AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Sobakaa]

The thing is, other top armies, notably FEC and Scaven, were adjusted in points as well. So they'll be taking less stuff now too which levels the playing field somewhat, again.

[swarmofseals]

53 minutes ago, Sobakaa said:

The thing is, other top armies, notably FEC and Scaven, were adjusted in points as well. So they'll be taking less stuff now too which levels the playing field somewhat, again.

Yeah, that is certainly true -- although some competitors got quite a bit better as well. I'm not suggesting that DoK aren't good (they very likely are, and could easily still be top tier). I'm more curious to know how the top lists are adjusting to the new points costs.

I haven't gotten a chance to play DoK at all, so I don't feel that I have the in-game experience to comment on what changes should be made. There are some relatively obvious adjustments:

1. Jack Armstrong: dropping the Bloodwrack Medusa brings it back into line exactly, but is cutting that second wizard acceptable? It seems like the least-worst option though, given that it otherwise would require major restructuring such as dropping the battalion, which seems like a non-starter.

2. Nicolas Guidez: dropping the medusa seems like the only option here aside from majorly restructuring the list.

3. Dagmara Wajs: pretty much has to drop 10 witches and the extra CP

4. Rosenramm: this list probably has to morph into Jack Armstrong's list as dropping a hag queen and merging the 20 and 10 witches into a block of 30 still leaves it at 10 points over. 

5. Samuel Jansson: this one pretty clearly drops 10 witches

6. Stefan Gmur: this list is perhaps the hardest to adjust and the most "different" of all the ETC lists. Probably the cleanest solution would be to merge the unit of 20 and unit of 10 (picking either witches or sisters) and drop the endless spells, but perhaps the endless spells are important to the list. Alternately it can be moved toward Cauldron Guard instead of Slaughter Troupe to save 30 points, merge the 20 and 10 units and drop geminids but keep swords. It's pretty hard to keep geminids. 

7. Melisa Mumcu: dropping the medusa wouldn't be quite enough, and it also might not be advisable to do so. Probably the most obvious change would be to drop 20 witches and add a third Hag Queen or possibly drop 10 witches and switch to Cauldron Guard. 

8. Roger Barker: vaguely similar to Melisa Mumcu's list, the adjustments likely lead to the same general places. 

 

What do you all think about this analysis? It seems like the competitive lists are mostly converging to lists with 60-70 ladies and Morathi, or 90-100 ladies and 1-2 casters (either medusa or warlocks).

 

[Kaleun]

20 hours ago, Aristo said:

Heh, everyone I talk to has a slightly different take on the WE/SoS & knives/bucklers debate. Makes it tough to decide how to build them!

The way it was rationalized to me, the SoS have a 2” range. If they attack from max range, they aren't using the 1” range knives (and you may as well take bucklers for the MW chance and bonus to saves).

I see the value of two knives on WE, though.

thats a bit of a to theoretical approach. Try it out with proxy models how the close combat situation really unfolds. SoS will use their knives from the first and second row of models. The 2" reach means that a third row of models can put wounds on an enemy unit. This makes max. size units of SoS look interesting. Please note however that smaller units of sister could also reach over friendly models and support them in close combat.

For me I thought it through and went for the knives. Why? Because I am a former Dark Elve player and the Druchii way is the way of the glasscannon. That means we win games by wiping enemy units in the first strike. If not, the army is wrong composed or will not punch itself through to victory. The dark elven weakness are endurance fights.

Conclusio: max damage for me. Defensive options are for other armies. 

18 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Is anyone aware of any posts or podcasts in which any of the top DoK players have talked about their adaptations to the new GHB? All those ETC lists are pretty useless given that they need major changes to fit in under the new points scheme.

Jack Armstrong's list went up by 140 points

Dagmarja Wajs' list went up by 160 points

Rosenramm's list went up by 180 points

Samuel Jansson's list went up by 130 points

Stefan Gmur's list went up by 100 points

Melisa Mumcu's list went up by 130 points

Roger Barker's list went up by 170 points

 

I know everyone and his mother is insisting that DoK is still top tier, and that may be so, but these lists are all going to have to drop significant pieces.

thanks a lot for the calculation. You are right that we can not use the same lists as the ETC players. Honestly who would?!? However the reason we talk about this are the Warscrolls. Those didnt change and we see very clearly which leader units or core units are favoured in highly competitive lists. Post GHB 2019 the Daughters of Khaine have to change their lists.

[whispersofblood]

My advice is to bank the experience, and start a list from scratch.

[Chumphammer]

What is peoples experience of Dok vs Slaanesh or Flesh Eater Courts?

Both seem to be very tough good in the current state of the game

Any good general tactics to use?

playing my first game against Slaanesh tomorrow 

[Lucentia]

Versus Slaanesh I like Morathi on the board and Sisters of Slaughter as key pieces.  Morathi can pin Keepers and other heroes in place and will only give up 3 depravity points in the process, and Sisters of Slaughter can dodge the Locus of Diversion if you're careful with placement.  I think Slaanesh versus DoK is actually quite an interesting, generally close, match-up, but it takes some practice to come out on top!

Versus FEC you're mostly going to want to be very careful with your screening to try and bait out their big monster/flayer/horror charges, Sisters of Slaughter can again be quite useful here, really.  Try and unbind the spell that boosts their movement/adds run and charge if you can, that can really leave them in the lurch.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Lucentia

[Chumphammer]

2 hours ago, Lucentia said:

Versus Slaanesh I like Morathi on the board and Sisters of Slaughter as key pieces.  Morathi can pin Keepers and other heroes in place and will only give up 3 depravity points in the process, and Sisters of Slaughter can dodge the Locus of Diversion if you're careful with placement.  I think Slaanesh versus DoK is actually quite an interesting, generally close, match-up, but it takes some practice to come out on top!

Versus FEC you're mostly going to want to be very careful with your screening to try and bait out their big monster/flayer/horror charges, Sisters of Slaughter can again be quite useful here, really.  Try and unbind the spell that boosts their movement/adds run and charge if you can, that can really leave them in the lurch.

Morathi again. Balls 

Gonna have to make her fit in my list huh

[Black Blade]

This is the list I'm taking to my first 2k game with DoK. Where did I do wrong? Too few wounds? Or is this a decent list? I brought two cauldrons because a lot of battle plans have objectives across the board and instead of turtling forward with one I thought I could split my force somewhat and pressure multiple points at once forcing my opponent to do the same. 

 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)
- General
- Trait: True Believer 
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (300)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet 
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen (90)
- Prayer: Martyr's Sacrifice

Battleline
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
20 x Sisters of Slaughter (240)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers

Units
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)

Battalions
Slaughter Troupe (130)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 121
 

[Kaleun]

looks fine to me. Totally ok for your first DoK game. Personally I think it is a rather strong list. Better tell your opponent that you take the gloves off and go for a competitive list. 

What will you be against?

For optimisation I would throw out the second Cauldron, but its fine if you want to play without magic (Medusa).

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kaleun

[Chumphammer]

Lost the 1st game with the list I was 5-0 with, Vs Slaanesh last night

I tabled his army but sadly it was relocation orb, he made me go 1st and the orb moved to his corner both times, them stayed in his area rather than jumping back to the middle.

Game woulda been mine turn 3 but he got the double

Ended 8vp vs 7vp

I had 26 WE, 10 Snakes, 5 heart renders, 5 sos, a hag and the medusa left vs his whole army dead inc 80 odd depravity points of summoned stuff

[Black Blade]

On 8/6/2019 at 6:29 PM, Kaleun said:

looks fine to me. Totally ok for your first DoK game. Personally I think it is a rather strong list. Better tell your opponent that you take the gloves off and go for a competitive list. 

What will you be against?

For optimisation I would throw out the second Cauldron, but its fine if you want to play without magic (Medusa).

I will be playing against a Khorne player. I expect at least two thirsters. Thanks for telling me it's a bit strong. Most games I play are casual and so far at the lower points I have left feeling kind bad about running over my opponents. Not so much against Plague Monks though... "cheese meet cheese."

[Chumphammer]

Just had this idea, thoughts?

 

Slaughterqueen on cauldron - general
Blessing of khaine, gluphfeather charm

Hagqueen - catachism

Hagqueen - sacrament

Bloodwrack medusa

Knight Incantor

30 Witch Alves

30 Sisters of Slaughter

10 Witch Aleves

20 Blood Sisters

Maleficent Maelstrom

[Lucentia]

Looks good to me, I would only be tempted to swap the artifact to either Iron Circlet for more reliable Blessing or Shadow Stone for more reliable Mindrazor, but I do rate the Gryph-Feather Charm quite highly as well, to be fair.
 

[Sobakaa]

What's the point of knight incantor? Outside of 1 guaranteed unbind and some suicide action he's basically a medusa without access to racial spells.

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, Sobakaa said:

What's the point of knight incantor? Outside of 1 guaranteed unbind and some suicide action he's basically a medusa without access to racial spells.

Helps slow enermy charges and cast maelstorm

 

I also like:

Slaughterqueen on cauldron - general
Blessing of khaine, iron circlet

Hagqueen - catachism

Hagqueen - sacrament

Morathi

30 Witch Alves

30 Sisters of Slaughter

10 Witch Aleves

10 Blood Sisters
 

 

[Lucentia]

Don't underestimate that automatic unbind, the Incantor is almost worth the points on that alone, you only need to stop Warp Lightning Vortex once for it to be worthwhile...

[Chumphammer]

So England won the ETC, but more interestingly Jack Armstrongs list got most TP and 1st individual overall

[Darkhan]

13 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

So England won the ETC, but more interestingly Jack Armstrongs list got most TP and 1st individual overall

Looked at the lists on asshorts, but the point cost seems outdated? 60 points for a Hag, is there anywhere where the lists are updated?

[Sobakaa]

ETC was played using the 2018 GHB so they still had hags for 60. You'll have to wait another year to see ETC using the 2019 book.

[Darkhan]

3 minutes ago, Sobakaa said:

ETC was played using the 2018 GHB so they still had hags for 60. You'll have to wait another year to see ETC using the 2019 book.

Aha, lucky guys!

[Kaleun]

Jack Armstrong played Morathi plus the Cauldron Guard. The list by todays point values is 2130. So Mr. Armstrong would have to throw out the Medusa for example to make the list legal according to GHB 2019. In general I think the Cauldron Guard is pretty good, However with the 20 point more expensive witches per ten and the more expensive Hag Queen it got more expensive then the Slaughter troupe in comparison. 

Cauldron Guards minimum requierements went from 540 to 610 points:

Hag Queen (90)
10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
Cauldron Guard (120)

Slaughter Troupe got a point increase from 630 to 650 points:

Slaughter Queen (100)
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
Slaughter Troupe (130)
 

[Esmer]

Hey y'all, 

I am currently eyeing TTCombat's Kickstarter of Egyptian-themed Not!Daughters of Khaine (they also have Not!Khemri and Desert Halflings.) 

I have zero experience with Witch Aelves so far but I want to get an entire army in one go, so I wanted to ask you how many models of the following you'd say are necessary in general to field an appropriate army list variety: 

 

- Sisters of Slaughter 

- Witch Aelves 

- Khinerai 

- Melusai 

- Doomfire Warlocks 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Esmer

[Kaleun]

that depends on your motivation to paint the models and on your playing community how many points you want to play with. I suggest to start with a list of 1000 points. Try the Warscrollbuilder to compose a list. For inspiration this thread and other sources can help you. 

Besides the point value you want to start with you can decide to either make a strong competitive list or something for friendly games. 

[Isabel]

Hello everyone!

I'm currently strongly considering finally making the Daughters of Khaine army i have been wanting, basically since morathi and the melusai were revealed.

I'm trying to find a happy medium between using the models I like the most and having a decently effective army for potentially slightly more competitive casual play (I don't have a fixed group so I don't want to get completely flushed off the table if i happen to play someone who brings something tougher, but im also not looking for a list that wins me tournaments). I'm hoping to basically buy nothing that i'm never going to use after a testing period so I would like to plan everything ahead of time.

I've been rolling a few ideas around in my head and I just wanted to get some feedback which of the following 2k pitched battle lists would be a solid army to build towards. All of these are made with Khailebron as their Temple.

I'm leaving choices of prayers, spells, relics and command abilities out, since those can be anything without having to worry about the models. But im happy to take advice on those.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Temple Nest Battalion
- Bloodwrack Shrine, General
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 10 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers

Cauldron Guard Battalion
- Hag Queen
- 10 Witch Aelves
- 10 Witch Aelves
- 5 Khinerai Lifetakers
- 5 Khinerai Lifetakers

Total 1940 pts

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bloodwrack Medusa

Hag Queen

Temple Nest Battalion
- Bloodwrack Shrine, General
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers

Cauldron Guard Battalion
- Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood
- 10 Witch Aelves
- 10 Witch Aelves
- 5 Khinerai Lifetakers
- 5 Khinerai Lifetakers

Total 1960 pts

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morathi

Hag Queen

Slaughter Queen

Temple Nest Battalion
- Bloodwrack Shrine, General
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 10 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers

Total 2000 pts

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So as you can see, i really like the snake girls, theyre the main draw of the Daughters for me. But i'm also a fan of the unmasked versions of the regular witches and khinerai. Really the only models in the line that don't appeal to me are the doomfire warlocks and the various brass masks (which i  guess i can just model the miniatures without).

The first list has a pretty significant 60 point hole, which i guess i can fill with a command point.

In the second list i could put the hag queen on foot into the battalion and put a slaughter queen on the cauldron, which would fill that 40 point gap. But I'm not even sure if the slaughter queen is that much better, considering she doesn't have the witch brew.

The third list has the big lady herself. And im considering getting an extra box of melusai just to convert everyone in there into snakes (including the goading spear wielders on the shrine and morathis aelf form). Im just hoping that the army doesn't look  or feel a little monotone to play with being basically nothing but melusai and the characters that support them.

[Chumphammer]

5 hours ago, Isabel said:

 

Temple Nest Battalion
- Bloodwrack Shrine, General
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 10 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers

Cauldron Guard Battalion
- Hag Queen
- 10 Witch Aelves
- 10 Witch Aelves
- 5 Khinerai Lifetakers
- 5 Khinerai Lifetakers

Total 1940 pts

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bloodwrack Medusa

Hag Queen

Temple Nest Battalion
- Bloodwrack Shrine, General
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers

Cauldron Guard Battalion
- Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood
- 10 Witch Aelves
- 10 Witch Aelves
- 5 Khinerai Lifetakers
- 5 Khinerai Lifetakers

Total 1960 pts

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morathi

Hag Queen

Slaughter Queen

Temple Nest Battalion
- Bloodwrack Shrine, General
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Sisters
- 10 Blood Sisters
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers
- 5 Blood Stalkers

Total 2000 pts

 

Hello and welcome

Only things I would suggest are:

1: a second hag for each list. Hags are really important. Prayers are great but Witch Brew is amazing.

2: Id make the blood sisters into units of 10. 10 with witch brew and prayers are really powerful. 5, are ok, but you only have so many buffs you can throw out.

Both of these can let you have two buffed units of Snakes that hit hard