AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Jacek]

I made a list of shooting DoK, 2 drop total and made to buff Blood Stalkers as much as possible (I think)

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
 - Temple: Khailebron
LEADERS
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Mistress of Illusion
- Artefact: Shadow Stone
- Lore of Shadows: Steed of Shadows
Hag Queen (100)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: The Withering
The Shadow Queen (390)
UNITS
10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
15 x Blood Stalkers (360)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
BATTALIONS
Cauldron Guard (120)
Vyperic Guard (140)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 WOUNDS: 99
 

Due to points limitation - losing 1 artefact but it is 2 drop total and also got 3 CP + 1 free command ability from Vyperic Guard

In theory can get nice dmg output (if you get double turn then should be horryfing):

1. give your opponent 1st turn (as we try to aim for fast double turn)

Your hero phase:
2. on your first turn teleport Blood Stalkers into range of shooting (24") if they are out of it (remember to keep them in range of Morathi and Hag Queen)
   If they are already in range - can teleport Morathi so she is in range of the withering (18") on enemy and still in range of her Command Ability (Blood Stalkers wholly in 24"). Can save it for something else if no need for above teleports
3. Prayer: Catehism of Murder on blood Stalkers (circlet makes it easier)
4. Morathi casts the withering on Blood Stalkers target (+1 to wound)
5. PEW PEW PEW in hero phase - 30 attacks, 3+ (6s are mortal wounds AND additional hit if prayer kicks in) / 3+ (2+ with withering) / rend -1
Your Shooting Phase
6. repeat PEW PEW PEW (same as point 5)
7. If there is double turn - repeat from point 2.
Khinerai are there to help get objectives
Shadow Queen can aslo combat something etc.

Witch Aelves are for battlelines limit only and also fit into battalion , can use those as screens

 

What do you think?

[Lucentia]

Catechism of Murder applies in the combat phase only, as do most DoK buffs.

[Jacek]

52 minutes ago, Lucentia said:

Catechism of Murder applies in the combat phase only, as do most DoK buffs.

Thank you for input, I'm new with DoK and failed to notice.

Seems like pew pew tactic is not so great but still I think I'll tweak it a bit and try it (in that case let you know)

[Nuitari]

7 hours ago, Jacek said:

I made a list of shooting DoK, 2 drop total and made to buff Blood Stalkers as much as possible (I think)

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
 - Temple: Khailebron
LEADERS
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Mistress of Illusion
- Artefact: Shadow Stone
- Lore of Shadows: Steed of Shadows
Hag Queen (100)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: The Withering
The Shadow Queen (390)
UNITS
10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
15 x Blood Stalkers (360)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
BATTALIONS
Cauldron Guard (120)
Vyperic Guard (140)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 WOUNDS: 99
 

Due to points limitation - losing 1 artefact but it is 2 drop total and also got 3 CP + 1 free command ability from Vyperic Guard

In theory can get nice dmg output (if you get double turn then should be horryfing):

1. give your opponent 1st turn (as we try to aim for fast double turn)

Your hero phase:
2. on your first turn teleport Blood Stalkers into range of shooting (24") if they are out of it (remember to keep them in range of Morathi and Hag Queen)
   If they are already in range - can teleport Morathi so she is in range of the withering (18") on enemy and still in range of her Command Ability (Blood Stalkers wholly in 24"). Can save it for something else if no need for above teleports
3. Prayer: Catehism of Murder on blood Stalkers (circlet makes it easier)
4. Morathi casts the withering on Blood Stalkers target (+1 to wound)
5. PEW PEW PEW in hero phase - 30 attacks, 3+ (6s are mortal wounds AND additional hit if prayer kicks in) / 3+ (2+ with withering) / rend -1
Your Shooting Phase
6. repeat PEW PEW PEW (same as point 5)
7. If there is double turn - repeat from point 2.
Khinerai are there to help get objectives
Shadow Queen can aslo combat something etc.

Witch Aelves are for battlelines limit only and also fit into battalion , can use those as screens

 

What do you think?

You cannot use vyperic guard with khailebron until FAQ  or new book explain this. 

[Graywater]

34 minutes ago, Nuitari said:

You cannot use vyperic guard with khailebron until FAQ  or new book explain this. 

Its not very clear. There isn't anything written that excludes being able to take the battalions in other temples. I agree that we need an FAQ to clarify though. 

[Frowny]

Given that each part of morathi has a different warscroll, is it allowed to take only one? I can see value in each half in some situations.

[Lileath]

9 hours ago, Jacek said:

J'ai fait une liste de tir DoK, 2 gouttes au total et fait pour améliorer autant que possible les Blood Stalkers (je pense)

Allégeance: Filles de Khaine
 - Temple: Khailebron
LEADERS
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- Général
- Trait de commandement: Maîtresse de l'illusion
- Artefact: Shadow Stone
- Lore of Shadows: Steed of Shadows
Hag Queen (100)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prière: Catechism of Murder
Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: The Withering
The Shadow Queen (390)
UNITÉS
10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Couteaux sacrificiels et
boucleurs de lame 10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Couteaux sacrificiels et boucliers à lame
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
15 x Blood Stalkers (360)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
BATTALIONS
Chaudron Guard (120)
Vyperic Guard (140)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 PLAIES: 99
 

En raison de la limitation des points - perdre 1 artefact mais c'est 2 drop total et également obtenu 3 CP + 1 capacité de commande gratuite de Vyperic Guard

En théorie, vous pouvez obtenir une belle sortie DMG (si vous obtenez un double tour, cela devrait être horryfing):

1. donnez à votre adversaire le premier tour (alors que nous essayons de viser un double tour rapide)

Votre phase des héros:
2. lors de votre premier tour, téléportez les Blood Stalkers à portée de tir (24 ") s'ils sont hors de portée (n'oubliez pas de les garder à portée de Morathi et Hag Queen)
   S'ils sont déjà à portée - peut téléporter Morathi elle est donc à portée du flétrissement (18 ") sur l'ennemi et toujours à portée de sa capacité de commandement (Blood Stalkers entièrement en 24"). Peut la conserver pour autre chose si vous n'avez pas besoin de téléporter ci-dessus.
3. Prière: Catéisme du meurtre sur Blood Stalkers (le cercle rend les choses plus faciles)
4. Morathi jette le flétrissement sur la cible Blood Stalkers (+1 à la blessure)
5. PEW PEW PEW en phase des héros - 30 attaques, 3+ (6s sont des blessures mortelles ET un coup supplémentaire si la prière donne un coup de pied) in) / 3+ (2+ avec flétrissement) / rend -1
Votre phase de prise de vue
6. répéter PEW PEW PEW (identique au point 5)
7. S'il y a double tour - répéter à partir du point 2.
Khinerai est là pour aider à atteindre les objectifs
Shadow Queen peut également combattre quelque chose, etc.

Witch Aelves est réservé à la limite des lignes de bataille et s'intègre également au bataillon, peut les utiliser comme écrans

 

Qu'est-ce que tu penses?

Hi, I would also say that the blood stalkers cost 140 not 120 so 420 for the 15 😉

[Graywater]

1 hour ago, Frowny said:

Given that each part of morathi has a different warscroll, is it allowed to take only one? I can see value in each half in some situations.

No, if you want one, you have to take both forms. 

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Graywater said:

Its not very clear. There isn't anything written that excludes being able to take the battalions in other temples. I agree that we need an FAQ to clarify though. 

It‘s actually written perfectly clear o.O. Just not at the spot one would expect it ^^

[Graywater]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

It‘s actually written perfectly clear o.O. Just not at the spot one would expect it ^^

It gives explicit allowance for that temple to access it. But there isn't anything that says ONLY that temple can use those battalions. The battalions dont have ANY keywords actually. So its tough to say. Definitely need an faq to clarify. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Graywater

[Milano]

Hi there,

here is my idea for a mixed DoK 1k army.   I’ll start with classic Hagg Nar, have some games and learn how to get to 2k eventually. 

Slaughter queen on Cauldron 330

Hag queen 100

30x witch aelves 300

10x witch aelves 120

5x Blood Stalkers 140

990pts

What do you say? 
Cheers,
Milano

[Zerthin]

I believe for 1k as in meeting engagament you're limited to 2xbase size. So 2x20 witch aelves. Not 30+10. So this would leave you with 50 points over the cap. Maybe dropping Hag Queen for an endless spell or a cp would sole that for now?

Edited November 18, 2020 by Zerthin

[Jacek]

5 hours ago, Nuitari said:

You cannot use vyperic guard with khailebron until FAQ  or new book explain this. 

Thank you for pointing that out, I missed that as well. Now when I check it seems right:

When you pick the Daughters of Khaine allegiance for your army, you can say it will be a Zainthar Kai
army. If you do so, it has access to the Temple of Khaine rules at the bottom of this page and can include the
warscroll battalions to the right.

So I understand:

If I pick Zainthar Kai then I can use those warscroll battalions

 

4 hours ago, Lileath said:

Hi, I would also say that the blood stalkers cost 140 not 120 so 420 for the 15 😉

I double checked that now, seems you are right - in Shadow and Pain cost is 140

I used Warscroll Builder and it seems price there is not valid (120), not sure why.

 

Shooting army then seems bad idea, thank you all for pointing my mistakes.

 

So what do you guys think about below 2k snakes melee ?

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
 - Temple: Hagg Nar
LEADERS
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Lore of Shadows: Shroud of Despair
Melusai Ironscale (140)
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Crown of Woe
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
The Shadow Queen (390)
UNITS
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
10 x Witch Aelves (120) or 5 x Blood Sisters (140)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)

TOTAL: 1970/2000 (or 1990 in case of 5 Blood Sisters instead of Aelves) WOUNDS: 108

 

1. Got a bit of survi (save 4+ near cauldron and 5+ faith rerolled with prayer) for big unit of snakes. This somehow mitigates fact that in most cases enemy will decide who goes first and also for snakes to survive when Ironscale fights before Blood Sisters for +1 attack bonus.

2. Can get +2 attack bonuses for Blood Sisters (1 from Shadow Queen and 1 from Ironscale) and also possibility of fighting in hero phase (but then no bonus from Ironscale so max 4 attacks per Blood Sister)

3. If Mindrazor comes in: Crown of Woe reduces enemy bravery -1, Shroud of Despair: chance to reduce -1 to -3, Avatar on Cauldron: DoK bravery +1. If that kicks in: each Blood Sister 5 attacks -2 rend 2 damage (in most cases), 3+ (rerolls from turn 3) /3+ (rerolls from Hag)

Basically keep army together as much as possible, use 2 small battlelines as screens / meatshields etc and hit hard with 20 Blood Sisters.

 

I hope I did not make any mistakes now?

 

[Aelfric]

On 11/17/2020 at 4:11 PM, Fred1245 said:

It's honestly not super relevant.  I doubt you'll even see it because of how few...cares...kharadron seraphon and tzeentch give about a list like that. They need a character to get up to 2+ and they need to not move OR redeploy in order to stand fast AND it has to be in THEIR movement phase so realistically this will only ever come into play if you let them set up on an objective uncontested or they get a double turn where they're already in combat with you.  On the flip side, YOU getting the double turn before he can position to get the buff would end the game immediately. (If they keep the liberators in the sky to drop they BETTER be going second because you can just hold the double turn all game until they do and then they're stuck with a flaccid drop that loses instantly if you win the next turn roll).

Even at 2+ rerolling it would be a shooting gallery for the big 3 and an easy win on objectives for most other melee armies.  

If you know for a fact that you'll be facing a list like this, the Morath+20 stalkers Khailebron list is a pretty good counter considering that you can still kill liberators pretty well, the snakes are fairly easy to protect and the list is fast enough to just outrun the Stormcasts if you need to.

Unless they put them in the battalion that allows you to re-deploy the whole battalion anywhere outside 9" before the start of turn one.

[Chumphammer]

Random Non Morathi Idea:

2 Drops, 126 Wounds
Hagg Nar 
Bloodwrack Shrine: 210 - General, Mind Razor, Shadowstone, Devoted Disciples
Hag Queen on Cauldron: 290  - Ironcirclet, Blessing of khaine
20 Blood Sisters: 480
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Sisters: 140
15 Blood Stalkers: 420
5 Heart Renders: 90
5 Heart Renders: 90
Scathcoven: 140

Or knock the Stalkers down to 10 and take an ironscale

Hagg Nar 
Bloodwrack Shrine: 210 - General, Mind Razor, Shadowstone, Devoted Disciples
Hag Queen on Cauldron: 290  - Ironcirclet, Blessing of khaine
Ironscale: 140
20 Blood Sisters: 480
10 Blood Sisters: 280
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Stalkers: 140
5 Heart Renders: 90
5 Heart Renders: 90
Scathcoven: 140

Edited November 19, 2020 by Chumphammer

[Nuitari]

1 hour ago, Jacek said:

Shooting army then seems bad idea, thank you all for pointing my mistakes.

 

I realy like shooting list I’m testing

Morathi 210

Withering
Shadow Queen 390
Meduza 140

Mindrazor
5 Blood Sisters 140
5 Blood Sisters 140
5 Blood Sisters 140
5 Blood Stalkers 140
20 Blood Stalkers 560
Temple Nest 130
Khailebron 
3 dropy 1990 pts

I’m 1-1 against KO (Barak Zilfin)

Won vs Khorne (mortals) and OBR, on friday I’ll be playing vs CoS. 
This is realy strong right now, maybe little tweeks and change in numbers: 10,5,5 sisters and 15,5 stalkers but I’m not sure.

[DJMoose]

2 hours ago, Nuitari said:

I realy like shooting list I’m testing

Morathi 210

Withering
Shadow Queen 390
Meduza 140

Mindrazor
5 Blood Sisters 140
5 Blood Sisters 140
5 Blood Sisters 140
5 Blood Stalkers 140
20 Blood Stalkers 560
Temple Nest 130
Khailebron 
3 dropy 1990 pts

I’m 1-1 against KO (Barak Zilfin)

Won vs Khorne (mortals) and OBR, on friday I’ll be playing vs CoS. 
This is realy strong right now, maybe little tweeks and change in numbers: 10,5,5 sisters and 15,5 stalkers but I’m not sure.

Interesting. How did it play?

[Nuitari]

5 hours ago, DJMoose said:

Interesting. How did it play?

I have simply plan for games:

Morati and Queen ties up biggest treats, Stalkers shoot them out, and Sisters grab objectives and screening.

KO - S-tier - hard MU, they can shoot you easy for 40 dmg, you have to protect Stalkers. They have similiar plan for game, teleport-fly high- and shoot everything.

Khorne that was easy game, opp played mortals list, Queen ties up 30 Blood Warriors and hit them for 27 dmg!! Game was over after round 2. I lost 5 sisiters, my opponent eberything except one hero and unit of 5 warriors.

Teleport and shooting in hero phase are MVP.  I set up my Stalkers and Meduza as far as possible vs shooting, and if I have opportunity I give first turn to opponent (when I get dubble - it’s devastating for them) and in my first I teleport Stalkers and shoot twice. Never played vs LRL but I can imagine I want go first to shoot Teclis in firs activation. 
I’m realy happy with snakes, Stalkers are great, Sisters are just for screening and cannon fooder, don’t care about them much. 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Nuitari

[Jacek]

8 hours ago, Nuitari said:

I realy like shooting list I’m testing

Morathi 210

Withering
Shadow Queen 390
Meduza 140

Mindrazor
5 Blood Sisters 140
5 Blood Sisters 140
5 Blood Sisters 140
5 Blood Stalkers 140
20 Blood Stalkers 560
Temple Nest 130
Khailebron 
3 dropy 1990 pts

I’m 1-1 against KO (Barak Zilfin)

Won vs Khorne (mortals) and OBR, on friday I’ll be playing vs CoS. 
This is realy strong right now, maybe little tweeks and change in numbers: 10,5,5 sisters and 15,5 stalkers but I’m not sure.

That seems very nice.

I have total of 40 melusai (not yet glued together so Im deciding what to make, was thinking 20 Blood Sisters and 20 Blood Stalkers) so this kind of build I would have to sacrifice 5 Blood Sisters -.-

Anyone got experience maybe in magnetising melusai? Maybe magnet like 10 of them to swap between bows and spears when needed? In that case would have to magnetise weapons, heads and quivers /addons ? Seems like a lot of work but if it is possible - saves a lot of money

[Milano]

12 hours ago, Zerthin said:

I believe for 1k as in meeting engagament you're limited to 2xbase size. So 2x20 witch aelves. Not 30+10. So this would leave you with 50 points over the cap. Maybe dropping Hag Queen for an endless spell or a cp would sole that for now?

I was going for regular matched play games with 1k. Afterwards add more models to play more regular sized games ~2k

[Overread]

Soo been reading the new DoK book! 

I'm through the first of the three short stories (its 3 shorts surrounded by a start and finish of an overarching story) and overall have enjoyed it. There's one niggle that stands out to fans, but which is a passable thing you can overlook (and if one reads the story you can even see potential for how it can be explained away whilst fitting within the lore as an exception rather than the normal). 
A more detailed summary below but WARNING it contains spoilers. Seriously its more there for those who have read to chat about it rather than for those who have yet to read it. 

Spoiler

So the first story is a neat tale of a witch aelf who sounds like she's making the first steps into becoming a Shadowstalker. The story is well written, the pacing good and the combat is fast and bloody (as befits Khaines teachings). The way she battles deamonettes we get a respectful take on the demons with them being shown as far more deadly individually than we often see for the deamonettes. Indeed the whole mental and musk tricks they pull are really well shown.

What's very interesting is the mental play through of the main character. We get a great sense of that timeless aelf lifespan throwing up its oddities in how a character perceives themselves and the world around them in terms of maturity. Whereby a character with an age we'd expect to be "very mature" shows some surprising immaturity. It's well placed and I think plays well to the nature of aelves in general. There's also a great sense of the loneliness that the DoK exhibit; that push for individual perfection and superiority. 

There's also a bit of a love story woven into it which I really enjoyed as a concept to be presented. It plays into the whole "300 Spartans" style of Greek influences that are present in the DoK. 

 

There's an odd inconsistency with the lore though that I'm surprised slipped through. Early in the story the character notes that she's not a powerful mage and can't even "transform into a medusa". Later on there's a pitched fight where a queen completes transformation into a medusa. This is clearly a double mix up - first on the term medusa instead of melusai (which I'm really surprised slipped through); but also on the concept of what melusai and bloodwracks are. I'm thinking the author got mixed up between Morathi and the bloodwrack lore and for some reason - either time or such - GW didn't catch or change it. It's a minor element really and its not unreasonable to think that transformation magic exists, just not on the type or nature we've seen with the DoK. It's not something I'd expect to see again and its really the only element that stands out. 

If you wanted to explain it away within the lore then one can take the extremist nature of the Queen in the story and deduce that she's pushed her studies into transformation magics in an attempt to use it as a means to further her own cause. Thus any witch aelf brought into the inner circles might be taught things that appear "normal" but which are actually gross exceptions to the normal. 

 

[Graywater]

18 hours ago, Milano said:

Hi there,

here is my idea for a mixed DoK 1k army.   I’ll start with classic Hagg Nar, have some games and learn how to get to 2k eventually. 

Slaughter queen on Cauldron 330

Hag queen 100

30x witch aelves 300

10x witch aelves 120

5x Blood Stalkers 140

990pts

What do you say? 
Cheers,
Milano

Solid start. Youre including the best of our warscrolls. The 5 stalkers may be the most underperforming in this list currently, but they will scale well as you move to 2k and bump up their unit size a bit.

[Scruf]

19 hours ago, Graywater said:

It gives explicit allowance for that temple to access it. But there isn't anything that says ONLY that temple can use those battalions. The battalions dont have ANY keywords actually. So its tough to say. Definitely need an faq to clarify. 

I 100% agree. All the other battalions in the book have limitations. SCE has some of the same language where it says if you pick the SCE allegiance, you can say it'll be a Stormkeep army and ALL of their battalions say "This battalion can only be included in a Stormkeep army".

It needs an FAQ for sure, but if it comes and we don't get a ruling (looking at you Emergency Ventplates) then there's no limiting language on using them in other temples.

[swarmofseals]

19 hours ago, Graywater said:

It gives explicit allowance for that temple to access it. But there isn't anything that says ONLY that temple can use those battalions. The battalions dont have ANY keywords actually. So its tough to say. Definitely need an faq to clarify. 

This explanation is going to be a little bit arcane, but there are basically two theories to the ways that rules function:

• Sets of rules that tell you what you can do. In this case the rules need to approve something for it to be within the rules.
• Sets of rules that tell you what you can't do. In this case anything goes unless the rules prohibit it.

The rules to Age of Sigmar are the first type. They tell you what you can do, and if the rules don't say that you can do something then you can't do it. Your argument relies on the rules being interpreted as the second type.

 

[Graywater]

7 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

This explanation is going to be a little bit arcane, but there are basically two theories to the ways that rules function:

• Sets of rules that tell you what you can do. In this case the rules need to approve something for it to be within the rules.
• Sets of rules that tell you what you can't do. In this case anything goes unless the rules prohibit it.

The rules to Age of Sigmar are the first type. They tell you what you can do, and if the rules don't say that you can do something then you can't do it. Your argument relies on the rules being interpreted as the second type.

 

Hmm. That makes sense. I would still like for them to explicitly address this though, because their approach to battalions is not always the most clear.