AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
Just a reminder but we do not treat each other rudely when discussing things. There is a way to express your point of view without being rude. I have just issued some points out for those who have been acting this way

[GrandAdmiralAutumn]

2 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

 

*salty snip*

 

Yep, Daughters suck, completely unplayable in a competitive environment ,  might as well sell your army and leave this this thread....

Now that he's gone let's get back to talking about how to actually play this army; Doomfire warlocks with mindrazor seem weirdly viable now with mindrazor, they're doing a lot of damage with 2 attack profiles.  Would they be a good alternative to lifetakers?

[Jacek]

2 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

Could still fight without Mindrazor, Can't TP without TP spell. Or was your plan just to move your models and hope your opponent didn't notice, lol? Also, look at this guy, bragging 'cause they did absolutely nothing to fix ****** our casting has been in the current meta

Could still move without teleport, same efficiency as fighting without mindrazor  and CA from Ironscale makes it easier even without teleport. Did you even play any game or just like to be toxic? Because now DoK can have multiple win conditions.

 

2 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

They always got extra damage on the charge. Did you even read the last book there chief? The rend is nice...or it would be if they hadn't gone up 40pts for a usable unit size. Because yunno, 320-280 is 40. Cause that's how math works? Course maybe you think 10 is plenty, what with all those big tourney lists running nothing but units of 10 witch aelves? Oh wait...lol.

Im not sure if YOU read the book? What was 320 pts? what was usable unit size? you talk about khinerai lifetakers here? Who EVER ran 20 of them? Or WA /SoS? But they were not 320 or 280 pts? WA are 100 pts per 10 now so you can take a unit of twenty and save 40 pts (instead of 120 before). SoS are 120 for 10 without discount now. I did not play WA / SoS but I see if you take 1 unit of SoS - you still have that cost back because of cauldrons points decrease?

Slaughter queen on cauldron is now 60 pts CHEAPER (330 down to 270).

Hag Queen on Cauldron -> 70 pts cheaper (down from 290 to 220)

Unless you ran your cauldron buffed WA /SoS  without cauldron before? (now that is innovative gameplay)

Or did you even play any games before? 

Have a nice day everyone here

Edited February 16, 2021 by Jacek

[Gaz Taylor]

6 minutes ago, Jacek said:

Ok I stop feeding troll, have a nice day everyone here

Yes please don’t do this! Warnings have been issued but I will issue more. The rules are for everybody

[Jacek]

1 minute ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Yes please don’t do this! Warnings have been issued but I will issue more. The rules are for everybody

Ok, sorry, I edited this out

[Feii]

I think this book might have one of the best internal balance in the game. Things got so cheap and almost spammable that there might be so many ways to build an efficient army. 

If you bring bow sneks you can ally an allopex with a rotarius net launcher to protect them more. Even normal snakes and their new crystal touch is awesome.(shame it isnt worded in a way that woul allow you to proc it twice per turn with CA from the Queen of slaughter)

You can focus on heavy Sisters of slaughter because different temples are nice and competitive with each other. 

You can still bring Morathi but she is not so good anymore imo (if yo ucan bring almost 3 hag queens on their cauldron for the same price)

Doomfire warlocks 5 of them are underrated imo - just imagine those stats they have on any other wizard in the game for 120 points. Yeah sure their 2 innate spells are whatever but the doombolt 14 Move  characteristic + one to cast and unbind. 

Witch elves are 10 points per model if you need some nice screens.


From a casual standpoint this book gets eve better because you can truly play anything and feel like your army will have some rules to support your unit choice. 


The only downside I can see is that after the new tome and BR supplement being so close together DoK will get another update maybe in late 2022? But it is upside that what you have wont be changed for quite some time and you can enjoy your army. 

[DaCapo]

Hey guys 

I want to try a new army and i was thinking to try the DOK cos i would love to play an army of snakessss.

The list would be 

1 morathi 600 pts 

1 bloodwrack medusa 100 pts

20 stalkers 560 pts 

10 stalkers 280 pts

Vyperic guard 140 pts

1680 pts

But i dont know what I should add with the last points ? And do you think this is viable ? Or too weak (my main opponent is OBR/orruk)

[DJMoose]

Alright folks, long post ahead!

 

I had a basement batrep on Sunday and my opponent was nice enough to let me try out the new DoK rules before I have the book.

IIRC his list was:

Vortunros -General

Tidecaster

Giant Turtle

2 Sharks with Net Launchers

2x3 Tanky Eels

2x6 Zappy Eels

Fuethan Enclave

Akhelian Corps

1990pts

 

I had the following:

Khaelibron

Bloodwrack Medusa – General

Mistress of Illusion

Shadow Stone

Mindrazor

Ironscale – Whisperdeath

Hag Queen – Catachism of Murder

Hag Queen – Blessing of Khaine

20 Blood Sisters

10 Blood Sisters

10 Blood Sisters

10 Blood Stalkers

Scathcoven

Heart of Khaine

+1 CP

2000pts

 

We played The Better Part of Valor. He had 3 drops and I had 4, and he chose to give me first turn. I stretched my line out to cover all of my objectives, with the 20 unit of Blood Sisters in the center, with Medusa, both Hags, and Ironscale right behind them. The 10 Blood Stalkers were behind the heroes, with a 10 unit of Blood Sisters on each flank. Opponent set up Vorturnos behind a hill while leaving his right objective unoccupied. All the eels and sharks and tidecaster bunched up behind the turtle, sitting on the middle and his left objective.

I was given first turn, and I proceeded to flub Mindrazor, the Heart of Khaine, and Catachism of Murder, which was painfully felt. But also remembering that this indeed a dice game and unfortunately this was one of the games were my dice were not cooperating. I was initially worried about how hard it would be to place the Heart of Khaine. But with a wholly within 12” deployment and then a 12” bubble, had I succeeded in casting the Heart of Khaine it would have been center of the board and able to effect my unit of 20 Blood Sisters. Is 80pts worth it? We shall see, but it definitely would have helped on my first turn had I cast it.

Ironscale used Wrath of the Scathborn on the big unit of snakes. One Hag failed to get the lid off her sippy cup for Witchbrew but the other hag succeeded. Failed the battleshock immunity roll though, which was ok because Scathcoven Battalion.

For the movement phase everything moved forward, with the 20 Blood Sisters rolling only a 2 and a 3 on my run dice and didn't want to spend a CP to make it a 6. Made sure to keep my Blood Stalkers within 12” of my Medusa, because then at the end of the Movement Phase they used the Shadowpaths and set up 9” from Vorturnos on the flank, also claiming that objective. In the shooting phase due to only being able to target the closest Deepkin unit, the Blood Stalkers turned Vorturnos into a pincushion despite him having a 2+ save due to cover. Rolled well and inflicted 5-6 mortals on him.

In the Charge Phase my big unit of 20 Blood Sisters made their do-or die charge and smacked into the turtle, staying far enough away from the eels to not pull them in this round. Despite the turtle also having a 2+ save I managed to inflict I think 6 or so wounds onto it. It swung back and killed 6 snakes (and this is where the Heart would have REALLY helped), and then I brought it down to 2 wounds with Turned to Crystal. After careful re-reading of the scenario rules we realized I technically didn't score any points on the first turn, but I currently had several objectives that I would be able to burn later for points due to most of my army being battleline.

Opponent's 1^st turn involved him smashing back into my unit of 20 snakes. He told me (after the game) that he had originally planned to grab my back-field objectives with the mobility of eels, but my unit of 20 Blood Sisters smashing into him on turn one put him on such a back-foot that he felt he had to deal with the threat. His next turn involved his eels and turtle smacking back into my Blood Sisters, leaving only 4 left. I was able to finish off the turtle and kill I think one eel in return.

I was able to gain priority for turn 2 and proceeded to try to consolidate my line and grab more objectives. Aside from failing both Mindrazor and the Heart of Khaine I tried to kill more eels. He brought more of his eels after my units, realizing he would have to try to thin out my ability to score.

Sadly turn two and three sort of blended together in my head and aside from him wiping out a snake unit on my right flank and hitting another snake unit hard on the left flank I do not remember too much. He did focus fire on my Ironscale and my Medusa, the Ironscale with 3 wounds left and my General barely surviving with 1. But both of them tag-teamed a unit of eels with some support for my other snakes, wiping them out. Medusa's are still fragile but they pack a good wallop now in melee. Also Whisperdeath is a great artifact as it does mortal wounds on 6s in addition to normal damage.

We ended the game on turn 3 as my Blood Stalkers had held their objective the whole time, and I would be able to circle back and grab one of my back-field objectives, while my opponent did not have enough battleline units left to make a difference. It was a close, brutal game fraught with terrible dice rolls. But I learned A LOT.

 

Takeaways:

AoS is a dice game. It sucks, but sometimes you miss those important dice rolls. I REALLY miss the old Shadowstone. Not being able to reroll ones on the cast is missed, but at this point there are not many units in the game that can do that. +1 to cast does help but considering I missed Mindrazor 2-3 times I'll have to think about if it's worth it to have the Shadow Stone still.

While Witchbrew is no longer as reliable on the first turn, it by design becomes more reliable later on. And the improved range instead of 3” actually makes it easier to re-apply in later turns.

Not sure about the Heart of Khaine. Missed casting it 2 out of 3 times. BUT if absolutely would have helped me on those first two turns and it's placement is not quite so difficult as I thought.

The “not being able to move in the next movement phase” from the Khaelibron teleport was not an issue as I did not have a double turn. Certainly interesting wording, but was not too much of an issue.

I really caught my opponent off guard teleporting a blob of Blood Stalkers instead of Blood Sisters. Teleporting the Blood Stalkers onto that objective and killing Vorturnos won me the game, because he could not move close enough to threaten them and also had to deal with the blob of Blood Sisters in the center of his line.

Getting the positioning down with these new wholly-within ranges on nearly every spell and prayer will take some getting use to, but it is definitely doable! I felt like this was a rather good match up, as we both had glass-cannon armies that smashed into each other. So not bad for a test game, and I'll have more games this Saturday after the book comes out, but I'm rather satisfied right now. There is much potential with this new book in my opinion.

 

[Feii]

Lovely basing!  How did you make those bases? 

Also how did the new crystal touch perform and what about our shooty sneks?  

[Feii]

Also I would like to crosspost Rage's comment from the LRL thread and his data. 


"

I'm going to complete a little bit my data.

Syar 57,35% wr in 38 matches

Zaitrec 47,83%wr in 46

Illiatha 37,5 in 8

Ymetrica 34,62% wr in 36

unknown sub-faction 56,25%wr in 64"



I think with these results we can clearly see how an internal balance of the LRL book has a huge difference of 20+ %  between factions in it.  I think the new DoK battletome has many factions that have interesting games and their own functioning niches and we might not get a Syar faction but for the health of this game that's good. If all the  battletomes had this kind of power balance and still look/be fun to  play it would be great for the game!  #Positivity 

[Souleater]

Thanks for the write up. 👍

[DJMoose]

29 minutes ago, Feii said:

Lovely basing!  How did you make those bases? 

Also how did the new crystal touch perform and what about our shooty sneks?  

Thank you!  I purchased some sheet styrene that had a tiled pattern on and then chopped it up to look ruined.  I had one of the guys in my group, Grimdark Live paint up the army for me.  He put Agrellan Earth onto the flat places of the base and then highlighted the whole thing.

The Turned to Crystal ability is dangerous, but as has been discussed previously, diminished by enemy counterattack.  I find it works rather well, despite not being able to alpha strike with it. I'm consistently doing more mortal wounds than I would ever have done with the previous Crystal Touch Ability.

Blood Stalkers are great.  Again, all they needed was the extra attack and the unmodified 6 for Mortal Wounds.  They work well for whatever I need them to do.  Twenty shots at one target with Heartseeker Bows is no joke.  While a blob of 10 worked in this scenario, I might use 2x5 or even one 10 and one 5 depending on the scenario or the particular build I want to try.  This is the general feeling I have with the new Battletome.  We don't have any outright fail units this time around and experimenting with different builds is good!

(Although I still don't think I'll use the Avatar of Khaine.  Yet.  This will be explored.  Unless GW decides to release a female Morathi-Khaine avatar model and I will buy it in a second! Psst GW...take more of my money.)

Edited February 16, 2021 by DJMoose

[Eternalis]

38 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

Unless GW decides to release a female Morathi-Khaine avatar

This is the best idea I've heard this year.
Take my money GW!

[Gokken]

Very nice write up Moose, I noticed you wrote it seems like you did two rolls one for immunity and one for rerolls on witchbrew I am pretty sure its a 5+ for both effects. Also how helpfull was the heart? I think Deepkin is one of the better armies out there really tough to kill.

[Bonesplitterz]

4 minutes ago, Eternalis said:

This is the best idea I've heard this year.
Take my money GW!

Something like that would be awesome!

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/313000242845489442/

[Feii]

16 minutes ago, Eternalis said:

This is the best idea I've heard this year.
Take my money GW!

then they rename the faction to Daughters of Morathi. DoMs for short 😄

[Chumphammer]

I dont mind that DOK have changed. We needed it in some ways and tbh it is making people relook at how they run the army

I have run a few list ideas through my head but atm I am going to stick with HagNar as I prefer the style at this time.

I am hopefully getting a game VS blades of Khorne this Sunday

I am looking at using:

HagNarr
BloodWrack Shrine: 160 General, Mindrazor, Ulfuri (Hagnar item givves +1 damage to spear for D3+1) 
BloodWrack Shrine: 160 MirrorDance
SlaughterQueen on Cauldron: 270 Blessing of Khaine, Iron Circlet 
Morgwaerth The bloodied: 80 Crimson Rejuvenation
BladeCoven: 0
15 Bloodsisters: 390
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
5 Khinari Lifetakers: 80
5 Khinari Lifetakers: 80 
Avatar of Khaine: 130
9 Khainite Shadowstalkers: 100
Heart of Fury: 80
Bloodwrack Viper: 40
Scathcoven: 140
1990pts 2 Casts, 5 dispels, 7 drops, 130W 

depending on play, might drop Morgwaerth and Heart for making both Khinari units of 10 and having the snakes in 3x5

Main idea is sisters in front, cauldrons flanked by shrines behind and then flanked by Stalkers 

Stalkers to clear chaff/target heroes . Shadowstalkers/khinari hit targets of opertunity 

Set up center Obj with the sisters, Heart, cauldron and general as the main anvil line 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Gaz Taylor
Removed inflammatory comment

[DJMoose]

59 minutes ago, Gokken said:

Very nice write up Moose, I noticed you wrote it seems like you did two rolls one for immunity and one for rerolls on witchbrew I am pretty sure its a 5+ for both effects. Also how helpfull was the heart? I think Deepkin is one of the better armies out there really tough to kill.

Again no actual battletome in my sweaty palms, but the way it was written it seemed like you were supposed to roll for each. Otherwise it would have said you get both effects with one +5 instead of mentioning a die roll twice.

The Heart of Khaine would have been more helpful had I got it off earlier. By the third battleround my opponent had little multi-damage attacks left. The potential is there though.

[DJMoose]

1 hour ago, Eternalis said:

This is the best idea I've heard this year.
Take my money GW!

*Whistles*

https://www.etsy.com/shop/Specialminiatures?search_query=avatar

*Buys immediately*

[Lucentia]

4 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

Again no actual battletome in my sweaty palms, but the way it was written it seemed like you were supposed to roll for each. Otherwise it would have said you get both effects with one +5 instead of mentioning a die roll twice.

The Heart of Khaine would have been more helpful had I got it off earlier. By the third battleround my opponent had little multi-damage attacks left. The potential is there though.

It's pretty ambiguous, like you I've no battletome yet, but from memory the second part of the rule reads something like 'On a 5+ the unit automatically passes battleshock tests,' where you might normally expect it to say 'roll a d6' if a separate roll was required, or 'in addition to' if it was not!  I can see the meaning going either way.

One for the FAQ I suppose.  My suspicion is it's supposed to be one roll, it just seems strange to separate the effects like that to me.

[DJMoose]

Using the magic of the internets I have found what we have sought:

Witchbrew:  Distilled from the blood of Slaughter Queens, witchbrew drives the imbiber into such an ecstasy of destruction that they will fight on in the face of impossible odds.

At the start of your hero phase, you can pick 1 friendly Daughters of Khaine unit wholly within 12" of this model to drink witchbrew.  If you do so, roll a dice, adding 1 to the roll for each of the following abilities that this model has gained:

- Headlong Charge

-Zealot's Rage

-Slaughterer's Strength

On a 5+, you can re-roll wound rolls for attacks made with melee weapons by that unit until your next hero phase.  In addition, on a 5+, do not take battleshock tests for that unit until your next hero phase.

So it looks like there are indeed two dice rolls for this ability; one for re-roll wounds and one for battleshock immunity.  And you add 1 to the roll for each of the following abilities.  So both rolls also improve as the battle goes on.

Edited February 16, 2021 by DJMoose

[Ravenborn]

Apologies if this was already discussed; 

Would it be viable to run a unit of Doomfire Warlocks up a flank and drop a Bloodwrack Viper in the midst of your opponent’s army?

I’m guessing the Warlocks would need to park behind some solid terrain to block LOS so they can survive ‘til the next magic round. But they can then drop it 9” toward the enemy, and it can slither another 9”. 

I haven’t played in almost two years, so I’m trying to remember the rules updates  . I’m just so happy to finally have our own endless spells. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Ravenborn

[DJMoose]

2 minutes ago, Ravenborn said:

Apologies if this was already discussed; 

Would it be viable to run a unit of Doomfire Warlocks up a flank and drop a Bloodwrack Viper in the midst of your opponent’s army?

I’m guessing the Warlocks would need to park behind some solid terrain to block LOS so they can survive ‘til the next magic round. But they can then drop it 9” toward the enemy, and it can slither another 9”. 

I haven’t played in almost two years, so I’m trying to remember the rules updates  . I’m just so happy to finally have our own endless spells. 

According to what I have seen, Doomfire Warlocks can ONLY cast Mystic Shield, Arcane Bolt and Doomfire.  Which really, really kills their usefulness.  Otherwise this would be fantastic shenanigans!

[Feii]

24 minutes ago, Ravenborn said:

Apologies if this was already discussed; 

Would it be viable to run a unit of Doomfire Warlocks up a flank and drop a Bloodwrack Viper in the midst of your opponent’s army?

I’m guessing the Warlocks would need to park behind some solid terrain to block LOS so they can survive ‘til the next magic round. But they can then drop it 9” toward the enemy, and it can slither another 9”. 

I haven’t played in almost two years, so I’m trying to remember the rules updates  . I’m just so happy to finally have our own endless spells. 

I am gonna say that endless spells are a some kind of spells. RAI 

 

53 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

I am just not going to acknowledge or reply to toxic people. Thankfully  mods are here.

I dont mind that DOK have changed. We needed it in some ways and tbh it is making people relook at how they run the army

I have run a few list ideas through my head but atm I am going to stick with HagNar as I prefer the style at this time.

I am hopefully getting a game VS blades of Khorne this Sunday

I am looking at using:

HagNarr
BloodWrack Shrine: 160 General, Mindrazor, Ulfuri (Hagnar item givves +1 damage to spear for D3+1) 
BloodWrack Shrine: 160 MirrorDance
SlaughterQueen on Cauldron: 270 Blessing of Khaine, Iron Circlet 
Morgwaerth The bloodied: 80 Crimson Rejuvenation
BladeCoven: 0
15 Bloodsisters: 390
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
5 Khinari Lifetakers: 80
5 Khinari Lifetakers: 80 
Avatar of Khaine: 130
9 Khainite Shadowstalkers: 100
Heart of Fury: 80
Bloodwrack Viper: 40
Scathcoven: 140
1990pts 2 Casts, 5 dispels, 7 drops, 130W 

depending on play, might drop Morgwaerth and Heart for making both Khinari units of 10 and having the snakes in 3x5

Main idea is sisters in front, cauldrons flanked by shrines behind and then flanked by Stalkers 

Stalkers to clear chaff/target heroes . Shadowstalkers/khinari hit targets of opertunity 

Set up center Obj with the sisters, Heart, cauldron and general as the main anvil line 

Shame you dont have the MElusai girl.

[JackStreicher]

@DJMoose where are the DoK bases from?