AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Arkanaut Admiral]

58 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

I mean I don't really think we need any more models - as cool as they might be.  Of course, I have tons of ideas that I'd love to see as options, but our roster seems fine, currently.

Clearly we need more Battle Line options, but that can be solved by taking current units and making them either full or conditional Battle Line.  Something to the effect of "if you take an Admiral in your army, then Sky Wardens may be taken as Battle Line units" or something similar.  

So while I would like to see additional models, we could pretty easily make do with the models we already have.  Just give us a Tome, terrain and Endless Spells and we would probably be fine. 

What we really need is something like the Fyreslayers - where literally every single War Scroll got a change of some degree.  Let our models function like they are supposed to do in the fluff.  That's what we need.

Absolutely.  skywardens could become battleline if you have the KO allegiance, giving them a purpose in comparison to Endrinriggers.  Possibly Thunderers too, although I’d worry about battleline thunderers stepping on the toes of arkanauts.

We really just need the Fyreslayer treatment.  Every scroll looked at again, and ‘endless weather’ and a terrain feature.

I have an idea for the terrain feature btw...skymine fields.  Comes in sets of 3 like Gnawholes.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Ointagru said:

It has been FAQ'ed - instead of giving one more d6,  now it allows you to attempt to unbind one extra spell.

Thanks! Time to double check all the post it’s then😂 

[cadmachine]

On the topic of possible changes, they have apparently said multiple times that all armies going forward will be forced into what is available in their boxes, like they did with Stormfiends so Arko's will go to having only one of each weapon if they do the same, my belief is that they will change the unit drastically in some way to compensate or the book as a whole.

@Kramer

Sadly I can't change the list, but I would agree those changes would be great!

Yep I do get a second artefact but its a variable campaign artefact the TO generates at the start of the games.

The Gunhaulers are my one acquiescence to the "objective" style play, giving me mobility to cap/contest or pressure objectives, not to mention a descent cannon shooting round can do some real damage.

@FractalRain

Thanks alot for your reply precisely the type of thing I was thinking of, I'm not so familiar with FEC, I've been reading the book but its hard to mentally grasp something until it actually happens.

 

[Kramer]

23 minutes ago, cadmachine said:

 

On the topic of possible changes, they have apparently said multiple times that all armies going forward will be forced into what is available in their boxe

 

Yeah, I’ve seen it lots of times but never when I asked for a source I have been pointed to one. So we’ll see, personally think it’s likely as well.

24 minutes ago, cadmachine said:

dly I can't change the list, but I would agree those changes would be great!

 Yep I do get a second artefact but its a variable campaign artefact the TO generates at the start of the games.

The Gunhaulers are my one acquiescence to the "objective" style play, giving me mobility to cap/contest or pressure objectives, not to mention a descent cannon shooting round can do some real damage.

Fair points 😁

[mikethefish]

1 hour ago, cadmachine said:

On the topic of possible changes, they have apparently said multiple times that all armies going forward will be forced into what is available in their boxes, like they did with Stormfiends so Arko's will go to having only one of each weapon if they do the same, my belief is that they will change the unit drastically in some way to compensate or the book as a whole.

@Kramer

Actually they have never said this.  People just assume they have, because of kits like Storm Fiends.

Personally I think it is unlikely that Arks will change like this.  We've been using them for a couple of years, and it's not like they are prone to abuse like Storm Fiends were

[mikethefish]

3 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

 

I have an idea for the terrain feature btw...skymine fields.  Comes in sets of 3 like Gnawholes.

That's a pretty cool idea, but I like mine better.

The fluff mentions floating armored light houses to protect trade routes.  I think we get one of these things that can light up an enemy with it's spot light, giving us a shooting bonus of some kind.  Sort of an AoS version of a Tau marker light.

This way we could fix our accuracy issue without changing many to-hit rolls.  Been thinking of this a lot, lol

Edited April 19, 2019 by mikethefish

[cadmachine]

3 hours ago, mikethefish said:

Actually they have never said this.  People just assume they have, because of kits like Storm Fiends.

Personally I think it is unlikely that Arks will change like this.  We've been using them for a couple of years, and it's not like they are prone to abuse like Storm Fiends were

Actually, they have.

Around the 7 minute mark he talks about from Beasts of Chaos forward they have implemented "whats in the box" and its something he says that is very important to him.
Its a dangerous game to say GW have never said something when they say so much.

[mikethefish]

2 hours ago, cadmachine said:

Actually, they have.

---cut---

Around the 7 minute mark he talks about from Beasts of Chaos forward they have implemented "whats in the box" and its something he says that is very important to him.
Its a dangerous game to say GW have never said something when they say so much.

Yeah...actually no they haven't.  He is specifically talking about banner bearers and musicians at that point, in a effort to stop people running units of nothing but guys with banners strapped to their backs.  It's a dangerous game to quote people when you are getting the quotes wrong.

But hey - and I say this with no malice or snark - if you have other sources, let me know.

Edited April 20, 2019 by mikethefish

[cadmachine]

"For example you can see from Beast of Chaos onwards on a warscroll the banner bearer and the musician will be limited to the number you get in the box so for instance, the Ungor raiders can have one musician and one banner bearer and thats because for me I didn't want to have to find extra banners and extra horns and strap them on every one of my models"

He says the word example and the phrase "for instance" a number of times throughout, using this as an example and the above quote is very clearly about what is in the box, becoming the norm, which they have done since Beasts of Chaos because its silly and frustrating, as he notes to have to find items that arent in the box to equip a unit the way the game recommends.

I think the intention of his comment was very clear, not sure how else to read it.

Ill be clear Im a KO player and I dont want this change unless the rest of the units rules or the army book compensates for the loss of damage.

People have quoted another source and Ive asked for that article but waiting for the person to find it.

 

[Kramer]

6 hours ago, cadmachine said:

e says the word example and the phrase "for instance" a number of times throughout, using this as an example and the above quote is very clearly about what is in the box, becoming the norm, which they have done since Beasts of Chaos because its silly and frustrating, as he notes to have to find items that arent in the box to equip a unit the way the game recommends.

I think the intention of his comment was very clear, not sure how else to read it.

I haven’t listened to the fragment again, so I’ll assume your quote is correct. But reading it, i can easily see how you interpret it both ways. 

I for one expect it to happen so yeah I read the same intention of it in his comment ‘for instance.’

but that’s just my bias as I see something that ‘confirms’ my suspicion  it could easily be meant in another way and even more likely in my mind that will  not be decided until they start working on KO2.0 so if he has any actual knowledge that he is referring to is doubtful in my mind  

 

[ledha]

16 hours ago, mikethefish said:

Actually they have never said this.  People just assume they have, because of kits like Storm Fiends.

Personally I think it is unlikely that Arks will change like this.  We've been using them for a couple of years, and it's not like they are prone to abuse like Storm Fiends were

or because of kits like thunderers ?

The tears of people molding and abusing of 60 mortars and being surprised that GW change the warscroll to prevent it was hilarious

Edited April 20, 2019 by ledha

[Furuzzolo]

I think that whatever is coming is better than our actual book. 

I like the 12x shooting light skyhook, we all like powerful things...is it good for the faction to have to buy 9 boxes of arkanaut to field a competitive battleline? Dunno. Do I like to have to custombuild my weapon or buy then on ebay? ...

[mikethefish]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

or because of kits like thunderers ?

The tears of people molding and abusing of 60 mortars and being surprised that GW change the warscroll to prevent it was hilarious

Yes exactly.  Quite frankly, if GW was going to restrict weapon options on Arkanauts, they would simply have done so when they altered the Thunderer war scroll.

[Beliman]

If they go for the same thunderers route (what you have in the box, is the maximum loadout that you will be using), then I hope to see some diferent rules to play. I'm a bit bored to rolling for 3-4 diferent weapons for the same unite (it's a waste of time).

I hope to see something diferent. For example, special weapons could give some type of buffs to the whole unite:

-Skypikes could give us +1 to hit to melee weapons

-Skyhooks could give some rend to ranged weapons (-1).

-Aethermatic volleyguns maybe could give some range (6" maybe) or +1atk .

Aetheric augmentation could double the buff itself (-2 rend or 24" range pistols could be scary if you have in mind that it's a battleline unit).

Edited April 20, 2019 by Beliman

[DavionStar]

27 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

Yes exactly.  Quite frankly, if GW was going to restrict weapon options on Arkanauts, they would simply have done so when they altered the Thunderer war scroll.

This is a pretty good point, to be honest. Then again, that was more an exploit fix, of sorts, than an army re-balancing. As of right now, we just can't be sure what they're planning. It could go one way or the other. That said, getting 3 of a given weapon type isn't overly difficult given that you need 3 boxes of Arkanauts for a 2k battleline as it is, so you're gonna get a 3 set of each special weapon.

That said I also have to agree with Beliman. Having the 'weapon combos' of the Thunderers for the Arkanauts as well? You're far more likely going to be adding way more Arkanauts than Thunderers in your army, so it'd just add a huge amount of extra rolls. I hope they leave that gimmick to Thunderers alone. I think it's neat, but overdoing it may not be the best.

[mikethefish]

You can take up to five Great Maces (or whatever they are called) in a unit of 10 Sequitors, and yet the boxed kit only comes with four.  And this is in Stormcasts - the poster boys of the game, with very up-to-date rules.

There ARE modern kits (modern as in having recent rules) with War Scrolls that don't match the boxed kits.  It happens.

And as Davion just said - GW knows that players are going to purchase multiples of the Arkanauts kit.  Players are going to have options available to them.  The odds are far more in favor of keeping the special weapon rules as they are. 

In the case of Thunderers and Storm Fiends, their weapon options were massive - with what ..5-6 weapon options per kit?  Of course GW had to step in.  Maxing out one particular weapon was both expensive to the wallet, and abusive for the game.  The situation is far different for Arks.

There is very little incentive for GW to alter the scroll in that way.  Which is a good thing.

Edited April 20, 2019 by mikethefish

[Eocosa]

For our “endless spell” (endless science as we have been calling it), I was talking with some friends and one came up with an idea I thought was pretty unique to KO while still falling into the mold they have been using.

Instead of prayers, spells, etc., let us trust to science and firepower with torpedos/munitions. Allow a skyvessel (perhaps frigates and ironclads only if they feel gunhaulers were too small, although I think this could give them an additional reason to try and include them as they are more “disposable”) to attempt to load and fire one of the types of torpedos/munitions  you paid for in the hero phase the same was as the prayers are cast. If you don’t make the proper roll it could be because it got jammed or wasn’t loaded fast enough for the lore reasoning.

One example could be essentially a single large torpedo with a  move mechanic like the aethervoid pendulum, and when it hits a target it deals damage and is removed. 

Another could be a cluster bomb perhaps with a  more anti horde focus.

For zone denial there could be “field” (and oval base) if skymines dropped in base contact from the ship that then “drifts” D6 inches to land and any unit moving through it has the chance of taking mortal wounds

I am sure there are many more clever  ideas as well!

This would give us some unique “spells”, that fit into the lore, while also giving sky vessels another role in our army.

[mikethefish]

If we have the traditional three endless spells, to work with, and if (in a hypothetical universe) I were a GW game designer, I would have one of three broad categories

One effect that was a destructive weather phenomena (storm, cyclone, etc)

One effect that was some sort of aerial predator of some kind (like the megalofins described in the fluff

One final effect that was technology-based in some way.  Like the aerial mine field that Ecosta just described, or perhaps some sort of buffing mechanic.  Perhaps an aether-refueling station that would make our ships faster?  Something along those lines.

[silverstu]

Have any of you looked at the AoS scrolls for Thundrik's Profiteers ? All the weapons have an additional attack.. I wonder if this is a hint of what might come in a new Tome?

[Kramer]

3 minutes ago, silverstu said:

Have any of you looked at the AoS scrolls for Thundrik's Profiteers ? All the weapons have an additional attack.. I wonder if this is a hint of what might come in a new Tome?

I mostly noticed they took the endrinriggers picture for the khemist entry 😂

[cadmachine]

Both the Thunderers rework and the Stormcast book were published before Beasts of Chaos and implementation of the system he mentions so both are moot examples.

Edit: The Sequitor box does come with 5 Greatmaces, 4 standard and 2 more, 1 for a prime of each sex.

The incentive to change the warscroll is that Arkonauts are largely considered to be undercosted and overpowered for their roll and price and as such pop up in many many order faction and mixed order lists.

As a KO player to win, I feel I rely way too heavily on the performance of my battleline that are incredibly fragile, I win or lose games based on them entirely, the rest of the book is borderline worthless in terms of damage or other battlefield roles, my argument is that I believe its clear they will change Arkanauts but they will redress the unit and the book to make everything better so I'll take the trade.

Edited April 20, 2019 by cadmachine

[mikethefish]

7 hours ago, cadmachine said:

The incentive to change the warscroll is that Arkonauts are largely considered to be undercosted and overpowered for their roll and price and as such pop up in many many order faction and mixed order lists.

 

Disagree with this assessment

There is a difference between a unit being undercosted, and being the only unit in the entire book that actually performs the function that it was intended to perform (with the sole exception of maybe Endrinriggers).  Arkanauts fall into the latter category.

The reason why they get taken as allies, etc, is because they ARE correctly costed, and adequately perform their job on various soup lists

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by mikethefish

[cadmachine]

35 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

Disagree with this assessment

There is a difference between a unit being undercosted, and being the only unit in the entire book that actually performs the function that it was intended to perform (with the sole exception of maybe Endrinriggers). 

 

Those things are not mutually exclusive.

But there are no other ranged units in the game that can put out even close to as much damage as a 10 squad of Arkanauts and be that cheap, hence the reason they are so popular.

Judicators are battleline and can do 5 shots, one of which is a possible D6 damage but they are 160 points.
Darkshards 16 inches 2 shots and hitting on 5s and wounding on 4s with no speciality weapons at all and they are 100!
Vs every model in an Arko company getting 2 shots minimum hitting and wounding on 4s with a 12 inch range, then 3 of them get a 24 in range can opener for 120 not to mention their offensive profile is almost as good as the Judicators, they would almost certainly beat every other ranged unit I can think of in melee also.

They also contribute to the "gunline" style of play which GW have specifically said they are trying to discourage, which infuriates me as a KO player because every single model I own shoots.

Am I supposed to tool out my Arko's with Skypikes and cripple my damage output?

[IneptusAstartes]

On 4/19/2019 at 7:02 PM, mikethefish said:

What we really need is something like the Fyreslayers - where literally every single War Scroll got a change of some degree.  Let our models function like they are supposed to do in the fluff.  That's what we need.

Starting with making the HUGE FLYING IRON SHIP a bit more survivable. At least about on par with the HUGE FLYING SEA TURTLE.

Edited April 21, 2019 by IneptusAstartes

[Kramer]

17 hours ago, cadmachine said:

The incentive to change the warscroll is that Arkonauts are largely considered to be undercosted and overpowered for their roll and price and as such pop up in many many order faction and mixed order lists.

Where are you getting the largely considered undercosted? Not saying you are wrong per say. But I know nobody, nor read on TGA, anything remotely close to complaints that arkanauts are undercosted or overpowered. 

Now that I think about it I don’t even see them often in mixed order lists. 🤔 

8 hours ago, cadmachine said:

ut there are no other ranged units in the game that can put out even close to as much damage as a 10 squad of Arkanauts and be that cheap, hence the reason they are so popular

I think they are in a weird spot with their long and close range as to compare them. 

If talking long range a very much would prefer a warplock jezzail squad. But you have no number, etc etc. But for the long range damage. Yes I would prefer jezzails for the 20pts more. 

Short range you definitely have a point. Easily buffed, 2 shots a model and can do some follow up in melee. That’s hard to find. I could argue warpfire throwers but that’s so situational as not to be very relevant. 

but that’s kind of my point. They are not overpowered in my mind. When spammed they seem great but even then they are a hard unit to compare and conclude they are overpowered.