AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Xil]

22 minutes ago, Sigmarusvult said:

Forcing my opponent to spend a cp  ? Sign  me in. 

 

There are armies that have plenty Command Points, some don't have other uses and others have abilities without command Points such as Quarz / Gold / Other Currency 

[swarmofseals]

1 minute ago, Xil said:

There are armies that have plenty Command Points, some don't have other uses and others have abilities without command Points such as Quarz / Gold / Other Currency 

For sure there are some opponents against which the ability is useless. But "useless in some matchups" is not the same as "completely useless"

 

_____________________________________________________________________________

This build is extremely obvious but I suspect that it'll have some serious play:

Bloodwrack Shrine

Ironscale/Hag Queen

2x20 Stalkers

15 Sisters

5 Khinerai/Iron Heart

Scathcoven

 

Can be Khailebron or Hagg Nar. If you go Hagg Nar you take the Hag Queen and Iron Heart, Khailebron takes Ironscale and Khinerai. Sisters can be taken in any configuration -- not sure what the best bet would be to start.  2 drops and terrifying shooting, weakness in battleplans where only leaders can score.

An alternate build would be to drop down to 5 Sisters and take 2 units of 10 Khinerai. Here the plan would revolve much more around wasting your opponent's time with speedbumps while you shoot.

 

[jhamslam]

1 hour ago, Ser_namron said:

 

Thats still letting your oponent decide how they want to take the attacks versus being able to unleash them as you need. Would you rather have this than start of combat like eels or evocators? Its useable, ill give it that, but it takes the agency away from us and lets the opponent decide if they are going to take MWs or not. It is IMO a completely worse iteration of the same ability. I would still prefer to have their old MW on attack profile, even if they made them unbuffable from things like morathi. Its the only unit in the game that works like this and it is significantly worse for it. 

Making that comparison with evocators is silly. Theres a load of buffs you put on the Blood sisters. Possible hagbrew,  possible CA 2d6 run and charge, +1 attack, Bloodshield, Rites of Battle, Catechism of Murder, the 6 up fanatical faith (more in hag narr). To top it off theyre 130 pts for 5 and battleline. 

Evocators are 220 for 5. Not battleline, and the SCE book can do what exactly? +1 save with a castellant? Theyre not exactly survivable and are highly elite, yeah if you wanna make Blood sister 190, id agree to make the MWs immediate like evocators who basically live or die on their warscroll alone

Edited February 13, 2021 by jhamslam

[jhamslam]

2 hours ago, Mutton said:

After delving into everything, there are only three things I'm discontent with:

1) Morathi rend nerf is big. It may not seem significant, but there are A LOT of traits/abilities/artifacts/etc. that flat ignore -1 rend or reduce it. Not only that, but all of the high armor units in the game (most models coming out nowadays) have 3+ or 2+ saves, often rerolling. There are many units she'll simply bounce off of with only -1 on her primary weapon. No way she'll be able to fight any Idoneth sea creatures, or any Fyreslayers, or KO with gold, or Seraphon dinos, or Lumineth with quartz...hell, even a unit of Sequitors would give her trouble! And the list goes on. I'm still not convinced this isn't an error...so everybody email them about it!

2) Avatar has an actual useful ability now to increase prayer rolls---but he's still too expensive. Knock him down to 100 and we might have something here.

3) Heart of Fury is probably too expensive for how unreliable it is. 3+ to invocate (no way to improve the roll), with a 50% chance to disappear after each battle round. Reducing damage by 1 is cool, but it's only for attacks---not spells or abilities---so it's still limited. 50-60 points would be more reasonable to fit in.

Aside from this stuff, I think the book is great.

Avatar of Khaine can improve the roll. take the iron circlet if the consistency bothers you. 3+ is plenty consistent in AoS for an uninteractable invocation

[swarmofseals]

Clearly the old crystal touch ability (due to attack scaling) or an evocator style ability would be superior to the current crystal touch, but the current crystal touch is still really good. It takes some finesse to use, however.

[JackStreicher]

My issue is that the sisters have their touch at the end of the combat phase.
They basically took a glass cannon and said: Yup, if this glass cannon survives until all combats are done it can actually do mortal wounds. <- Find the mistake. Spoiler: Surviving isn't part of the Glass Cannon's job.

I've tried the new Sisters in three (real) games so far and they didn't do much at all excpet getting wiped after 2 turns of combat at most. They've just taken the fun out of the unit for me. The only feeling I get when using them is "meh", while they used to be scary before.

Edited February 13, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Mutton]

41 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Avatar of Khaine can improve the roll. take the iron circlet if the consistency bothers you. 3+ is plenty consistent in AoS for an uninteractable invocation

Avatar improves the roll from a 4+ to a 3+ to keep the invocation around at the end, but not the initial invocation roll. And Iron Circlet doesn't work because it's not a prayer roll, it's and invocation roll. So we're talking about a 66% chance to cast in a battle round, with a 50% chance (66% if there's an Avatar within 6") to disappear at the end of the round. Those aren't particularly good odds. And again, it doesn't protect against abilities or spells, only attacks.

I still say 80 points is too much.

[Feii]

2 hours ago, Ser_namron said:

Agreed, they needed to make it "before rerolls" to make it anywhere near effective. 

hear me out. "Unmodified hit rolls of 1 targetting this unit cannot be rerolled and the attacker suffers 1 MW for each one of them"  Flavourful rule that would signify that if you ****** up while fighting DoK you are gonna get spanked by them. 

[Fyrm]

10 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I don‘t think it‘s an error. It disallows you to move if you have a double turn, yet in every other case you can move (next movement phase includes your enemy‘s)

Oh! That’s a good point! It’s still the only teleport that works like that to my knowledge, but maybe that’s going to be a new standard going forward?

 

either way, I feel like I’m going to be wishing to go Second often anyways, seeing as I need to protect the snake endless spell. And my control of it. If this line of design is a complicated way to make double turns less appealing...I don’t think it’s that effective, but I suppose it does take some of the bite out of. If they start doing that for other factions, and it’s not just a nerf to us and us alone. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Fyrm

[DJMoose]

34 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

My issue is that the sisters have their touch at the end of the combat phase.
They basically took a glass cannon and said: Yup, if this glass cannon survives until all combats are done it can actually do mortal wounds. <- Find the mistake. Spoiler: Surviving isn't part of the Glass Cannon's job.

I've tried the new Sisters in three (real) games so far and they didn't do much at all excpet getting wiped after 2 turns of combat at most. They've just taken the fun out of the unit for me. The only feeling I get when using them is "meh", while they used to be scary before.

Oh believe me. I wish the Turned to Crystal ability was not at the end of the combat phase. But that's what it is, and we have to make the best of it. How do you make Blood Sisters scary? Buff them and then catapult them across the board at exactly what your opponent doesn't want to die on the first or second turn with the Ironscale. Currently has helped me win the last 4 games I have played. Also if you run snakes take the Scathcoven. We simply cannot afford to lose any models to battleshock when we're already as durable as wet paper.

Edited February 13, 2021 by DJMoose

[Milano]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Didn‘t they even promote her rend 2 with BR:Morathi?

No they didn’t. It has been -2 rend, since the last battletome. They changed the amount of attacks though. I wrote my mail to GW today regarding the rend nerf, my first ever. 

Today I understood an important lesson. GW changes rules in a direction (BR: Mirathi) I get excited and extend my army that way. Finding optimal balance of great models and efficiency on the table. Hundred of € and hours of painting later.. I did it - its perfect 😍  But that seems not the goal of a profit driven company. So they change everything outstanding (Morathi, W.Aelves) into mediocrity and push something different (eg Lifetakers/Stalkers) to the hotspot. I could run after that new carrot 🥕 the new perfect balance. But nah, who cares. I will try some games the way it is and overcome that salty feeling of beeing robbed one day.

[Fyrm]

Ya, that’s the spirit! Focus on a core of what you enjoy, and mix in just enough of oomph to keep games interesting. That’s how I see it. 

[Chumphammer]

The Kraith,
 Morathi-Khaine – 210 Mindrazor
 The Shadow Queen – 390
 Slaughterqueen on Cauldron – 270 General, Venom of Nagendra, Catachism of murder
 20 Sisters of Slaughter – 240 Bucklers
 10 Sisters of Slaughter – 120 Bucklers
 10 Sisters of Slaughter – 120 Bucklers
 10 Khinari Lifetakers – 160
 5 Khinari Heartrenders - 80
 5 Khinari Heartrenders – 80
 9 Khaineite Shadowstalkers – 100
 9 Khaineite Shadowstalkers - 100
 slaughtertroupe – 130

 7 Drops (6 if Kraith get extra SOS in slaughtertroupe)
 Lots of hit and run units to cause chaos while the heartrenders/shadowstalkers capping obj. Morathi stomps stuff with the lifetakers in support on charges with MR

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Fyrm said:

Oh! That’s a good point! It’s still the only teleport that works like that to my knowledge, but maybe that’s going to be a new standard going forward?

I speculate that AoS 3.0 will remove double turns ^^

[Fyrm]

29 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I speculate that AoS 3.0 will remove double turns ^^

That would be a huge change! And would likely mean Predatory Endless Spells would need to be changed up, but that would also be in line with our new ones...

 

Ya, I could definitely see it!

 

Edit: Oh, and to help contribute, here's the snek list I'm toying with! I'm not exactly great at all this, but I think it can hit hard.

Cobra kai temple

Bloodwrack Shrine [general, Crimson Talisman, Mindrazer]

Bloodwrack Medusa [Sevenfold Shadow, Mirror Dance]

Melusai Ironscale [Shadracar's Fang]

20 Blood Sisters

15 Blood Stalkers

15 Blood Stalkers

Balewind Vortex

Bloodwrack Viper

Scathcoven

Extra Command point.

 

Idea is to go hammer and other hammer! Throw Shrine behind enemy lines to cause some damage, hopefully giving Mindrazer before going. Medusa summones the Vortex and uses her teleportation powers to make sure she's always in position to cast as effectively as possible. Ironscale rolls with Sisters to smash some faces in, with the Stalkers providing supporting fire where needed.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Fyrm

[altu]

Am I right that PRIESTs lost  their possibility to pray twice? Can't see it on the prayers page.

[Bonesplitterz]

4 minutes ago, altu said:

Am I right that PRIESTs lost  their possibility to pray twice? Can't see it on the prayers page.

I don’t want you to be right.. but I think you are 😒

[Chumphammer]

3 minutes ago, Bonesplitterz said:

I don’t want you to be right.. but I think you are 😒

No, its still in the flavour text at the top of prayers. Still 2 is in DOK faction 

[VorpalPoolNoodle]

31 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

No, its still in the flavour text at the top of prayers. Still 2 is in DOK faction 

Actually it looks like it says EACH prayer that they know, not just an additional prayer! That means 1 from the warscroll (states have to choose1), one from allegiance and if you have Blood Sigil that's a 3rd.

Edited February 14, 2021 by VorpalPoolNoodle

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, VorpalPoolNoodle said:

Actually it looks like it says EACH prayer that they know, not just an additional prayer! That means 1 from the warscroll (states have to choose1), one from allegiance and if you have Blood Sigil that's a 3rd.

The Iron Heart is an "invocation" and not a prayer, so it wouldn't count against prayer limits even if there was one. Who knows if that will get FAQ'ed or changed though.

[VorpalPoolNoodle]

28 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

The Iron Heart is an "invocation" and not a prayer, so it wouldn't count against prayer limits even if there was one. Who knows if that will get FAQ'ed or changed though.

Well I meant the Slaughter Queen or Hag Queen warscroll. But yeah as of right now the Iron Heart isn't a prayer. 

[Joseph Mackay]

51 minutes ago, VorpalPoolNoodle said:

Well I meant the Slaughter Queen or Hag Queen warscroll. But yeah as of right now the Iron Heart isn't a prayer. 

None of the ‘endless prayers’ are considered prayers from a rules point of view from what I remember 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Joseph Mackay

[5kaven5lave]

Anyone got any pro tips to stop my Sisters of Slaughter from tipping over and getting all tangled up in each other whenever anyone looks at them funny? Cheers!!

EDIT: Also, while I’m asking questions about SoS, can anyone explain to me how you can use the 6” pile-in to fight without taking an attack back? I feel like I’ve heard it’s possible to attack Eels first on turn 3 for example by lurking outside of 3”? 

Edited February 14, 2021 by 5kaven5lave

[DantePQ]

Morathi is still the best "leader" model in the game - rend2 or rend1 - she was mainstay in DoK armies for years and at 120 extra you get 

- 3 casts every turn and 2 unbinds at +1 

- amazing CA to use everytime she's on a table

- two roadblocks vs 1 

- better "damage table" 

- endless spells and auot-kill stuff doesn't effect her 

- buffs to Melusai and Khinerai 

- always being a general (which is huge for some new CA in DoK book like Khailebron teleport) 

Sure rend2 on lance would be amazing but she is still such an amazing tactical piece. 

[Fred1245]

16 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Making that comparison with evocators is silly. Theres a load of buffs you put on the Blood sisters. Possible hagbrew,  possible CA 2d6 run and charge, +1 attack, Bloodshield, Rites of Battle, Catechism of Murder, the 6 up fanatical faith (more in hag narr). To top it off theyre 130 pts for 5 and battleline. 

Evocators are 220 for 5. Not battleline, and the SCE book can do what exactly? +1 save with a castellant? Theyre not exactly survivable and are highly elite, yeah if you wanna make Blood sister 190, id agree to make the MWs immediate like evocators who basically live or die on their warscroll alone

Yay, if you devote 1500pts of your list to them, your 130pts of blood sisters might end up being close to as good as 220pts of evocators!

The truth is that with this book, DoK have no significant melee threats any more. Witch Aelves ate multiple nerfs, Blood Sisters ate multiple nerfs, Morathi ate a severe nerf, all of our melee buffs got nerfed. Add in that the entire army got a mobility nerf due to the wholly within changes and there's really no point to trying to build melee DoK anymore.

Our best outlook for the future is to completely toss out melee. The less you can spend on the combat phase, the better. In my opinion, our best competitive list going forward looks something like this:

Hagg Narr

Hag Cauldron 220 Blessing of Khaine

Bloodwrack Shrine General 160 The Withering

Avatar of Khaine 130 (for+1 to prayer)

20 Blood Stalkers 520

5 Blood Stalkers 140

5 Blood Stalkers 140

5 Blood Stalkers 140

5 Blood Stalkers 140

5 Blood Stalkers 140

5 Blood Stalkers 140

Iron Heart Endless Prayer thing 80

CP 50

You'll never have less drops than your opponent but whether you go first or second doesn't really matter. 100 shots per turn should be plenty of damage against most armies. You have enough defensive buffs to castle on one or two objectives without issue, MSU blood stalkers give you flexibility for low investment capturing of objectives outside your bubble. You get to ignore how clunky everything is for the majority of the game. And when you finally get forced into combat (which DoK should avoid as much as possible) using the superfluous melee buffs they gave a shooting army for whatever reason, blood stakers can finish off units weakened with melee. You know, should the roulette wheel decide you actually get to use those buffs this game.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Fred1245