OCD Nightmare Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Long time lurker, first time poster. As a fellow Kharadron Admiral I'd like to just to provide words of hope to those just beginning their tour of duty in the glorious Aether-Fleets. As a long time player of GW games, in pretty competitive environments, I was, at first, very skeptical of this armies competitive viability. After some substantial theorycraft, and playtesting, let me assure new KO players that this Faction is indeed viable. Very much so. This army *currently* has the tools it needs to win 4 games, even 5 games (with the right match up luck) in top tourneys. However, this army is not very beginner friendly, in fact quite the opposite. It has only a couple really solid builds, and each requires thoughtful placement, movement, and target prioritization. As opposed to say netlisty DoK, Khorne, and LoN lists. So in short, do not listen to the doubters, continue to plug away at our awesome ships and Balloon Boys, take your lumps - and you will absolutely take your lumps until you get a good grasp of what you need to be doing. CanCon was just the tip of the iceberg, and GHB2019 is likely to only inprove our lot. You will be mowing armies down in no time. Goodluck! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j0lt Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 So I was lucky enough to win a Start Collecting Box for KO in a local raffle, so my question would be....are there any units in the battletome (which I'm currently reading) that are absolutely dreadful and should be avoided? Otherwise I need to pickup some battleline units and go from there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzgurbel Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Thunderes buffed by a Khemist. A uni of 10 (200) points will make 32 shoots at 18" hitting at 3+, wounding on 4+, rend -1 damage 1, wich is something pretty. If you grant another buffs from Sky Ports (+1 to hit against flying units, Oportunistic Privateer, Barak Thryng's Grudge...), they become something to really look at. And, presonally, the SC box is a good start to build a Grundstok Escort Wing, a battalion I really like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Wastelands Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) Just to clarify, @j0lt‘s question was what to avoid, @Luzgurbel‘s answer was what to include! 😁Don’t avoid rifle thunderers buffed by a khemist, they’re really good. As for what to avoid, it’s more certain expectations to avoid than certain units. Don’t expect your big metal gunships to be particularly tanky or shooty, for example. While they can do both of these things a bit, their roles are more subtle, and you have to look elsewhere for your “big guns”, in my experience. I like ironclads, but I like them for their transport capacity as much as anything else 😆 On the whole though, nothing is terrible, and everything has its uses. Edited February 23, 2019 by Baron Wastelands 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzgurbel Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Oh yes, I misunderstood the question haha. @Baron Wastelands answer is perfect 👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzgurbel Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Btw, I suggest this link to be red: https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/kharadron-overlords-skyhooks-for-days/ Alex Krohn managed to win 5 games with this list in the CanCon, something really to be proud of, and this is a very recommendable reading! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCD Nightmare Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 4 hours ago, j0lt said: So I was lucky enough to win a Start Collecting Box for KO in a local raffle, so my question would be....are there any units in the battletome (which I'm currently reading) that are absolutely dreadful and should be avoided? Otherwise I need to pickup some battleline units and go from there! Hey there. Your mileage may vary, and we could get into the Mathhammer weeds if you really would like, but as a general rule of thumb I'd avoid the following: Grundstok Gunhaulers: The Warscroll needs some work for sure. They do okay, but for their points cost are just not very cost effective at all. If they could be BL, or involved in better Battalion choices, maybe. But until then I'd avoid in any competitive list. Aether-Navigators: They need to be given some sort of support/prayer-like ability - or a dispell scroll like option. Until then, 80 points for essentially a dispel roll in the hero phase? Meh. Avoid. Endrinmaster: He is okay. But for his point cost you could grab more Arkanauts with 3 more Skyhooks. Skywardens: They are solid, but it remains to be seen why anyone would really take them over Endrinriggers. That being said, they do come in the SC box, and Battleforce. So, they are totally viable and readily available. Ironclad: We all LOVE the model, I know. And the Warscroll is pretty good. The problem? 420 points is just silly for only a 4+ Save (even with 18 Wounds). Explain to me again why a flying metal fortress has a 4+ and the Dragon Turtle has a 3+? I expect these will be looked at hard for GHB2019 revision. All said, still not a terrible choice, just not optimal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Wastelands Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, OCD Nightmare said: Hey there. Your mileage may vary, and we could get into the Mathhammer weeds if you really would like, but as a general rule of thumb I'd avoid the following: Grundstok Gunhaulers: The Warscroll needs some work for sure. They do okay, but for their points cost are just not very cost effective at all. If they could be BL, or involved in better Battalion choices, maybe. But until then I'd avoid in any competitive list. Aether-Navigators: They need to be given some sort of support/prayer-like ability - or a dispell scroll like option. Until then, 80 points for essentially a dispel roll in the hero phase? Meh. Avoid. Endrinmaster: He is okay. But for his point cost you could grab more Arkanauts with 3 more Skyhooks. Skywardens: They are solid, but it remains to be seen why anyone would really take them over Endrinriggers. That being said, they do come in the SC box, and Battleforce. So, they are totally viable and readily available. Ironclad: We all LOVE the model, I know. And the Warscroll is pretty good. The problem? 420 points is just silly for only a 4+ Save (even with 18 Wounds). Explain to me again why a flying metal fortress has a 4+ and the Dragon Turtle has a 3+? I expect these will be looked at hard for GHB2019 revision. All said, still not a terrible choice, just not optimal. That’s all good advice. None of these units are horrible, just that there are slightly better options in each case (well, except maybe the gunhauler. It’s hard to know what to say about the gunhauler - it just isn’t what it wants to be). Instead of a navigator, take an allied caster. Instead of an endrinmaster, take an admiral. Or better yet take Khemists. Instead of Skywardens, take endrinriggers. And instead of ironclads ... well, I do still like ironclads, but they are very expensive. Arguably a frigate does much the same job, but cheaper. An ironclad can hold its own a bit more, which is what makes it tempting over the other two ships (and I mostly always run at least one, because IRONCLAD), but probably drains points unnecessarily to do so. And you can add Gunhaulers as orbiting shields for ironclads ... but suddenly you’ve got no points for troops to actually do the work. On a side note, the navigator’s ability to halve flying movement might just look a bit better with the increasing amount of flying around. Good anti-squig, anti-nighthaunt, anti-flayers, etc. Anyone tried running him recently? Edited February 24, 2019 by Baron Wastelands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzgurbel Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Why an Admiral over an Endrimaster? I see the warscroll for both and are horrible, but the Master can deal much more damage in melee than the Admiral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamar Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 8 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said: On a side note, the navigator’s ability to halve flying movement might just look a bit better with the increasing amount of flying around. Good anti-squig, anti-nighthaunt, anti-flayers, etc. Anyone tried running him recently? I used him in my last game against night haunt and the storm ability really messed with my opponent. I lost the game mind you, but the navigator did muck up his plans a bit, and kept a couple of units out of combat for longer. The movement boost he gives to the airships is also decent, especially if you have the prosecute wars with all haste trait, or an embarked admiral to make the most of the run reroll without losing a round of shooting. It’s just odd his abilities feel so restrained when he has no offensive capabilities at all. 12 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said: Why an Admiral over an Endrimaster? I see the warscroll for both and are horrible, but the Master can deal much more damage in melee than the Admiral. The battleshock immunity bubble is good, especially if you have several large units of Arkanauts, and he’s reasonably tough. Plus being able to run and shoot an ironclad whilst he’s embarked is pretty helpful as well. I agree an endrinmaster is probably a bit better overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Wastelands Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 52 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said: Why an Admiral over an Endrimaster? I see the warscroll for both and are horrible, but the Master can deal much more damage in melee than the Admiral. See my post on page 34 of this thread for the numbers, but basically the admiral will consistently outdamage the endrinmaster on average. The key word in your statement is can. The endrinmaster is capable of much higher damage, but most of the time it doesn’t happen. Whereas the admiral has a solid and reliable (and slightly higher) output. Plus additional abilities and options if you’re not in melee yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick907 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 8 hours ago, Luzgurbel said: Why an Admiral over an Endrimaster? I see the warscroll for both and are horrible, but the Master can deal much more damage in melee than the Admiral. Endrinmaster can repair d3 damage so I usually go with him over the Admiral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cofaxest Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just want to share with you guys xD 48 balloon boys) 6 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Wastelands Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, cofaxest said: Just want to share with you guys 48 balloon boys) A beautiful sight. That’s 1920 pts though - what about your battleline? 😝 Edited February 25, 2019 by Baron Wastelands 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sttufe Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Quote 2 hours ago, cofaxest said: Just want to share with you guys 48 balloon boys) It certainly looks good, but how good is it on the tabletop, combat perspective. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sttufe Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Speaking as a new player, what would happen if I took it to a friendly game (Proceeds to get blasted out of the sky.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 hours ago, cofaxest said: Just want to share with you guys 48 balloon boys) That’s awesome! Just add Brokk and get those games in! Life’s to short to include battleline in every game! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cofaxest Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 4 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said: A beautiful sight. That’s 1920 pts though - what about your battleline? 😝 It's only part of collection) 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primes Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) Hello everyone, I´m not sure if the Navigator is as bad as some make him out to be. Halving movement of flyers is something quite powerful in the current meta, isn´t it? Grimghast move 4" instead of 8, Boingrotz only move 1D6 etc. Reading the warscroll: It seems like two navigators can stack! It says within "the" Navigator, not "any" Navigator. For the price of one Khemist we could reduce the move of flying opponents to 1/4 of its original value. I know, that we would have to roll two 3+ but having two really helps of getting the storm of at least once. Depending on matchup I see some merit for using this cool model. What do you think? Also, @cofaxest, great looking army! Edited February 26, 2019 by Primes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzgurbel Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 I also like the navigator. Enlightened move 16", Maw Krusha moves 12", many many flying units move 10" or more (basically more), and for 80 points have the chance of 1 basic dispelling AND halve the movement of those powerful units... Bring me 2, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primes Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) Also, point for point, what is stronger? I´m no Mathhammer genius buy maybe someone has already figured it out: 20 Thunderers with 20 Rifles + Khemist for 560 Pts or 20 Thunderers with mixed weapons, e.g. 8 Rifles, 4 of each Mortars, Decksweepers and Aethercannons and thus rahter high chances of getting the boni for each subsequently used weapon for 400 Pts I feel losing the dependecy on two Khemists could be a viable and futureproof way to go! Here we go, I´ve done the math. Assuming the Champ always uses a Rifle and more or less average rolls for D3s and D6s (weighted toward better results thanks to potential rerolls) we have the following results: Mixed Setup: 18 Rifleshots, 16 Sweepershots, 4 Aethercannonshots and 4 Mortarshots 10,1 Damage vs. 3+, 13,1 Damage vs 4+ and 16,0 Damage vs. 5+ Resulting in 2,54 to 3,99 Damage per 100 Points spent Rifle Setup: 42 Rifleshots 7,4 Damage vs. 3+, 9,9 Damage vs 4+ and 12,2 Damage vs. 5+ Resulting in 1,84 to 3,05 Damage per 100 Points spent Rilfe Setup + Khemist: 62 Rifleshots 10,4 Damage vs. 3+, 13,9 Damage vs 4+ and 17,2 Damage vs. 5+ plus (although he should be out of range) 10,5 Khemist shots 1,8 Damage vs. 3+, 2,2 Damage vs 4+ and 2,6 Damage vs. 5+ Resulting in 1,85 (2,17 with Khemistshots) to 3,07 (3,54 with Khemistshots) Damage per 100 Points spent Sooo, point for point the mixed setup does more damage but at a lower range of 12" instead of 18" (which is quite relevant I think). On the other hand the mixed setup won´t lose effectiveness when the Khemist dies or is used to buff another unit, eg. Endrinriggers. Edited February 26, 2019 by Primes Mathed it out myself - and made a mistake :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Luzgurbel said: I also like the navigator. Enlightened move 16", Maw Krusha moves 12", many many flying units move 10" or more (basically more), and for 80 points have the chance of 1 basic dispelling AND halve the movement of those powerful units... Bring me 2, please. I do like it and take it but with the current rules it never feels as an big enough impact. Take the maw krusha for example. If it starts just outside 18" it doesnt matter. But still 18" minus 12" minus allegiance move leaves a 3 inch charge. It it's within 18" its still 6 inch move, plus it's Allegiance move leaves a 6" charge. But that's the best your getting on a 3 up and very careful positioning. because everything closer than 18" is reduces that charge. Or the enlightened best case you leave them on a 10" charge. So that ability is not enough for me. But having the dispel, extra move, halving movement. Together its definety a welcome addition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavionStar Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Excellent to see some positive KO talk! I've got all the models for my 1k army now. Gonna finish painting my first company tonight and get a bunch more assembled this week! Learning more and more from all you guys and hoping I can find a place to actually play this. XD My local shop seems to mainly do 40k, but there is a GW store not terribly far away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruchnar Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 On 2/19/2019 at 11:57 AM, Kramer said: No worries, it’s an interesting choice. 3 endrinriggers are just not going to do much more than be a very mobile screen. While buffed with six they can dish it out. On the other hand 6 more skyhook shots... I just don’t know what will net you more in an objectives game like AoS. I have been thinking about that list I posted the other day and finally I have come to this: Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords Mortal Realm: Ghur Skyport: Barak-Mhornar - Additional Footnote: There's No Trading With Some People Leaders Knight-Incantor (140) - Allies Aether-Khemist (160) - General - Trait: Opportunistic Privateers - Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm Aether-Khemist (160) Battleline 10 x Arkanaut Company (120) - 3x Light Skyhooks 10 x Arkanaut Company (120) - 3x Light Skyhooks 40 x Arkanaut Company (480) - 12x Light Skyhooks Units 5 x Evocators (200) - 5x Grandstaves - Allies 9 x Endrinriggers (360) - 3x Aethermatic Volley Guns - 3x Drill Cannons Total: 1740 / 1750 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 340 / 400 Wounds: 108 This is definetly a totally different list from the other day but I think, that Mhornar will help me way better than Zifilin against DoK. Also, now I have: + wizzards +bigger blob of Arkanauts + another hero + bigger unit of endrinriggers - no deepstrike - no ships! And, if I'm not wrong, I can use the "Who strikes first, strikes hardest" ability on the evocators too. I still got some time until friday to play with this list but I'm pretty happy about this one so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 23 minutes ago, Ruchnar said: I have been thinking about that list I posted the other day and finally I have come to this: Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords Mortal Realm: Ghur Skyport: Barak-Mhornar - Additional Footnote: There's No Trading With Some People Leaders Knight-Incantor (140) - Allies Aether-Khemist (160) - General - Trait: Opportunistic Privateers - Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm Aether-Khemist (160) Battleline 10 x Arkanaut Company (120) - 3x Light Skyhooks 10 x Arkanaut Company (120) - 3x Light Skyhooks 40 x Arkanaut Company (480) - 12x Light Skyhooks Units 5 x Evocators (200) - 5x Grandstaves - Allies 9 x Endrinriggers (360) - 3x Aethermatic Volley Guns - 3x Drill Cannons Total: 1740 / 1750 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 340 / 400 Wounds: 108 This is definetly a totally different list from the other day but I think, that Mhornar will help me way better than Zifilin against DoK. Also, now I have: + wizzards +bigger blob of Arkanauts + another hero + bigger unit of endrinriggers - no deepstrike - no ships! And, if I'm not wrong, I can use the "Who strikes first, strikes hardest" ability on the evocators too. I still got some time until friday to play with this list but I'm pretty happy about this one so far. No sadly allegiance abilities are tied to the allegiance keyword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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