AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Jais]

Impacts from the July 2018 FAQs

• 1) Bummer - Morathi cannot double the set-up range of Endless Spells. 
• 2) Bummer - Morathi can be damaged beyond her Iron Heart threshold by Endless Spells, between rounds.
• 3) Perk - The specific  realm  artefact that nullifies enemy artefacts cannot affect Morathi's Iron Heart.
• 4) Confirmation - No matter the battalion, allies do not receive allegiance abilities nor can they generals.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Jais

[DJMoose]

4 hours ago, Jais said:

Impacts from the July 2018 FAQs

• 1) Bummer - Morathi cannot double the set-up range of Endless Spells. 
• 2) Bummer - Morathi can be damaged beyond her Iron Heart threshold by Endless Spells, between rounds.
• 3) Perk - The specific  realm  artefact that nullifies enemy artefacts cannot affect Morathi's Iron Heart.
• 4) Confirmation - No matter the battalion, allies do not receive allegiance abilities nor can they generals.

More on #1. Later in that same answer it says things that let you cast spells originating from a point other than the wizard (aka umbral spellportal) cannot be used for endless spells. BIG Nerf there.

[JD222]

Another bummer- Allies cannot take any artefacts= assassin ally nerf thought it would be funny to add the -3 rend artefact. 

[Overread]

It's a pain but thankfully the Assassin is still very good even on its own without any artifacts 

[Scythian]

O.K., Crew, here’s a rules question we’re having. Can a non general slaughter queen use her orgy of slaughter command ability? Some say no, she has to be the general. Others are saying, yes, that all characters can use their command abilities now. Give me your insights, references, etc. 

 

 

[Scythian]

It says on her warscroll she must be the general to use orgy of slaughter, but others are telling me that ALL characters can use their command abilities in the new edition, regardless of whether they’re the general. This is of course for matched play games. 

[Olincay]

2 minutes ago, Scythian said:

It says on her warscroll she must be the general to use orgy of slaughter, but others are telling me that ALL characters can use their command abilities in the new edition, regardless of whether they’re the general. This is of course for matched play games. 

With faq's being topsy turvy at the moment, who knows.
But from my understanding she must be your general.

[DJMoose]

34 minutes ago, Scythian said:

O.K., Crew, here’s a rules question we’re having. Can a non general slaughter queen use her orgy of slaughter command ability? Some say no, she has to be the general. Others are saying, yes, that all characters can use their command abilities now. Give me your insights, references, etc. 

Rules as written, the Slaughter Queen has to be the general. Rules as intended is probably for ALL heroes to be able to use command abilities. But due to the clause "If this model is your general"  it leads me to believe that the Slaughter Queen must be your general to use the Orgy of Slaughter ability. Unfortunate, but it looks that way to me.

[Overread]

It's not even an intended vs written argument. The language is very clear, she MUST be your general to use her command ability. This will remain the case unless GW issues an update to change that wording. There really isn't any debate here. 

 

In general if people argue about rules just ask them to show you where its clearly printed. IF they start going on about "Well that's what the rule says, but I'm sure its intended...." then you are fully within your right to deny  them and play to the rules of the game (esp since many "intended" arguments are often just people trying to impose their own personal preferences on the game). 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Overread

[misthv]

On 7/27/2018 at 1:09 AM, Jais said:

Impacts from the July 2018 FAQs

• 1) Bummer - Morathi cannot double the set-up range of Endless Spells. 
• 2) Bummer - Morathi can be damaged beyond her Iron Heart threshold by Endless Spells, between rounds.
• 3) Perk - The specific  realm  artefact that nullifies enemy artefacts cannot affect Morathi's Iron Heart.
• 4) Confirmation - No matter the battalion, allies do not receive allegiance abilities nor can they generals.

Would you care to explain #2? Thanks!

[Lucentia]

Predatory Endless spells that are already on the board are moved in between battle rounds (with players alternating on picking a spell to 'activate'), several of these endless spells have effects which can cause damage to units that they move over or close to.  Because this damage is dealt in between battle rounds it is outside of 'a turn' for the purposes of the Iron Heart of Khaine rule, and so will not count towards the maximum 3 wounds Morathi can suffer in a single turn.

Fortunately most damage-dealing endless spells need to get quite close to be able to do their damage, so it's generally easy enough to zone them off until you can move them/Morathi out of each other's way.  Also note that this only applies to endless spells after they've been summoned and are moving about the board, not when they are first cast which is part of a regular hero phase within a player turn.

[Gecktron]

7 hours ago, Overread said:

It's not even an intended vs written argument. The language is very clear, she MUST be your general to use her command ability. This will remain the case unless GW issues an update to change that wording. There really isn't any debate here. 

 

In general if people argue about rules just ask them to show you where its clearly printed. IF they start going on about "Well that's what the rule says, but I'm sure its intended...." then you are fully within your right to deny  them and play to the rules of the game (esp since many "intended" arguments are often just people trying to impose their own personal preferences on the game). 

Also, just like every other Battletome since Maggotkin, the Daughters of Khaine where written with AoS 2 in mind. Her being the general to use her ability is rule as intended. Just like the Akhelian King of the Idoneth Deepkin has to be your general to use his ability. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Gecktron

[Scythian]

Thanks for the feedback, crew. I believe she can’t use it in my armies’ case. I appreciate your feedback. 

[DantePQ]

Ok so I decided to give this army a go as I prepare to take part in Warhammer Fest Europe Throne of Skulls tournament, it's an army I will be playtesting. 

HaggNar Temple

Realm : Uglu 

Morathi + Mindrazor 

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron + Spellmirror + Blessing of Khaine - General 

3xHag Queen (Catechism of Murder, Martyr's Sacrifice, Sacrament of Blood) 

30 Witch Elves with bucklers 

30 Witch Elves with double knives 

30 Sisters of Slaughter with knives 

5 Heartrenders 

Endless Spell : Chronomatic Cogs 

30 points left so big chace to get a Triumph as well. Very mobile, hard to kill, also prayers are much better then spells now (that's why there is only one spellcaster), 2 sources of unbind. I was thinking about dropping Morathi but she's such big tactical toolbox in AoS 2.0 that it's hard to drop her (considering that you got to take Bloodwrack Shrine instead of her so you don't have that many spare points anyway).  Also by having buckler Witches and Sisters of Slaughter nearby it's quite hard for opponent to play around it. 

Things to consider 

Realm Artifact - I must look throught the list again but Spellmirror looks awesome but not very reliable, Crown of Woe could be great as well as some other items:

Endless Spell : Chronomatic Cogs looks like no brainer as you can use it to advance like crazy or play it safe with Morathi near Cauldron having 3+ re-rollable save, sure enemy can disepl it but it's not so easy and you can cast it from afar with Morathi (for movement bonus) as her spell range is even more precious in new edition. Using damage dealing endless spells is double-edged sword especially with new FAQ and Morathi. 

I played little doubles tournament yesterday which I won with my friend (2x1000 DoK + Sylvaneth) and 30 Witches with Blessing of Khaine and Bucklers with Cauldron behind were brutal and almost single-handly won all three games. 

[Overread]

Here's a question for those in the know; being a new army and as the only points, for us directly, that changed are the Battalions (which can be easily found on the warscroll builder and errata) I'm wondering if the General's Handbook offers Daughters players enough to make it worthwhile getting. 

[Jais]

I see here in the Designer's Commentary about Blood Stalkers NOT gaining their Mortals wounds, even when it specifically says "as if it were the shooting phase."

Q: Blood Stalkers’ Heartseeker Bows inflict mortal wounds in the shooting phase. Morathi, High Oracle of Khaine lets units shoot ‘as if it were the shooting phase’. Do the Blood Stalkers’ shots inflict mortal wounds when she lets them shoot? A: No. How to deal with abilities that allow a unit to act as if it were a different phase is covered in the Warhammer Age of Sigmar core rules Designers’ Commentary.

That said, I am not confidently finding the section referenced in "Warhammer Age of Sigmar core rules Designers’ Commentary" that they are referring to, What I am seeing is specifics about move restrictions... 

Can someone point out the section regarding "How to deal with abilities that allow a unit to act as if it were a different phase " please and thank you?

I'd like to see about Kraith proc's in the Hero phase. (Shadow hammer, Orgy of Slaughter, Dance of Doom, etc. ) but I'm not confident I understand the core ruling the DoK Designer's Commentary references above to validate if Kraith can be proc'd or not.

[Mark Williams]

28 minutes ago, Jais said:

I see here in the Designer's Commentary about Blood Stalkers NOT gaining their Mortals wounds, even when it specifically says "as if it were the shooting phase."

Q: Blood Stalkers’ Heartseeker Bows inflict mortal wounds in the shooting phase. Morathi, High Oracle of Khaine lets units shoot ‘as if it were the shooting phase’. Do the Blood Stalkers’ shots inflict mortal wounds when she lets them shoot? A: No. How to deal with abilities that allow a unit to act as if it were a different phase is covered in the Warhammer Age of Sigmar core rules Designers’ Commentary.

That said, I am not confidently finding the section referenced in "Warhammer Age of Sigmar core rules Designers’ Commentary" that they are referring to, What I am seeing is specifics about move restrictions... 

Can someone point out the section regarding "How to deal with abilities that allow a unit to act as if it were a different phase " please and thank you?

I'd like to see about Kraith proc's in the Hero phase. (Shadow hammer, Orgy of Slaughter, Dance of Doom, etc. ) but I'm not confident I understand the core ruling the DoK Designer's Commentary references above to validate if Kraith can be proc'd or not.

I'll be blunt.

RaW - the Blood Stalkers should get their ability.

There's nothing in the Designer's Commentary describing how to handle abilities that go off in different phases, and even if there were, the wording of the Command Ability seems to account for that quite clearly.  I don't know what they were referring to.

[Bellfree]

11 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I'll be blunt.

RaW - the Blood Stalkers should get their ability.

There's nothing in the Designer's Commentary describing how to handle abilities that go off in different phases, and even if there were, the wording of the Command Ability seems to account for that quite clearly.  I don't know what they were referring to.

It was very clearly spelled out in the old FAQ that these abilities do not go off in other phases, however when GW moved the FAQ over into the 'designer commentary' they didn't address this particular issue(as far as I could find).

RAW states they can, FAQ precedent states they can't. Typical GW incompetence says the world may never know for sure.

[Mark Williams]

The fact that it doesn't greatly diminishes Morathi as a general, and the blood stalkers as a unit. On top of this, it was for characters and models that as far as I can tell did not need a nerf and were not overused or overpowered.

As I understand it, the logical reasoning has to do with the fact that this happens in the hero phase, and thus any other ability that would allow you to attack in the hero phase would have the same sort of restriction. My question is what are examples of similar command abilities in other armies, and are they held to the same restrictions? If so, then fine, if not then I think it's very unfair for daughters of khaine to be singled out like this.

[Beastlord Rakarth]

Hello All,

First post here.  I am a former Dark Elf WHFB player from the late 90s/early 2000s coming back after seeing the new DoK book combined with the release of AoS2.  Had a few questions - mixed gameplay and fluff -  if any experts would like to weigh in I'd appreciate that!

1) With the nerf to spellportal, is it even worth trying to keep Morathi in caster form?  Or, am I better off trying to instead get her into snake ASAP and buff her up to do as much combat damage as possible/survive the longest? (I'm talking "generally" here as in "building a list that facilitates snake"...so obviously in certain scenarios she's better in caster, I do know that much)

   1b) Is Morathi even worth it?  Or should I bring a 20 man Blood Sisters unit instead?

2) One tactic I've been thinking about (it's not rocket science) is Slaughter Queen on foot w/ doppelganger cloak, combined with a Heartrenders unit that drops down from reserves.  The idea is to charge with both units, but attack with the Heartrenders first.  My understanding of the rules is that the opponent is forced to attack the Khinerai when it's their turn - in other words they cannot "pass" on their attacks until after the SQ attacks.  Is that correct?

   2b) How does the attack sequence work if the above was Lifetakers?  What if I attack with the Lifetakers, roll the 4+ to move out of combat...then what?  Does the opponent lose their turn to attack, or do they simply wait until my SQ attacks and then can attack her?

3) Is Draichii Ganeth the only temple that could possibly be from another realm other than Ulgu?  When reading the battletome, I believe it referenced that this was the temple that began springing up in cities of Order, even in other realms.  The Kraith is another I suppose I could see, given their nomadic nature.  Anyone have an opinion on this?

4) Are any of the battalions worth it?  I plan on bringing all the units for the Slaughter Troupe, but it feels underwhelming since SoS seem to be able to retreat and still attack (by retreating to 3.1" away, since they can pile in 6"...something I learned on this very forum!) and Heartrenders will be dead as soon as anything touches them in combat.  130pts seems like a lot for what you get.  I like the idea of Cauldron Guard but I'm just not a fan of Lifetakers.

5) Has the CoB been fixed to have the WAR MACHINE keyword and I'm just not seeing it?  I feel like combo'ing A Thousand and One Dark Blessings + Suffocating Gravetide to give it cover is a decent play (2+ save against shooting) but the CoB is definitely a war machine and I'm not sure how that was missed.

6) Assuming you won't get the extra damage buff from Mindrazor, is Mindrazor just for the rend, or the Withering generally a better spell would you say?

[Lucentia]

I'll bite on a few of those:

1) With her doubled casting range Morathi didn't really need to use Spell Portal anyway, unless I'm missing some cool combo, I haven't delved particularly heavily into the realm spells yet to see how she might benefit from those.  I used to use her in caster form to pick out enemy support heroes, she is still the longest ranged damage dealer in the DoK book, if a little unreliable in that role, and moreso now with the weaker arcane bolt.  Segwaying into 1b) the main advantage of Morathi in my eye is in her flexibility, able to react to your opponent's list.  And also she is flat busted in the hero scoring/cumulative points missions.  She is a hefty points investment though, she is not an essential part of the tactical toolkit if you want to try something else.

3) My understanding is that the temple disciplines outlined in the battletome are more like sects, each of which have holding in multiple temples across the land, as with Draichi Ganeth having a presence in most of the free cities.  So whilst the first temples might be rooted in Ulgu you could still have Hagg Nar devotees operating from a satellite temple in another realm.

4) Battalions are mostly not worth it, Draichi Ganeth Slaughter Troupe can be fun, Witch Elves that can bounce between combats freely is pretty powerful, but you're stuck with a 'sub par' temple effect and the extra artefact is wasted with the forced Draichi Ganeth selection.  There's something to be said for Temple Nest if you want to run snake heavy, but like most of the battalions there are too many 'tax units' to make it very cost effective.

5) CoB (and Bloodwrack Shrine) do not have the war machine tag, for some reason, and nor are they monsters, so they can benefit from both cover and look out, sir.  I expected this to be errated at some point, but they seem to have dodged the recent FAQ at least.

6) The extra rend from Mindrazor is supremely useful even without the bonus damage, rend -1 on Witches means there's not much they can't chew through, and -2 on Blood Sisters is an option for dealing with the things that they can't manage against.  I prefer Mindrazor to Withering just in case you get caught against a particularly potent armour save anvil.

[Scythian]

Here’s a pic from the tournament I went to on Saturday. Snakes ? had 3 major victories, but another undefeated player had more victory points overall.  Played against Glotkin Nurgle, Warherd, and Deathrattle battalion undead.  

[Kramer]

8 hours ago, Scythian said:

Here’s a pic from the tournament I went to on Saturday. Snakes ? had 3 major victories, but another undefeated player had more victory points overall.  Played against Glotkin Nurgle, Warherd, and Deathrattle battalion undead.  

Any useful takeaways? Or was it so close in points it was a bit down to luck? 

[Rekmeister]

So, I've been thinking a lot about Khailbron and endless spells. 

I'm not at the 2000pt level yet, but I think I have worked out a list designed to drop a purple sun on turn 1 in the heart of the enemy. Here is the list:

Bloodwrack Shrine - General: Mistress of Illusions / Shadow Stone/Mindrazor

5 Blood Sisters

5 Blood Sisters

10 Doomfire Warlocks: Mindrazor

Purple Sun of Hysish

Emerald Lifeswarm/Hag Queen.

So if it isn't obvious already, the plan here is to teleport the Doomfire warlocks to 9" away from the enemy,  cast purple sun (adding 1 to the roll), deploy it within 6" and then move it 9", resulting in a 15" deep strike. Yes enemy deployment can counter this, but most armies can be relied to field  either a big unit for the sun to decimate, or lots of small ones clumped together. For different matchups I can teleport the Bloodwrack Shrine in to cast the sun and perform a bloodwrack stare.

Yes, this leaves 11 models to fight a 1000pt army, but if the plan is to nuke them in the first turn, I am confident that the insane damage output of the snake ladies will clean house against the enemy. I am debating between the swarms and the hag because Witchbrew is lit; but the lifeswarm can outright resurrect models, and with the sisters costing 140p for 5 I'm almost always the player who stands to gain the most from one unit being regenerated/returned by D3 per turn.

I chose Mindrazor as my spell for both units so that I can punish opponents with lower bravery/gain an edge over units whose bravery is being hurt by the sun.

I think this is a (somewhat) consistent army with a turn 1 play that has a 50/50 chance to nuke the enemy; thoughts?

[DantePQ]

Some pics from game I won against Blightknights Spamm Nurgle list. It was tough battle but Hag Queen with Gryph-feather Charm was awesome and it will be my go to item for Throne of Skulls Europe for my Slaughter Queen on Cauldron