AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[j0lt]

I'm not 100% sure how our points changes look in the grand scheme of things, but I am very happy there was some attempts to address our cost issues.

[cr0magz]

Gunhauler down to 130, frigate to 200 and ironclad to 380. Hopefully makes more boats more viable!! 

[mikethefish]

Ironclad still seems a tad high, but the Frigate is competitively costed.  I like the Gunhauler cost as well, though I want to test it out.

My Escort Wing list just gained a TRUCKLOAD of extra points, that's for sure.

[Iron Fist]

1 hour ago, mikethefish said:

Ironclad still seems a tad high, but the Frigate is competitively costed.  I like the Gunhauler cost as well, though I want to test it out.

My Escort Wing list just gained a TRUCKLOAD of extra points, that's for sure.

What's your Escort Wing list?

[Barkanaut]

Even at those costs I don’t think any of them are worth it. The problem is their absolute anemic firepower and huge size meaning they can get shot from everywhere. The boats need a complete rework and overhaul to make them viable. They could cost the Frigate at 140 and while great who is going to paint and haul around a horde army of boats? KO models are large, awkward, and tons of fiddle bits. We simply can’t be a horde army and we clearly weren’t designed to be. I have to hold out hope for a 2.0 ko overhaul because this is still an army with huge issues and it feels like GW continues to ignore us for years and years I’m about ready to quit and sell them off lol. 

[mikethefish]

Apologies for my bluntness, but 140 pts for the Frigate is completely absurd.

[Reuben Parker]

Talking escort wing my list currently has gone down 130 and they have said that thunderers and sky wardens are also going down (haven’t seen leaked points on those though) so min will be another 50 points so should mean I can probably fit in 10 more thunderers as I was bit under already.

 

doesnt sound like much but it will definitely make a difference. Especially as the list doesn’t play to table by just to cripple opponents major hitters then play objectives. 

I think to fix boats make them a flat 5 damage for cannons only 1.5 more than the average on the d6 but gets away from the times you roll super low and overall brings their damage output up without it being outrageous and makes them great small hero snipers. 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Reuben Parker
Math!

[mmimzie]

I feel like the thunder's being 90pts with cheaper friget/ironclad make just better KO list over all.  The Thunders with only rifles already compete with skyhook for damage, if you compare only the hooks to the rifles the rifles do a tiny bit more damage (like 5-10%) this is when both are buffed with a chemist. 

More over the thunders can be more impressive as the chemist buff is a less than 50% damage increase vs the skyhooks geting a 100% boost, meaning it might be worth just taking more thunders in some cases (depending on how pts work out for fitting stuff in your list). Where as the arkanauts don't even have that option, as it khemist+them or nothing. 

[Iron Fist]

With new points:

 

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords

Skyport: Barak-Mhornar

Leaders
Aetheric Navigator (80)
- General
Aether-Khemist (140)
Aether-Khemist (140)

Battleline
30 x Arkanaut Company (360)
- 9x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3x Light Skyhooks

Units
14 x Grundstok Thunderers (270)
- 14x Aethershot Rifles

War Machines
Arkanaut Frigate (200)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon
Arkanaut Frigate (200)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon
Arkanaut Frigate (200)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon

Battalions
Iron Sky Squadron (130)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121

 

look like pretty sexy list i think!
 

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Iron Fist said:

With new points:

 

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords

Skyport: Barak-Mhornar

Leaders
Aetheric Navigator (80)
- General
Aether-Khemist (140)
Aether-Khemist (140)

Battleline
30 x Arkanaut Company (360)
- 9x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3x Light Skyhooks

Units
14 x Grundstok Thunderers (270)
- 14x Aethershot Rifles

War Machines
Arkanaut Frigate (200)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon
Arkanaut Frigate (200)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon
Arkanaut Frigate (200)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon

Battalions
Iron Sky Squadron (130)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121

 

look like pretty sexy list i think!
 

I'd find space for a lord ordinator i think.

[Iron Fist]

Mmmmhhhh 3 frigates near of my general with Mornar = Reroll Hit :) don't need Ordinator i think

[Eocosa]

In regards to helping boost ships usefulness, I know their firepower is pretty low (really like the damage of the cannons being a flat value), but could a boost in tankiness increase their value?

Some Tzeentch units that fly get a +2 modifier (not a 2+ base save) to their save while in combat with units that cannot fly. Do you think something like this could help? This would do a pretty good job making our ships a bit more survivable in combat against most units while still having some vulnerabilities. 

A major issue with our list building currently seems that we don’t have any real damage sponges, which is fine if we are supposed to be a glass cannon, but it is just unfortunate that often when another unit is considered it just never compares to “more skyhooks”.

[mikethefish]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

I'd find space for a lord ordinator i think.

As Iron Fist mentioned, it's really not necessary in Mhornar.  You are just turning that list from one drop, to two drops without much return.

[Ointagru]

59 minutes ago, Eocosa said:

In regards to helping boost ships usefulness, I know their firepower is pretty low (really like the damage of the cannons being a flat value), but could a boost in tankiness increase their value?

Some Tzeentch units that fly get a +2 modifier (not a 2+ base save) to their save while in combat with units that cannot fly. Do you think something like this could help? This would do a pretty good job making our ships a bit more survivable in combat against most units while still having some vulnerabilities. 

A major issue with our list building currently seems that we don’t have any real damage sponges, which is fine if we are supposed to be a glass cannon, but it is just unfortunate that often when another unit is considered it just never compares to “more skyhooks”.

The best and the most lore-friendly way to increase usefulness of our ships would be to allow them to be used as garrisons by Kharadron infantry. 

Spoiler

From core rules:

"Units that garrison a terrain feature are removed from the battlefield and are assumed to be ‘inside’ the terrain feature. Units must treat a terrain
feature garrisoned by the enemy as if it were an enemy model.

The range and visibility to or from a garrisoning unit is determined to or from the terrain feature instead.
A garrisoning model can attack and be attacked, cast or unbind spells, and use abilities, but cannot move. A garrisoning unit counts as being in cover if it is attacked. In addition, subtract 1 from the hit rolls of attacks made against a garrisoning unit." 

 

[5kaven5lave]

Does anyone have any ideas / advice on speed painting / using contrast to paint up KO? Thinking about getting in to them. 

Cheers. 

[Reuben Parker]

12 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Does anyone have any ideas / advice on speed painting / using contrast to paint up KO? Thinking about getting in to them. 

Cheers. 

Mine I’m just spraying gold then silver weapons. Probably purple or red cloth then some blue energy glow. 

With the new paints don’t really need to worry about shade / highlights. 

[WatcherintheWater]

Three lists I'm really interested in trying out with the new points (assuming the leaks are correct). Dropping the points for Skywardens, Khemists, and all the boats is awesome!

Barak Urbaz Gunline

• 2 Khemists
• 2x10 & 1x40 Arkanauts
• 9 Skywardens
• 9 Endrinriggers
• 40 Dwarf Warriors

Barak Zilfin Balloon Army

• 2 Khemists
• 1 Frigate
• 3x10 Arkanauts
• 1x12 & 1x9 Endrinriggers
• 9 Skywardens

Barak Zilfin Hybrid Army

• 2 Khemists
• 1 Frigate
• 2x10 & 1x40 Arkanauts
• 40 Dwarf Warriors
• 12 Endrinriggers

[Kramer]

14 minutes ago, WatcherintheWater said:

Three lists I'm really interested in trying out with the new points (assuming the leaks are correct). Dropping the points for Skywardens, Khemists, and all the boats is awesome!

Barak Urbaz Gunline

• 2 Khemists
• 2x10 & 1x40 Arkanauts
• 9 Skywardens
• 9 Endrinriggers
• 40 Dwarf Warriors

Barak Zilfin Balloon Army

• 2 Khemists
• 1 Frigate
• 3x10 Arkanauts
• 1x12 & 1x9 Endrinriggers
• 9 Skywardens

Barak Zilfin Hybrid Army

• 2 Khemists
• 1 Frigate
• 2x10 & 1x40 Arkanauts
• 40 Dwarf Warriors
• 12 Endrinriggers

Did you take the dwarf warrior point raise into account? 

Personally I would go hybrid from these three options. 

[WatcherintheWater]

47 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Did you take the dwarf warrior point raise into account? 

Yeah. Still a good value for that many bodies I think. Keeps your Arkanauts alive a little longer and can help control objectives early in the game. 

If you wanted to paint up 90 arkanauts you could try to go for another unit of 40 instead of the warriors, but I can’t quite find the points for it.

[Cauthon]

Ahoy!

 

Doing the obligatory check in with a new gh coming out. My skydorfs have been firmly shelfed but I’d love reasons to feel like they can be at least casually competitive. 

 

I just dont see it getting done with points decreases. Not modest ones like we are getting. 

 

How cheap does our stuff need to get over the hurdles of;

 

1. Being a shooting army that is just not good at shooting. (Give me back damage 3 pls)

 

1B. They totally ruined the Thunderer’s warscroll. Used to be our main unit of offensive output that you built lists around and now it’s just a mess. Used to be a super diverse unit that opened up tactical options. 

 

I feel they should have made the rifles wound on 3+ after they decided you couldn’t take all of whichever gun you actually wanted after they said you could / caugh, anyway..

 

2. Ships just arnt that useful. Shooting is very lackluster, super swingy and not even good on the average.

 

2B. You can transport units but the only unit we have worth using is the endrinrigger and if you’re embarked, you arnt getting any use out of the endrinriggers offense.  

 

2C. Same with any of our hero’s abilities. It’s pretty cool you can spec anti magic but having to have your navigator be on the ground to be able to make his magic happen, it makes it tough when it should be thematic and awesome. 

 

3. No endless spells, even the generic ones. No magic at all, or even a prayer system to make up for it. 

 

3B. You can spec your whole army into shutting down magic, you might get pretty good at it but there is what I believe  is called opportunity cost, where you lose your re-rolls or your ability to deep strike from not taking the rules you would otherwise choose.

 

So even if you DO go anti magic, spend all the points, opportunity cost, boots on the ground, you don’t get a single bit of offense out of it. You can HOPEFULLY stop something. If you go anti magic with any other army, odds are youre at least getting casters (wizards or priests)out of it at the same time. 

 

So yeah, 140 points for a frigate does sound rediculous, but that is the only type of points decreases that would move the needle imo to make us even just casually competitive. 

 

Do these minor points decreases really mean much? Say you can buy an extra frigate now, it still only hits on a4+ and you better roll hot on your damage d6!

 

We still don’t have a badass melee unit to transport  (pls don’t say arkonaughts) with the boat in the first place. 

 

The problem isn’t cost, it’s mehanics.

 

Skywardens are cheaper but they are straight garbage compared to endrinriggers. Even if they were 60 points for 3 dudes, is it going to make their air mine thing hit on anything better than a 6? So it’s garbage even at a cheap price until we get a new book with fixed mechanics. 

 

I would LOVE to be wrong but I think it’s pretty obvious we need an actual new book or they need to seriously rethink some of these faq nerfs. 

 

Those garrison rules are legit, something like that could go like 90% of the way to fixing Kharadron, that and maybe endless “spells” and a prayer system ala Khorne. Boom, solid army, in theory.

 

You just don’t get there with modest points reductions  

 

Hope you guys can make it work!! Would love to hear how wrong I am!! Sorry for anything misremembered. 

[Reuben Parker]

It’s not minor reductions to be fair. For any balanced style lists your looking at close to 160 to 200 points extra.

Plus they are wanting to rein in the more over powered armies DoK between wychs, heart renders and hags will lose close to 200 on a typical list. 

We will see what the “hot fix” for the new books missed by GHB brings. 

Thunderers in 5s with rifles are already quite efficient and with lower points are very pallitable. Riggers buffed by a khemist are an amazing Melee unit. 

Are KO going to be top tier without a new book.... probably not but I do feel they will be able to compete. 

Also saying KO are a bad shooting army is just wrong. 9 skyhooks +khemist + re rolls. Riggers shoot amazingly and sky wardens with full gun load outs are very good. Plus rifle thunderers do great damage to points ratio. 

The boats are not the armies main shooting units and yes the cannons need buffing  and should be flat damage but even without that I think we will see KO do mixed ships and troops lists that can do ok. 

[Cauthon]

The riggers are an amazing unit. I have a 12 man melee unit and a 12 man shooting unit. The problem with them is they are 20 points a wound and not all that tough. 

 

The max unit of arkonaughts with skyhooks and a khemist can do pretty good damage but that’s a dang lot of points and you still need to finish filling out your battle line. 

 

Id rather use khemist to buff the drill cannons in my maxed unit of ranged endrinriggers. 

Of course the ships arnt the main source of damage, but what are they really good for besides clown car deepstrike?

charge blockers? 200 points is cheap but how exactly is it making its points back? (Besides clown car)

i wish strolling up to an objective with a load of arkonaughts was a viable strategy but that’s a lot of points to get 10 wounds of 5+ on a hopefully uncontested objective. 

So if the ships not really good at shooting, and it’s not really worth it to transport anything besides endrinriggers, what’s really the point?

If your answer to why kharadron arnt that bad is because you can take a max block of arkonaughts so you can double 12 skyhook shots and endrinriggers are good too...

 

i dont think that’s a good argument to prove our mechanics arnt busted. 

[Spears]

18 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Does anyone have any ideas / advice on speed painting / using contrast to paint up KO? Thinking about getting in to them. 

Cheers. 

Spray silver then hit them with contrast. The flesh tones over silver make a nice bronze and the yellows do a super bright gold.

[Funstock Funhauler]

I’m waiting patiently for someone to paint an entire ironclad with contrast.

[5kaven5lave]

I’ll have a go!!

If anyone in the know has any thoughts on this I’d be very grateful. Will a Khemist, 14 Thunderers and the Endrinriggers be too big a deep strike in the Frigate to work properly? The Navigator is pure Rule of Cool by the way, think he’s a dude. 

Cheers!!

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords

Skyport: Barak-Zilfin

Leaders
Aetheric Navigator (80)
- General
Aether-Khemist (160)
Aether-Khemist (160)

Battleline
30 x Arkanaut Company (360)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)

Units
12 x Endrinriggers (480)
15 x Grundstok Thunderers(300)
5 x Grundstok Thunderers(100)

War Machines
Arkanaut Frigate (240)

Total: 2120 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123