AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[RaritanAnon]

6 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

My point was that if you have an option to take riggers as battleline, everyone will. Notwithstanding that there are already spammable battleline in other armies, I don’t think that’s the way to ‘fix’ KO. Would like to see more options, certainly, that encourage a variety of builds.

I think everyone can agree, thunderers battleline is a must-have for 3.0. Then a flat increase of saves on boats across the board. 5+ is fine for the gunboats, but 4+ for the frigate, and 3+ for the ironclad is paramount.

Also, something like being -1 to hit in combat unless the enemy is flying. It makes little sense that any Joe Schmoe is able to assault a flying airship with ease. 

[Kokoshi]

49 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

My point was that if you have an option to take riggers as battleline, everyone will. Notwithstanding that there are already spammable battleline in other armies, I don’t think that’s the way to ‘fix’ KO. Would like to see more options, certainly, that encourage a variety of builds.

Ok, I understand your point. Makes sense and you certainly are more experienced than I am.

[Arkanaut Admiral]

I wouldn’t make Endrinriggers battleline, as then they’d just render the other options completely pointless in a way.  I would make Skywardens and Thunderers battleline if you have the Overlord Allegiance though.  Helps us out a long way whilst avoiding ally shenanigans.

And 4+ save and automatic tireless endrinrigger for the ships for sure.  And automatic aetheric navigation too.  Whilst the stand alone Navigator allows the ship he’s embarked upon to Outflank.  Now that would make them useful!

[Beliman]

They should try to figure how this army should work first. At this moment, this army works like a gunline (with 1-2 vehicles) with glasscannon cavalry. That's really nice, but I don't feel that they did a good job. I play vs Nurgle/LoN, and I really find that their mechancis are really well made; they explain their army, and make everything interesting (magic, summoning, mortal wounds, demons, etc...). I want the same feeling when I play an army of steampunk-pirates dwarfs:

-Pirates: That's one of our first themes, "plunder and fast atacks". Use everything to ensure that we win, and make profit in the process. That's te theme that I really want to see in our mechanics.  Charging and shooting should be revised. Maneuvering should be part of our design (and I mean SHIPS!! Not endrinriggers/skywardens with grapnels). Our miniatures have all the tools that scream "pirates", from cutlass/skypikes, to guns/cannons, etc... but our gameplay only have 1 skyport/footnote to help us in playing like pirates. Btw, I want to see an utility ability called "Parrrrrrrrrley".

-Steampunk: We have the best mid-range weapons, and the best looking models (ever). Now, we need a bit more utility to make this theme work. If we are stunties (0 magic), maybe it's time to use that steampowered tech to have an edge over enemy wizzards: "aether-bombs" that disrupt magic (maybe LoS for magic?), some gas-grenades that erase every endless spells  (new miniature!!!)?, etc (you get the point).  Anything is welcome to ensure that we don't trust in superstition (I mean magic) but we are really deep in our aether-science.

-Stunties: Well my first love from WFB. I'm not going to focus on our stats, but I really want to have something that make us believe that we still play with dwarfs. I don't know, maybe use a bit of our ol'rune magic? Or our ol'stubborn traits (ressolute/relentless)? maybe some type of items that make us really hard to kill (Gromril armour?) maybe something that make us better at using steampunk-weapons (old engineers?). And I really hope to see some new units in the future (like exiled dwars that can't even put a foot on Mhornar skyports,a nd of course, more named characters!!).
Note: I'm not saying to have the same feeling of our dispossessed cousins, my points are just a bit of brainstorming that anything.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Beliman

[Baron Wastelands]

Some good ideas here. I think I would endorse all of the following:

Arkanauts - give -1 rend. Also make cost 120/300, which would make large footslogging units more viable too.

Thunderers - make battleline for KO.

Sky wardens - make battleline if. Personally I’d make Brokk a generic (i.e. unnamed) character, and make sky wardens battleline if (e.g.) Sky Marshall is your general. Go balloon-bourne army!

Gunhaulers - reduce cost. 120 sounds fair. I have a feeling their utility with ironclads should have more impact, but they’re too expensive to tinker with, and you certainly wouldn’t take them for damage output. Alternatively to reducing the cost, you could give them a transport capacity of 0, but allow riggers/wardens to hitch. Or a capacity of 1, to allow a character to ride as well. Ok, I mean khemist ?

Frigate - 4+ save.

Ironclad - 3+ save.

 

@Kokoshi If by experienced you mean old, I’ll take it! ? But thanks for some very measured suggestions which have got us all thinking about non-game breaking solutions. Now you don’t know anyone at GW do you? ?

[Arkanaut Admiral]

Would definitely give Arkanaut guns -1 Rend.  No idea why they didn’t have it to begin with.  Pretty much all other guns have -1 Rend.

Also, I want to throw this out there.  You really want Overlords to play the way they work in fluff?  Change the whole embarking/disembarking set up to match the terrain garrison rules.  So now, the embarked models can fight from the ships.  They can shoot and fight, and be targeted in return, but with the bonus of -1 to hit and cover to protect them.  Plus, a navigator can now unbound spells whilst embarked.

I tested this system out once against Ironjawz, and it was fantastic.  The only two snags that remained unanswered were how to handle the casualties from a destroyed ship and battleshock.  But I know it isn’t broken because I still lost the game!

Also, to carry on what Beliman was saying, since we have no magic, we deserve very strong magical defences instead.  So with that in mind, I would let Frigates and Ironclads dispel enemy magic.  They have a navigator on board.  He could do it.  Whilst ‘Trust Aethermatics Not Superstition’ could become a sort of save against magic, like a Dispossessed Runic Icon.  Just some thoughts.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Arkanaut Admiral

[Kokoshi]

18 hours ago, RaritanAnon said:

I think everyone can agree, thunderers battleline is a must-have for 3.0. Then a flat increase of saves on boats across the board. 5+ is fine for the gunboats, but 4+ for the frigate, and 3+ for the ironclad is paramount.

Also, something like being -1 to hit in combat unless the enemy is flying. It makes little sense that any Joe Schmoe is able to assault a flying airship with ease. 

 

6 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

I wouldn’t make Endrinriggers battleline, as then they’d just render the other options completely pointless in a way.  I would make Skywardens and Thunderers battleline if you have the Overlord Allegiance though.  Helps us out a long way whilst avoiding ally shenanigans.

And 4+ save and automatic tireless endrinrigger for the ships for sure.  And automatic aetheric navigation too.  Whilst the stand alone Navigator allows the ship he’s embarked upon to Outflank.  Now that would make them useful!

 

6 hours ago, Beliman said:

They should try to figure how this army should work first. At this moment, this army works like a gunline (with 1-2 vehicles) with glasscannon cavalry. That's really nice, but I don't feel that they did a good job. I play vs Nurgle/LoN, and I really find that their mechancis are really well made; they explain their army, and make everything interesting (magic, summoning, mortal wounds, demons, etc...). I want the same feeling when I play an army of steampunk-pirates dwarfs:

-Pirates: That's one of our first themes, "plunder and fast atacks". Use everything to ensure that we win, and make profit in the process. That's te theme that I really want to see in our mechanics.  Charging and shooting should be revised. Maneuvering should be part of our design (and I mean SHIPS!! Not endrinriggers/skywardens with grapnels). Our miniatures have all the tools that scream "pirates", from cutlass/skypikes, to guns/cannons, etc... but our gameplay only have 1 skyport/footnote to help us in playing like pirates. Btw, I want to see an utility ability called "Parrrrrrrrrley".

-Steampunk: We have the best mid-range weapons, and the best looking models (ever). Now, we need a bit more utility to make this theme work. If we are stunties (0 magic), maybe it's time to use that steampowered tech to have an edge over enemy wizzards: "aether-bombs" that disrupt magic (maybe LoS for magic?), some gas-grenades that erase every endless spells  (new miniature!!!)?, etc (you get the point).  Anything is welcome to ensure that we don't trust in superstition (I mean magic) but we are really deep in our aether-science.

-Stunties: Well my first love from WFB. I'm not going to focus on our stats, but I really want to have something that make us believe that we still play with dwarfs. I don't know, maybe use a bit of our ol'rune magic? Or our ol'stubborn traits (ressolute/relentless)? maybe some type of items that make us really hard to kill (Gromril armour?) maybe something that make us better at using steampunk-weapons (old engineers?). And I really hope to see some new units in the future (like exiled dwars that can't even put a foot on Mhornar skyports,a nd of course, more named characters!!).
Note: I'm not saying to have the same feeling of our dispossessed cousins, my points are just a bit of brainstorming that anything.

 

6 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said:

Some good ideas here. I think I would endorse all of the following:

Arkanauts - give -1 rend. Also make cost 120/300, which would make large footslogging units more viable too.

Thunderers - make battleline for KO.

Sky wardens - make battleline if. Personally I’d make Brokk a generic (i.e. unnamed) character, and make sky wardens battleline if (e.g.) Sky Marshall is your general. Go balloon-bourne army!

Gunhaulers - reduce cost. 120 sounds fair. I have a feeling their utility with ironclads should have more impact, but they’re too expensive to tinker with, and you certainly wouldn’t take them for damage output. Alternatively to reducing the cost, you could give them a transport capacity of 0, but allow riggers/wardens to hitch. Or a capacity of 1, to allow a character to ride as well. Ok, I mean khemist ?

Frigate - 4+ save.

Ironclad - 3+ save.

 

@Kokoshi If by experienced you mean old, I’ll take it! ? But thanks for some very measured suggestions which have got us all thinking about non-game breaking solutions. Now you don’t know anyone at GW do you? ?

 

5 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

Would definitely give Arkanaut guns -1 Rend.  No idea why they didn’t have it to begin with.  Pretty much all other guns have -1 Rend.

Also, I want to throw this out there.  You really want Overlords to play the way they work in fluff?  Change the whole embarking/disembarking set up to match the terrain garrison rules.  So now, the embarked models can fight from the ships.  They can shoot and fight, and be targeted in return, but with the bonus of -1 to hit and cover to protect them.  Plus, a navigator can now unbound spells whilst embarked.

I tested this system out once against Ironjawz, and it was fantastic.  The only two snags that remained unanswered were how to handle the casualties from a destroyed ship and battleshock.  But I know it isn’t broken because I still lost the game!

Also, to carry on what Beliman was saying, since we have no magic, we deserve very strong magical defences instead.  So with that in mind, I would let Frigates and Ironclads dispel enemy magic.  They have a navigator on board.  He could do it.  Whilst ‘Trust Aethermatics Not Superstition’ could become a sort of save against magic, like a Dispossessed Runic Icon.  Just some thoughts.

Thanks all for these answers. The aim was really to get some minor tweaks that can be achieved in a single Errata sheet. Mostly point and some number modifications.

@Baron Wastelands : I don't know anybody working at GW, but they are quite easy to reach on their community page. It might be a bit idealistic, but I think they might have a look at minor changes. Trying to make new rules and stuff might interest them, but that would certainly be part of a new Battletome. On the other hand, they started to publish big biannual Errata for W40k. It would be kind/smart of them to pick minor changes from the community to "refresh" old Battletomes with little work.

@Beliman : anti-magic abilities/weapon is also a really good idea. I like the idea of runic ships able to unbind spells.

@RaritanAnon : I like both of your ideas as ships resilience seems to be quite an issue. Both ideas (malus to hit and save increase) seem maybe a bit "too much" and would need to create a new rule for the malus.

@Arkanaut Admiral : love the idea of embarked crew able to shoot through fences. Might need a full rewrite of the rules though...
 

If I try to sum your advices and organise them in "Minor changes" (the kind that could be applied with little efforts by GW in an Errata) and "Major changes" (the kind that would need a new battletome).

MINOR CHANGES :

• Change Arkanaut Companies Privateer Pistol Rend to -1. As any firearm in the game. Still gives room for Thunderers that keep a better range and cost less points.
• Change Arkanaut Companies point cost to 120/300. Allows maxed size unit of "regular" battle line for less points.
• Change Grundstok Thunderers role : Battleline if Kharadron Overlords. Allows for variety in army building, and might give a place to this unit. Allows for pure elite gun line list !
• Change Skywarden role : Battleline if Kharadron Overlords. Allows for variety in army building, and might give a place to this unit. Allows for pure balloon list !
• Change Arkanaut Frigate and Grundstok Gunhauler Save to 4+.
• Change Ironclad Save to 3+.
• Change Grundstok Gunhauler point cost to 120. Makes it a decent flying wall/ship screen/canon looking at its low damage output and lack of room for transport.

MAJOR CHANGES :

• Sky pirates :
  • Embarked units able to shoot with their weapons. They might also be targeted but should benefit from cover while inside the ship.
  • Grundstock Gunhauler could have room for one embarked model. Giving it the Embark/disembark rule allow Skywardens/Endrinriggers to use it...
  • -1 to hit malus in melee against ships ?
  • Ability to manoeuver during shooting/charge phase ? With a bonus from the Navigator ?
  • New hero instead of Brokk ?
• Magic resilience:
  • Every Frigate/Ironclad has a Navigator, and thus the ability to unbind a spell. Navigator could have an ability for dispelling Endless spells (aetheric grenade ?). The "Trust Aethermatics, not Superstitions" might give a 6+ Save against Spell effect ? New anti-magic artefacts ?

Edited October 28, 2018 by Kokoshi

[Gecktron]

4 hours ago, Kokoshi said:

If I try to sum your advices and organise them in "Minor changes" (the kind that could be applied with little efforts by GW in an Errata) and "Major changes" (the kind that would need a new battletome).

MINOR CHANGES :

• Change Arkanaut Companies Privateer Pistol Rend to -1. As any firearm in the game. Still gives room for Thunderers that keep a better range and cost less points.
• Change Arkanaut Companies point cost to 120/300. Allows maxed size unit of "regular" battle line for less points.
• Change Grundstok Thunderers role : Battleline if Kharadron Overlords. Allows for variety in army building, and might give a place to this unit. Allows for pure elite gun line list !
• Change Skywarden role : Battleline if Kharadron Overlords. Allows for variety in army building, and might give a place to this unit. Allows for pure balloon list !
• Change Arkanaut Frigate and Grundstok Gunhauler Save to 4+.
• Change Ironclad Save to 3+.
• Change Grundstok Gunhauler point cost to 120. Makes it a decent flying wall/ship screen/canon looking at its low damage output and lack of room for transport.

MAJOR CHANGES :

• Sky pirates :
  • Embarked units able to shoot with their weapons. They might also be targeted but should benefit from cover while inside the ship.
  • Grundstock Gunhauler could have room for one embarked model. Giving it the Embark/disembark rule allow Skywardens/Endrinriggers to use it...
  • -1 to hit malus in melee against ships ?
  • Ability to manoeuver during shooting/charge phase ? With a bonus from the Navigator ?
  • New hero instead of Brokk ?
• Magic resilience:
  • Every Frigate/Ironclad has a Navigator, and thus the ability to unbind a spell. Navigator could have an ability for dispelling Endless spells (aetheric grenade ?). The "Trust Aethermatics, not Superstitions" might give a 6+ Save against Spell effect ? New anti-magic artefacts ?

There are a lot of good ideas in there! 

I completely agree with Minor changes and the "Battleline if" changes. The Kharadrons need more variety and that would be a cheap way to do it. This would also give the Skywardens a specific role.  
Only thing I would do differently is the save on the Gunhauler. I would keep the 5+ save (but still make it cheaper) to have a certain progression between the different ships. 

 

In regards to the major changes:

• I would simply change it so that skyvessels use the garrison rule from the current core book. This would prevent the rules from getting to complex. 
• The Gunhauler change sounds good. I have thought about something similar a while back. 
• The increased save should take care of the survivability of the ships. Close combat debuffs would unfairly target pure combat armies like khorne and would make the Kharadrons not fun to play against
• New Hero: how about something similar to the plague drone hero for the MoN? A new hero from a existing kit. One possible build would be a Skyrigger with two pistols (as Endrinriggers and Skywardens use the opposite hand for their pistols)
• Spell-proofing ships sounds good. A 6+ anti-magic aura around every sky vessel would make the ships more important 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Gecktron

[Arkanaut Admiral]

Using the Garrison rules for the ships would be best.  I just encountered two problems when using them; 1, Battleshock, and 2, how to handle the ship exploding.  

Since the embarked units can loose models and thus require Battleshock tests, they run the risk of models fleeing.  It's OK from a gaming perspective, but what about a fluff perspective?  If you're on a flying ship, where do you flee too?  Lifeboats?  Parachutes? 

Also, if you're using the Garrison rules and the ship explodes, you get to set the disembarking units up 6" away from the wreckage.  My opponent wasn't too happy with this, because it's letting those units "escape".  My suggestion to this would be to say that they can disembark 6" away from the wreckage, but they suffer an automatic D3 mortal wounds to balance it out.  I think this scales out better than the all or nothing approach currently used.  

Another couple of issues; what happens if the ship moves into deadly terrain?  Does the unit also have to roll?  I would say yes, they do.  This is quite cinematic...the ship being rocked by the deadly terrain, with some poor unfortunate Duardin being killed as a result.  

And if the ship charges, the embarked units won't get their cover save, as they too will count as having charged.  But I suppose that's OK.

These are all minor issues though.  The overall mechanics are sound. 

[cofaxest]

12 hours ago, Kokoshi said:

 

 

 

 

Thanks all for these answers. The aim was really to get some minor tweaks that can be achieved in a single Errata sheet. Mostly point and some number modifications.

@Baron Wastelands : I don't know anybody working at GW, but they are quite easy to reach on their community page. It might be a bit idealistic, but I think they might have a look at minor changes. Trying to make new rules and stuff might interest them, but that would certainly be part of a new Battletome. On the other hand, they started to publish big biannual Errata for W40k. It would be kind/smart of them to pick minor changes from the community to "refresh" old Battletomes with little work.

@Beliman : anti-magic abilities/weapon is also a really good idea. I like the idea of runic ships able to unbind spells.

@RaritanAnon : I like both of your ideas as ships resilience seems to be quite an issue. Both ideas (malus to hit and save increase) seem maybe a bit "too much" and would need to create a new rule for the malus.

@Arkanaut Admiral : love the idea of embarked crew able to shoot through fences. Might need a full rewrite of the rules though...
 

If I try to sum your advices and organise them in "Minor changes" (the kind that could be applied with little efforts by GW in an Errata) and "Major changes" (the kind that would need a new battletome).

MINOR CHANGES :

• Change Arkanaut Companies Privateer Pistol Rend to -1. As any firearm in the game. Still gives room for Thunderers that keep a better range and cost less points.
• Change Arkanaut Companies point cost to 120/300. Allows maxed size unit of "regular" battle line for less points.
• Change Grundstok Thunderers role : Battleline if Kharadron Overlords. Allows for variety in army building, and might give a place to this unit. Allows for pure elite gun line list !
• Change Skywarden role : Battleline if Kharadron Overlords. Allows for variety in army building, and might give a place to this unit. Allows for pure balloon list !
• Change Arkanaut Frigate and Grundstok Gunhauler Save to 4+.
• Change Ironclad Save to 3+.
• Change Grundstok Gunhauler point cost to 120. Makes it a decent flying wall/ship screen/canon looking at its low damage output and lack of room for transport.

MAJOR CHANGES :

• Sky pirates :
  • Embarked units able to shoot with their weapons. They might also be targeted but should benefit from cover while inside the ship.
  • Grundstock Gunhauler could have room for one embarked model. Giving it the Embark/disembark rule allow Skywardens/Endrinriggers to use it...
  • -1 to hit malus in melee against ships ?
  • Ability to manoeuver during shooting/charge phase ? With a bonus from the Navigator ?
  • New hero instead of Brokk ?
• Magic resilience:
  • Every Frigate/Ironclad has a Navigator, and thus the ability to unbind a spell. Navigator could have an ability for dispelling Endless spells (aetheric grenade ?). The "Trust Aethermatics, not Superstitions" might give a 6+ Save against Spell effect ? New anti-magic artefacts ?

+ KO ships should have option to do bombing run.(4+ with reroll if 10 or more models d3 mw and/or -1 to hit)

+ option to throw bombs in combat phase (4+ with reroll if 10 or more models D3 mw and/or -1 to hit)

 

[RaritanAnon]

So I recently traded an old army for a friend's KO force. What I got out of it was

2 Admirals

2 Khemists 

2 Endrinmasters 

40x Arkanauts (6 with skypikes, 6 with Skyhooks) 

9 Endrinriggers

2 Gunhaulers 

1 Ironclad 

1 Frigate 

2 boxes of Arkanauts Unbuilt 

What else should I pick up, or is that entirely solid? Thinking of getting a navigator, at least. 

[cofaxest]

9 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

Using the Garrison rules for the ships would be best.  I just encountered two problems when using them; 1, Battleshock, and 2, how to handle the ship exploding.  

Since the embarked units can loose models and thus require Battleshock tests, they run the risk of models fleeing.  It's OK from a gaming perspective, but what about a fluff perspective?  If you're on a flying ship, where do you flee too?  Lifeboats?  Parachutes? 

Also, if you're using the Garrison rules and the ship explodes, you get to set the disembarking units up 6" away from the wreckage.  My opponent wasn't too happy with this, because it's letting those units "escape".  My suggestion to this would be to say that they can disembark 6" away from the wreckage, but they suffer an automatic D3 mortal wounds to balance it out.  I think this scales out better than the all or nothing approach currently used.  

Another couple of issues; what happens if the ship moves into deadly terrain?  Does the unit also have to roll?  I would say yes, they do.  This is quite cinematic...the ship being rocked by the deadly terrain, with some poor unfortunate Duardin being killed as a result.  

And if the ship charges, the embarked units won't get their cover save, as they too will count as having charged.  But I suppose that's OK.

These are all minor issues though.  The overall mechanics are sound. 

1) KO on the ships should be immune to battleshock

2) If skyvessel destroyed roll a dice for each unit within x" - on x+ unit suffers d3 mw. 

[Kramer]

Hi all, in a few weeks I’m going to play a three player linked battle series against Daughters of Khaine and Beast of Chaos. I’m playing everyone twice and we’re playing one 1000pts no changes in between. As I have close to a month of painting time I have the time to buy and paint something. If necessary of course. 

What strategies, tips and units would you reckonmend against these armies? 

Currently own: 2x10 arkanauts, frigate, gunhauler, 3 skywardens*, 3 endrinriggers, 2 khemist, navigator and an admiral. *might convert them into riggers

[Barkanaut]

3 hours ago, RaritanAnon said:

So I recently traded an old army for a friend's KO force. What I got out of it was

2 Admirals

2 Khemists 

2 Endrinmasters 

40x Arkanauts (6 with skypikes, 6 with Skyhooks) 

9 Endrinriggers

2 Gunhaulers 

1 Ironclad 

1 Frigate 

2 boxes of Arkanauts Unbuilt 

What else should I pick up, or is that entirely solid? Thinking of getting a navigator, at least. 

Solid but Brok and a Navigator could do good in some lists and if you want to try the two frigate list instead of one Ironclad that might be recommended. Other than that your looking good. Many take a single squad of thunderers with no special weapons can fill out lists too. So its all up to you. 

[Baron Wastelands]

2 hours ago, Kramer said:

Hi all, in a few weeks I’m going to play a three player linked battle series against Daughters of Khaine and Beast of Chaos. I’m playing everyone twice and we’re playing one 1000pts no changes in between. As I have close to a month of painting time I have the time to buy and paint something. If necessary of course. 

What strategies, tips and units would you reckonmend against these armies? 

Currently own: 2x10 arkanauts, frigate, gunhauler, 3 skywardens*, 3 endrinriggers, 2 khemist, navigator and an admiral. *might convert them into riggers

I think I’d recommend thunderers, and lots of them. Which may not be what you want to hear, given your current collection! BoC have no shooting, and DoK have limited; both are going to want to mulch you in melee. Neither army has big saves, so the more shots you can do at range, the better. And the thunderers ability to retreat in combat means you are going to save at least a unit a turn if they charge multiple units. A single Fumigator helps too; deploy them in a bunch with the fumigator in the middle, so that even wrap arounds get fumed.

You can try and alpha strike them with riggers, but it’s higher risk, and you have one shot. If they’ve gone heavy on one buffed unit at 1k, this might work, but Riggers will get pulled apart quickly if there’s much left of what they hit. Even combat heroes will get shredded against witch elves/ Bullgors/ghorgons. 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Baron Wastelands said:

I think I’d recommend thunderers, and lots of them. Which may not be what you want to hear, given your current collection! BoC have no shooting, and DoK have limited; both are going to want to mulch you in melee. Neither army has big saves, so the more shots you can do at range, the better. And the thunderers ability to retreat in combat means you are going to save at least a unit a turn if they charge multiple units. A single Fumigator helps too; deploy them in a bunch with the fumigator in the middle, so that even wrap arounds get fumed.

You can try and alpha strike them with riggers, but it’s higher risk, and you have one shot. If they’ve gone heavy on one buffed unit at 1k, this might work, but Riggers will get pulled apart quickly if there’s much left of what they hit. Even combat heroes will get shredded against witch elves/ Bullgors/ghorgons. 

Good call! Thunderers have been on The wishlist for quite some time. My main worry is indeed building a ‘standard list’ by adding more riggers. 

I’m proxied thunderers 2 or 3 times and 10 with the khemist might be indeed what I need. 

I’m also considering brokk with some riggers instead of the frigate for these match ups. (The model being a big reason though  ) 

any thoughts on Brokk? 

[bsharitt]

Thunderers as a KO only battle line option has been on my wishlist from day one and I keep hoping that the next GHB will fix it. Of course I guess I'd settle for Arkanaut company being less awful if they're going to be the only battle line option.

At least the gun haulers have made some progress in points and now they're still overpriced, but not at an untakable cost. I think I'd rather they get something to make them work 160 points rather than further price drops. Don't really like the single embark option mentioned above. That's just going to be badly abused and further push KO mono listing toward endrinriggers. Some sort of air patrol rule where they can drop down when needed. Basically the aetherspheric endrins built in. Since they don't carry troops, it shouldn't be too overpowered and you still have the special endrins for troop carriers and it gives them an additional role.

[Baron Wastelands]

12 hours ago, Kramer said:

 

I’m also considering brokk with some riggers instead of the frigate for these match ups. (The model being a big reason though  ) 

any thoughts on Brokk? 

I’m afraid I haven’t used him, so can’t really comment, but I know others on here have used him with good effect, seems to be quite effective for his cost. I think he would be useful in targeting and taking out buffing heroes in DoK, at least - maybe a doombull in BoC? 

He is also good support for melee units, in helping them get the charge when needed. Don’t think he adds much to a gun line though?

[Arkanaut Admiral]

I’m looking at rewriting the Kharadron Code...hands up who thinks that Footnotes should be once per turn rather than once per game?  

[Nick907]

Here are my thoughts. I definitely have some selfish rules changes I'd like too. Tougher boats, cheaper Gunhaulers, more range or rend or damage. I think it will be tough for the company to decide on changes because they all have potentially significant consequences. 

-Battleline Thunderers might replace Company in most lists. Since both the units are less desirable for the Khemist augmentation then the Riggers, people might just run three minimum sized units of Thunderers to  save 60 points so they fit their entire army inside one Ironclad.  Battleline if: SkyWardens would probably make the most sense if another option must be added, but I think requiring a minimum 'two drops at 2000 points' was a deliberate design decision. 

- Giving Company Pistols -1 Rend would make them too strong relative to other 120 point ranged units. 'Dispossessed Thunderers' and 'Wanderer Glade Guard' have 5+ saves, weak melee, and a single 'good' long range shooting attack.  With Company you have at least 7 models with one 'average'  melee attack and 2 'average' shooting attacks each, but then you have three models that can become specialized for either 'good' ranged or 'good' melee attacks.  Arguably Arkanauts are already among the best battleline units in the game, so -1 rend would require a points increase.

I like some of the proposed special rules changes, even though some of them are hard to quantify. I'd like to see units shoot out of embarked vessels, I don't know how that would pencil out though. 

I also think that some additional anti-magic abilities makes sense, now that we are in the post 'endless spells' era, but I don't think it is too important. We are Dwarfs, we shoot the wizards with guns and they blow us up with spells.  Some defense is okay, but killing more models is better.  

I really like the idea of '-1 to hit' in melee for flying models (unless they can also fly) and would even add 'flying models do not block line of sight for friendly units'; that could be a basic rules change for all armies. 

I think we will get a new hero with Underworlds, hopefully he will have a strong command ability. That move alone could potentially make KO more 'competitive.' 

My thoughts.

[Skyeline]

30 minutes ago, Nick907 said:

I think we will get a new hero with Underworlds, hopefully he will have a strong command ability. That move alone could potentially make KO more 'competitive.' 

 

We'll definitely be getting a new warscroll, but I don't imagine he's going to be remarkably different from a standard khemist (unless they don't make him a khemist, which seems extremely unlikely based on how he looks).

I'm not expecting a command ability based on the track record of the warscrolls we've seen from other Underworlds teams. Chosen Axes and Spiteclaw's were the only two that received command abilities and they were mirrors of the generic leader models they represented (Runefather and Skaven Warlord, respectively). This is however a case where I'd be happy to be wrong. New options are always great!

The rest of the team will almost certainly be a unit you have to take with our new mystery Khemist in order to use him. It'll be interesting seeing the statline for a unit that features a Rifle Thunderer, Volleygun Arkanaut, Standard Arkanaut, and a Skywarden.

 

[bsharitt]

6 hours ago, Skyeline said:

We'll definitely be getting a new warscroll, but I don't imagine he's going to be remarkably different from a standard khemist (unless they don't make him a khemist, which seems extremely unlikely based on how he looks).

I'm not expecting a command ability based on the track record of the warscrolls we've seen from other Underworlds teams. Chosen Axes and Spiteclaw's were the only two that received command abilities and they were mirrors of the generic leader models they represented (Runefather and Skaven Warlord, respectively). This is however a case where I'd be happy to be wrong. New options are always great!

The rest of the team will almost certainly be a unit you have to take with our new mystery Khemist in order to use him. It'll be interesting seeing the statline for a unit that features a Rifle Thunderer, Volleygun Arkanaut, Standard Arkanaut, and a Skywarden.

 

Yeah, even with the 2nd generation of warbands, their AoS rules aren't any thing to write home about, so I also don't expect the Underworlds guys to really bring much to the army and will be most useful as alt sculpts for existing units(the Fyreslayer boss is a huge improvement on the Runefather model).

[BWG Cannonball]

Couple shots of my display board with the boys for an upcoming tournament next week.  Also made some custom Aether-Runestones for objective markers.  The ships aren't shown however.

[Kramer]

On 10/30/2018 at 8:15 PM, Nick907 said:

Battleline Thunderers might replace Company in most lists. Since both the units are less desirable for the Khemist augmentation then the Riggers, people might just run three minimum sized units of Thunderers to  save 60 points so they fit their entire army inside one Ironclad.  Battleline if: SkyWardens would probably make the most sense if another option must be added, but I think requiring a minimum 'two drops at 2000 points' was a deliberate design decision

Yeah i agree with this it suddenly makes our elite battleline. Never thought about the point thing either, good catch. Maybe a ‘1 unit counts as battle line for every X hero in you list’ (admiral or endrinmaster or something)

I don’t think GW will make KO very powerful. The game mechanic of transport can never be too powerful because nobody else can use it. In my mind a separate issue from the allegiance abilities from the skyports etc. They could be tweaked but I like them as is well enough.  

On a different note. I’m considering bringing a endrinmaster instead of the admiral to have a hero with bit more punch. But I feel like I’m missing something. With the hammer of awthermatic might the extra attack means more chance of double damage (potential 6), or with the sledgeshock hammer which is no use on the admiral. 

What’s so you guys think/use and why? 

[Nick907]

5 hours ago, Kramer said:

On a different note. I’m considering bringing a endrinmaster instead of the admiral to have a hero with bit more punch. 

He is my favorite hero for sure. Then again, I tend to think of all the sky-dwarfs as being worthy of some renown (40 points per Endrinrigger is like a half a hero each, appropriate given their short stature). I like the Endrin Master's repair ability, I don't use the other heroes so he is my default general.