AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Lucentia]

Yeah, you can get your snakes to 3+/5++ rerolling if there's some cover handy.  But the cauldron projects an aura of +1 save to put them on a 4+/6++ most of the time, which is pretty decent.  Plenty of units in the game rock a 5+ base save, it's not an insurmountable hurdle.

[Chumphammer]

5 hours ago, Eternalis said:

Strike first and kill them before they kill you

Pick a Hag on Cauldron to give your snake +1save and you may even take the prayer to reroll your fanatical faith rolls.

Any excuse to repost this I did a while ago

[DJMoose]

18 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Any excuse to repost this I did a while ago

Time to share this with all of my regular opponents. 

[Mutton]

Played a game with new DoK vs. Skaven. My list was Khelt Nar.
1x Morathi-Khaine/Shadowqueen - Mindrazor
1x Hag Queen on foot - Blood Sigil - Catachism+Blessing
1x Bloodwrack Shrine (general) - Temple artifact - MirrorDance
1x Avatar on foot
10x Blood Sisters
10x Blood Stalkers
10x Sisters of Slaughter
5x Doomfire
5x Lifetakers
Vyperic Guard battalion

Played Gift from the Heavens. It was a tough game all the way through. Start of the game my doomfires were immediately wiped out at range. Mirror Dance was excellent for teleporting both Morathi's into the enemy on round 1, leaving the enemy with few options other than to engage her. But shooting and magic still tear through our units like tissue paper, and round 2 saw the Avatar and all but three snake sisters shot to pieces. Stalkers were excellent for precision targeting, and I used them to double-tap and kill off a unit of 20 stormvermin. The Skaven used Lightning Vortex in the center of my army, which meant a lot of damage and kept my general stranded for a bit.
Morathi carried me through the game, doing her best to kill a unit of stormfiends, mostly just tying them up and keeping them from my objective. The enemy charged a big unit of stormvermin into Morathi, and the Khelt Nar command ability did 7 mortals back to them, which was neat. Eventually the stormvermin almost all died, Morathi was killed, and hardly anything was left. I used Mirror Dance again to teleport my general and a hag queen away from danger and onto/nearby objectives---this won me the game with the shrine, as it was able to sit on the enemy point and agonize the remaining rats off the board. Won on the last battle round by scoring both objectives.

Quick thoughts:
-Stalkers aren't quite as good without the free rerolls on round 3, but still awesome for power projection and the double-tap if you have CP.
-Khelt Nar free Khinerai are great. If you're not running huge blocks of witches, you really need all the bodies you can get. They were an excellent backup unit when things started going wrong and I needed someone to defend my objective.
-Lifetakers were fine? Hard to judge, half of them were killed by magic and then some dice shenanigans on both sides meant they kind of just stood there doing nothing. I think the outcry around them is exaggerated when they're on 40mm's with 1" range, and still die to a stiff breeze. All I hear is "they do 150 damage!"...yeah that probably ain't gonna happen with the current shooting/magic meta. Three of them couldn't kill 2 stormvermin on the charge so...
-Is Mindrazor worth taking? Didn't cast it the entire game, even with Morathi's +1. Twice I rolled 7's, but that 8---it's rough. I wouldn't ever go into a game expecting to get this thing off. Again, all this mathhammer talk about giving dudes -2 or -3 rend with +1 damage omg!...this spell is so difficult to get off.
-Avatar +1 prayer certainly helped my priest for the first round he was alive. He died immediately after that so I don't know if he was worth the 130.
-Morathi's -1 rend loss is huge. People think this is a joke, but it makes a universe of difference to her output. Attacking a unit with a basic 4+ save (not even rerolling) meant there was a solid amount of damage being negated every combat round (usually 6 or more damage). I still really hope this was a typo from Broken Realms. That said, Morathi still helped tank a couple units for long enough to bring me back in the game.
-Hag queens are still vital for those wound rerolls and prayer buffs. My three snakes still managed to do some damage while stacked with goodies.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Mutton

[jhamslam]

29 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Played a game with new DoK vs. Skaven. My list was Khelt Nar.
1x Morathi-Khaine/Shadowqueen - Mindrazor
1x Hag Queen on foot - Blood Sigil - Catachism+Blessing
1x Bloodwrack Shrine (general) - Temple artifact - MirrorDance
1x Avatar on foot
10x Blood Sisters
10x Blood Stalkers
10x Sisters of Slaughter
5x Doomfire
5x Lifetakers
Vyperic Guard battalion

Played Gift from the Heavens. It was a tough game all the way through. Start of the game my doomfires were immediately wiped out at range. Mirror Dance was excellent for teleporting both Morathi's into the enemy on round 1, leaving the enemy with few options other than to engage her. But shooting and magic still tear through our units like tissue paper, and round 2 saw the Avatar and all but three snake sisters shot to pieces. Stalkers were excellent for precision targeting, and I used them to double-tap and kill off a unit of 20 stormvermin. The Skaven used Lightning Vortex in the center of my army, which meant a lot of damage and kept my general stranded for a bit.
Morathi carried me through the game, doing her best to kill a unit of stormfiends, mostly just tying them up and keeping them from my objective. The enemy charged a big unit of stormvermin into Morathi, and the Khelt Nar command ability did 7 mortals back to them, which was neat. Eventually the stormvermin almost all died, Morathi was killed, and hardly anything was left. I used Mirror Dance again to teleport my general and a hag queen away from danger and onto/nearby objectives---this won me the game with the shrine, as it was able to sit on the enemy point and agonize the remaining rats off the board. Won on the last battle round by scoring both objectives.

Quick thoughts:
-Stalkers aren't quite as good without the free rerolls on round 3, but still awesome for power projection and the double-tap if you have CP.
-Khelt Nar free Khinerai are great. If you're not running huge blocks of witches, you really need all the bodies you can get. They were an excellent backup unit when things started going wrong and I needed someone to defend my objective.
-Lifetakers were fine? Hard to judge, half of them were killed by magic and then some dice shenanigans on both sides meant they kind of just stood there doing nothing. I think the outcry around them is exaggerated when they're on 40mm's with 1" range, and still die to a stiff breeze. All I hear is "they do 150 damage!"...yeah that probably ain't gonna happen with the current shooting/magic meta. Three of them couldn't kill 2 stormvermin on the charge so...
-Is Mindrazor worth taking? Didn't cast it the entire game, even with Morathi's +1. Twice I rolled 7's, but that 8---it's rough. I wouldn't ever go into a game expecting to get this thing off. Again, all this mathhammer talk about giving dudes -2 or -3 rend with +1 damage omg!...this spell is so difficult to get off.
-Avatar +1 prayer certainly helped my priest for the first round he was alive. He died immediately after that so I don't know if he was worth the 130.
-Morathi's -1 rend loss is huge. People think this is a joke, but it makes a universe of difference to her output. Attacking a unit with a basic 4+ save (not even rerolling) meant there was a solid amount of damage being negated every combat round (usually 6 or more damage). I still really hope this was a typo from Broken Realms. That said, Morathi still helped tank a couple units for long enough to bring me back in the game.
-Hag queens are still vital for those wound rerolls and prayer buffs. My three snakes still managed to do some damage while stacked with goodies.

I still think Snake heavy lists are gonne be Zainthar Kai or Hagg Nar. Zainthar Kai for the attacks and extra relic to just be a really speedy list. You definitely need an ironscale to just catapult a threat in their face so others can move up relatively safe. 

Hagg Narr obv for the reliability of Witchbrew and defense. 

[swarmofseals]

@Mutton a +1 caster has a 58% chance of resolving Mindrazor overall. Here is the breakdown by roll:

• 16.67% chance of an 8
• 13.88% chance of a 9
• 11.11% chance of a 10
• 8.33% chance of an 11
• 5.56% chance of a 12
• 2.77% chance of a 13

Chances of it NOT being unbound on a flat unbinding roll, +1, and +2 respectively:

• 8: 72.23%, 58.33%, 41.67%
• 9: 83.33%, 72.23%, 58.33%
• 10: 91.67%, 83.33%, 72.23%
• 11: 97.23%, 91.67%, 83.33%
• 12:  100%, 97.23%, 91.67%
• 13: 100%, 100%, 97.23%

So overall with a +1 caster you have the following chances:

• 58.33% against no unbind
• 50.22% against a flat unbind
• 44.82% against +1 unbind
• 37.8% against +2 unbind

Assuming you have a +1 caster then no, Mindrazor isn't reliably resolvable on any particular turn but over the course of the game you should be a solid favorite to get it off at least once even against +2 to unbind. Against anything less than +2 you're pretty likely to get it off multiple times in a game. Note that rerollable unbinds are probably a bit less effective than a +2, but better than a +1.

[Chumphammer]

Slowly making each sect thread with sect abilities  

[Joseph Mackay]

Question for those who have the new battletome, are there still pictures where the Bloodwrack Medusa is clearly on a larger base than the Blood Sisters/Stalkers?

the original battletome had some images and the Grand Alliance Order book where the model was on a 50mm base. My theory is that’s what she was supposed to have but they included the wrong base when they reboxed it and just went ‘****** it’ rather than changing it, and the base sizes document says 40mm because that’s what it comes with. I remember I think it was the first time they updated the document, it listed her on 50mm but changed back after people complained it comes with the wrong base (the same happened with some of the Dispossessed models too)

[Malakithe]

Battletome is out on the app now

[pixieproxy]

Now to wait 6 months before Azyr gets its update.

[Joseph Mackay]

30 minutes ago, pixieproxy said:

Now to wait 6 months before Azyr gets its update.

Yeah, unfortunately the 40K app is more important to them and apparently they don’t have enough people to work on both ;/

[pixieproxy]

Just now, Joseph Mackay said:

Yeah, unfortunately the 40K app is more important to them and apparently they don’t have enough people to work on both ;/

I'm sure we'll get our update in the app when DoK 3.0 comes out!  Didn't they used to be real good about updating? Battlescribe isn't even that great at AoS updates 😢

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, pixieproxy said:

I'm sure we'll get our update in the app when DoK 3.0 comes out!  Didn't they used to be real good about updating? Battlescribe isn't even that great at AoS updates 😢

Yeah the updates used to be pretty fast. Still I was able to get the book at least...

Now...thoughts about some snake lists?

[5kaven5lave]

22 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

@Mutton a +1 caster has a 58% chance of resolving Mindrazor overall. Here is the breakdown by roll:

• 16.67% chance of an 8
• 13.88% chance of a 9
• 11.11% chance of a 10
• 8.33% chance of an 11
• 5.56% chance of a 12
• 2.77% chance of a 13

Chances of it NOT being unbound on a flat unbinding roll, +1, and +2 respectively:

• 8: 72.23%, 58.33%, 41.67%
• 9: 83.33%, 72.23%, 58.33%
• 10: 91.67%, 83.33%, 72.23%
• 11: 97.23%, 91.67%, 83.33%
• 12:  100%, 97.23%, 91.67%
• 13: 100%, 100%, 97.23%

So overall with a +1 caster you have the following chances:

• 58.33% against no unbind
• 50.22% against a flat unbind
• 44.82% against +1 unbind
• 37.8% against +2 unbind

Assuming you have a +1 caster then no, Mindrazor isn't reliably resolvable on any particular turn but over the course of the game you should be a solid favorite to get it off at least once even against +2 to unbind. Against anything less than +2 you're pretty likely to get it off multiple times in a game. Note that rerollable unbinds are probably a bit less effective than a +2, but better than a +1.

You’re a legend. Am I right in thinking that there’s also a reroll casts artefact as well? In which case, which is better out of +1 to cast and reroll to cast? That’s probably loads of work but would be super grateful if you had any stats knocking about. 

[swarmofseals]

49 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

You’re a legend. Am I right in thinking that there’s also a reroll casts artefact as well? In which case, which is better out of +1 to cast and reroll to cast? That’s probably loads of work but would be super grateful if you had any stats knocking about. 

IIRC the reroll cast is a command trait, in other words useless as you can't have it without forgoing a subfaction. I've already done the math on success rate for rerolls vs bonuses. If you are looking at just straight cast percent, generally speaking rerolls are better than +1 but a bit worse than +2. Against unbinds bonuses are going to be slightly better as they are more likelynto result in a high success rather than a low to mid success. Overall I'd pick reroll over +1 but +2 over reroll.

[Milano]

We have our own subforum in Order. Playing such an important role in stabilizing the mortal realms, its the least we deserve 😆

Oh and a list I came up for a game in few days. Any thoughts on that one?

HagNarr

Morathi-Khaine - Mindrazor

Shadow Queen 

Hag on Cauldron - Blessing of Khaine, Iron Circlet

Morgwaeth (Hag) - Cathechism of Murder

Bloodwrack Medusa (General) - Mirror Dance, The Ulfuri

30 x Witch Aelves - bucklers

10x Blood Sisters

10x Blood Stalkers

Vypiric Guard( Battalion)

1980pts. 

I would love to give the cauldron the Ulfuri, but the Iron Circlet feels still too important. Hmm

[swarmofseals]

This list is super dumb but I also kinda expect that it might be broken:

 

Bloodwrack Shrine (general, mindrazor)

Bloodwrack Shrine (mirror dance)

Bloodwrack Shrine (the withering)

Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (either Blessing of Khaine or Catechism of Murder depending on subfaction)

9x5 Blood Stalkers

Extra CP

 

I'm sure others have proposed this list or something like it already. Could also just do 2 Bloodwrack Shrine, drop the CP and go up to 12x5 Blood Stalkers.

Can either be Hagg Nar or Khailebron.

It's just a ton of shooting and four behemoth leaders that are reasonably tough. There's plenty of movement shenanigans, the threat ranges are very good and there's no "weak link" in the list where if it gets sniped the list falls apart. You don't really worry about battleshock because you are MSU. Melee armies will have a hard time because they can't shut you down easily like they can when you are using one big block of snakes.

[Nasrod]

Daughters vs Slaanesh 1500 funsies game with friend. My list leaned in to the monstrous units and shyed away from Elf and Hag Queen spam as I assumed overall little had changed. He is newer but has enjoyed success with Mortek and Slaanesh in the past. 

Hagg Nar

Morathi-Khaine, Shadow Queem, Ironscale General, Hag Queen on Cauldron 

20 Witch Elves, 10 Blood Stalkers, 5 Khinerai Heartenders

Vs

Keeper, Infernal Enrapturess, Herald Exalted Chariot, Contorted Epitome

30 Daemonettes, 10 Hellstriders (Miscalc on points but didn't realize til after)

Game plan is center objectives on deployment zones, 1 on each flank midboard. Yours worth 1, side objectives worth 2, enemy objective worth 4. 

DoK wins roll off gives T1 to Slaanesh. 

Enrapturess wins gift from the Fane. Slaanesh casts Mystic Shield on the Hellstriders before moving them up in a line on left flank objective. 30 Daemonettes and Contorted Epitome take right flank. The Keeper and Exalted Chariot move in behind the Hellstriders. Infernal Enrapturess manages to barely get a bead on Shadow Queen and snipes her for 2. 

Daughters have deployed the Cauldron and Ironscale in center with Witch Elves in 2 lines of 10 on its right and 2 lines of 5 Snakes on the left of it. Shadow Queen is on far left. Morathi-Khaine on far right with Witch Elves. Mindrazor, Reroll fanatical saves prayer, and both parts of Witchbrew go off on the Witch Elves. Shadow of Ulgilu kills 5 Daemonettes.

Unfortunately the witch elves roll a 2 on the run. With the way the Daemonettes hold the right objective, a charge of 9 would be necessary. Movement forward is instead more conservative, bubble wrapping Morathi Khaine and allowing the Cauldron and Snakes to form a "C" shape surrounding the home objective. Shadow Queen aggressively barrels into the left side intending to chokepoint the striders if necessary so they cannot run into the Stalkers/Home objective.

Blood Stalkers shoot the Hellstriders killing 3 and leaving a 4th wounded. The Shadow Queen shoots the Infernal Enrapturess and rolls a 4 on damage, killing it. She then charges the Hellstriders and cuts through 4 more. They fail to wound back and opponent opts to allow them to battleshock away. 

Score 5 Slaanesh, 1 DoK. 

Priority roll goes to Slaanesh who jams the Chariot and Keeper down middle away from Shadow Queen realizing the Stalkers are about to threaten a potential 4 shots if a turn 2 to 3 double turn favors DoK. The Daemonettes and Epitome move down the right hand side, hoping to get a charge on the Witch Elves and deprive them of a pile in with the Epitome.

This crucial turn goes poorly. The Chariot and Daemonettes make their charges, but the Epitome and Keeper don't. Using their 11 on the charge, the Daemonettes wrap in a way that leaves 5 able to reach Morathi-Khaine and 20 attacking the Witch Elves. Meanwhile the Chariot causes 2 mortals to the Cauldron and kills 1 Snake.

Daemonettes fight first. Morathi takes her 3, but only 2 Witch Elves fall to the 20 Daemonettes despite 14 wound rolls. The Elves' Bucklers bounce 3 mortals. The Cauldron piles in and deals 5 wounds to the Chariot. Chariot throws everything into the Snakes and kills 2. Snakes fight back and deal 2 wounds to the Chariot. Mortal wounds finish it off from Crystal Touch. The buffed Witch Elves cut all the Daemonettes down. 

For DoK bottom of 2 a command point is spent on the now freed up Stalkers. They double shoot the Keeper, which the Shadow Queen also shoots at before charging; she kills it in melee before it gets a chance to swing back. The Elves run down the Epitome and steal the right objective in the process. 

Score is 10 to 4 Slaanesh favor, but Slaanesh is literally tabled and DoK win roll off, claiming all objectives at top of 3. In the end, Morathi suffered 5 wounds, 4 Witch Elves died, and 3 Stalkers died. 

Final score

Slaanesh 10, DoK 31

---

Takeaways:

Morathi is good but honestly the alternative to her would have been 10 Blood Stalkers + Bloodwrack Shrine + 10 more Witch Elves + 5 Khinerai Heartenders... which would have been even more oppressive than the OG list. 

Stalkers probably should not be battleline-able. DoK units in general feel far too cheap, especially the Cauldron. Elves and both varieties of Snakes could do with going up 10 points. Hag Queenn Cauldron at MINIMUM should be 250. 220 is absolutely ludicrous.

I still think Hag Narr 5++ is a mistake. Overall the book slapped some power off 90 Witch Elves 3 Hag Queens but that hasn't been the meta for ages. Instead we had that power shifted to crucial ranged interaction that other players would give an arm and a leg for. 

Slaanesh meanwhile cannot play in the manner it did before. The new depravity points have good potential to capitalize with the right list, but melee centric forces stand no chance against tuned lists. Almost certainly all their successful lists will require squeezing blood from the stone and capitalizing on every inch of their movement, summoning fueled by Blissbarb Archers/Seekers, and using Glutos as a rare and invaluable anvil. 

DoK players have been given the luxury of a book that is filled to the brim of viable units. The Slaanesh tome strips away half of the previously viable toys and points and laughs at players who had the audacity to preorder Slaangors and Painbringers/Twinsouls. 

It is a treat that things like dedicated snake armies or even a small squad of Lifetakers look viable now, but oh man it is cruel how much better we made out in comparison to Slaanesh. 

[Nasrod]

2 hours ago, Milano said:

We have our own subforum in Order. Playing such an important role in stabilizing the mortal realms, its the least we deserve 😆

Oh and a list I came up for a game in few days. Any thoughts on that one?

HagNarr

Morathi-Khaine - Mindrazor

Shadow Queen 

Hag on Cauldron - Blessing of Khaine, Iron Circlet

Morgwaeth (Hag) - Cathechism of Murder

Bloodwrack Medusa (General) - Mirror Dance, The Ulfuri

30 x Witch Aelves - bucklers

10x Blood Sisters

10x Blood Stalkers

Vypiric Guard( Battalion)

1980pts. 

I would love to give the cauldron the Ulfuri, but the Iron Circlet feels still too important. Hmm

This is nearly identical to what I played on a 1500 point scale. It majorly overperformed. Be sure you have a role for Morathi; in truth I think it is crucial to utilize her perfectly and tie enemies down to allow your deathstar castle to secure a flank. At 1500 points as much as I love her model, just taking more bodies would have been far superior. 

[Ggom]

Question - is Morgwaeth objectively better than a hag queen on foot? The warscrolls appear identical,  ut Morgwaeth is cheaper and has a squad running with her as well. Why would anyone take hags on foot without first taking Morgwaeth?

[Mutton]

56 minutes ago, Ggom said:

Question - is Morgwaeth objectively better than a hag queen on foot? The warscrolls appear identical,  ut Morgwaeth is cheaper and has a squad running with her as well. Why would anyone take hags on foot without first taking Morgwaeth?

She's keyworded to Hagg Narr, so she can't use other temples' abilities. She also can't have an artifact because she's a named character.

Also everyone remember to send in your FAQ questions now that the book is out!

Edited February 21, 2021 by Mutton

[Malakithe]

Anyone mess around with a Cobra Kai list? I like the snakes and bats

[Chumphammer]

Finished the sect sections so now include sect information like artifacts, traits etc etc.

Means if people are looking for specific faction advice they can post there for ideas

Stops lists being so lost in general chat

[Chumphammer]

Spells are bigger than I thought 

[DJMoose]

5 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Spells are bigger than I thought 

Yeah, the Serpent was surprisingly large! Same size base as the Shadow Queen.