag on cauldron).

 

Unit size for snakes vary. I think you'll see most lists run a unit of 20 melee snakes for buffing purposes, but this is typically in an army with only one snake unit. 20 is a great number, but could be too large if you're doing an army of all snakes. Ive been experimenting with this with morathi in the army as well and it is indeed the case. Youll never get all 20 in at once anyways. Ive been trying MSU snakes and seeing some success, but there are some real shortcomings. Going to try units of 10 next. I think that may be the number that gets the most of your unit to bear against your enemy without being easy to ignore like a unit of 5 can be. For bow snakes... if you feel you have to run them, keep them as minimal as possible. Theyre unfortunately trash at the moment, and not worth running without a warscroll change. Only reason to run them is if you go temple nest, in which you need 2 units. If you do that, absolutely they need to be 2 units of 5 because between them and the battalion cost, you've eaten up a good chunk of points without adding any substance to the army. 

Medusa should go on a shrine every time you have points for it. The bump from 6 to 13 wounds is absolutely worth it. She doesn't DO much more on the shrine, but being much harder to kill keeps your mind razor caster alive for longer, and gives you a much better candidate to grab objectives in the battleplans that benefit you to do so. With how much shooting/magic has come out recently, a non shrine medusa can be pretty reliably killed in 1 turn.

We are limited in allies, and none seem to do much that a unit of sisters of slaughter/witch elves won't do better. Ive found myself wanting a screen that isnt my expensive snakes, which is where the elf comment comes from. Threatening backfield objectives is also something this army struggles with without support. Some people like to ally shadow warriors for this while others stick within faction and use heartrenders. Shadow warriors have 5 more bodies and do a little more damage while heartrenders can fit in a slightly smaller area, dont need to be deployed in cover to get their bonuses, and get a 6" move after shooting on a 4+, meaning you can immediately threaten lightly controlled objectives the turn you drop down. So again, personal preference on this one.

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Graywater thanks for all of the tips. The plan is to convert the slaughter queen and hag queen to have snake lower halves, so they'll definitely be in the list.

I'll look into suitable snake lower halves for the khinerai, as they seem useful.

With the allies, is taking stuff like the an Incantor worth looking at for having an auto dispel?

[Graywater]

1 minute ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@Graywater thanks for all of the tips. The plan is to convert the slaughter queen and hag queen to have snake lower halves, so they'll definitely be in the list.

I'll look into suitable snake lower halves for the khinerai, as they seem useful.

With the allies, is taking stuff like the an Incantor worth looking at for having an auto dispel?

Hags are great to have. With current rules, slaughter queens are useless for us, as their one benefit over hags is the command ability. But that requires the slaughter queen to be the general, which the medusa has to be in order to have battleline snakes. 

I've seen people run the knight incantor as an ally before. The auto dispel is handy to have, but the incantor suffers from not having much to do after using that auto dispel, which isnt a great thing to have for 120 points. Most of the people I've seen using one has stopped using it, though I've never used one myself so I dont have any personal experience with it. In my opinion, 120 is a lot of points to invest in a one use item. We arent particularly good with magic, so investing any further resources into it seems wasteful. @Chumphammer has used the celestant prime recently with success, so there are useful allies out there.

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Graywater So I've played against DoK lots before GHB20. How has the army changed with the new rules in GHB20, such as ward saves not stacking, etc...

 

[Graywater]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@Graywater So I've played against DoK lots before GHB20. How has the army changed with the new rules in GHB20, such as ward saves not stacking, etc...

 

Short answer is it hasn't. Our points changes were negligible and our ward save wasn't affected. We still only have 1 ward save. Hagg nar turns the value of the ward from a 6+ to a 5+ within 7 inches of the general, and the blessing of khaine prayer is a reroll, not an additional ward save. Literally the only thing that happened to me is my list went down 10 points and so I've gotten a triumph (from the trimmed down better list) more often.

And since we  rely on our battleline to do the majority of our heavy lifting and are in the habit of forming up around our important buffing heroes, the battleplan changes havent affected our list building really either.

[Xil]

@Tropical Ghost General

I feel the change regarding terrain rules. We don't benefit from Mystical anymore. Last night I had a game playing in Hysh where everything was Mystical in addition.

It goes two ways, you are free to ignore mystical now but you suddenly fight rats with lots of aftersafes

[Aeryenn]

I have a question. I don't really like the heads and faces of witch elves and lifetakers. If I would swap those heads with those of sisters of slaughter and heartrenders would I have any problems when entering an official tournament? The rest of their body would remain as in instructions.