AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[stato]

5 hours ago, Nicholunch said:

That's right!

(Full 2000 pts not on display for this picture)
(Uncompressed pics here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/d57xnmgo955e9kw/AADyzmE-WxOjlDSgIHVGtwH-a?dl=0 although)

Love it!  Really need to get myself an Ironclad, got 2 more frigates to paint up first though.

[Nicholunch]

5 hours ago, stato said:

Love it!  Really need to get myself an Ironclad, got 2 more frigates to paint up first though.

It was a quick and dirty paint  job. About all i have patience for. Yeah, l have 1 frigate in the box. Got assemble and paint him too.

If anything, the extra ones are great for table terrain in a Skirmish match.

[Slippy]

Hi guys,

Played a game last weekend versus Death. 1500 points Zilfin. I brought three units of 10 arkanauts with 3x3 weapons, 9 Riggers with 2 grapplers, Ironclad, Khemist, Admiral, Navigator.

He had Arkhan, 2 Morghasts, 40 skeletons with a Necromancer, Wight King with 20 Grave Guard  and three Nighthaunt Spirit Bases.

We played a 2 objective mission with the objectives yielding more points every turn you controlled them. 

He split his army across the board, 40 skells with Necro on one side, rest on the other. I redeployed with Fleetmaster. My plan: ignore the skeletons, seize objective turn 1 kill Arkhan and the characters and win.

Was my 3nd game with my now painted KO.

3rd game of AoS also.

First game in 2.0.

 

It did not go so well. I played Dark Eldar for years so I wasn't too scared of an uphill battle but... yikes!

 

I landed on the objective turn 1, got Arkhan down to 1 wound (he had some lucky saves) and proceeded to try to grapple him with my Riggers so I could multicharge a bunch of things after buffing the saws with the Khemist

I failed the grapple.. and I kind of feel like that decided the game then and there. No rerolls like in 40k either! Ouch..

In his turn he got 5 graveguard into combat with the Riggers, which did about 12 wounds (all those skeleton type have a ridiculous amount of attacks), killing them all, and the Morghasts + Spirits got the Ironclad down to 1 wound.

He got the double turn, put the skellies on one objective and knocked me of the other one by almost tabling me. I had some Arkanauts left and my characters, which all died by turn 4.

It was exciting for a while as I got the objective back and we were on equal points for a long while, but it didn't last.

I got stomped pretty badly and never even got close to those 40 skeletons and the Necro.

Points I took from the game:

* AoS and KO have a lot of little rules and interactions and synergies, it's a lot more intricate and complex than it looks at first. I'm sure I forgot a lot.  I'll do better simply by playing more that much was obvious to me. 

* Piling in and locking things into combat by getting stuff within 3" seems to be one of the most exploitable things in the game. You basically charge a unit then glue everything stuck. I learned the hard way! Kind of cool how important positioning is!

* I was kind of annoyed that the Ironclad can basically do  nothing from combat nor after leaving it. Not that it mattered because it died almost instantly (I used to use DE Raiders as physical road blocks to prevent units from being charged.  Thought I'd try the same).

* The Khemist is amazing. Not that we didn't know that but I saw him in action and he was the most effective character by being useful in a lot of different situations. 

* Navigator was useless.  He dispelled one spell, but didn't do anything else.

* I felt really outmatched by not being able to participate in the Magic phase, nor the combat phase nor being able to summon or stop summoning.. KO feel like Tau combined with old Dark Eldar, where you try to play for the objective and kind of ignore half of your opponents army because you won't kill it anyway. It was challenging on one hand but kind of boring on the other. 

* I'm not sure what KO actually want to do. Their guns suggest they want to get up midrange (with their 12" pistols) but they melt when something touches them. Like you're forced to commit and hope you kill enough so they can't retaliate. 

* It's hard to hold an objective with KO. Both of them had to be taken within the first turn because of how the VP work but both of the were within Deaths grasp on turn one as well.  If the Ironclad can't hold and objective I'm bot sure which unit can. I tried to clear something with arkanauts. 10 charged the Ghosts, did 0 wounds, 4 were killed in return and the rest fled, whiping the unit. 

* I guess a mission that allows me to ignore the objectives for a while would allow me to use my movement shenanigans a bit more and more surgically delete units and outrun/outfly those alow Death units. 

* I'm not sure how to peel with KO, we seem to have no real bumper units that soak a charge decently. 

* Characters are vulnerable. I was almost able to kill Arkhan on turn 1, which would've been a huge deal. 

* I got another boat on my painting table but I'm not sure if I want one. Looking at the stats of the units my best bet seems to be to load like 12 more Riggers on the Ironclad, but it's a kind of one dimensional and boring list, and I'm a casual player who likes allround armies. 

 

I'm aware I'm saying few (no?) things you haven't heard already, but advice would be welcome

Not so much as how to win but more as to how to play more effectively and have more fun with my KO.

 

Thanks!

[Soka Paint]

@Slippy  I regularly play an Arkhan-led army, and I regularly lose to them. Don't think I've won one yet. It's just a really tough game for us. I do feel that playing that match-up repeatedly has made me a much better player, though, so there's that.

I agree with many of your points. A few things I've found that might be worth trying (though I still haven't played loads of games myself):

*One way to hold objectives is to push the Riggers and the boat(s) ahead of the objectives, forcing non-flying enemies to have to engage most of the time. If you can bog the opponent down for a turn or two, your shooting will often have done enough damage by the time they've offed your more advanced units, or you'll have a decent VP lead that'll be hard for them to claw back.

*Personally, I like to take a larger unit of Arkanaut Company with Skyhooks. A unit of, say, 30 buffed by a Khemist means you'll get 18 strong 24" shots off on something. That something will probably die. And if it's a hero or a monster the +1 to hit rule can kick in too. If you don't want to go that route, you could look at using Thunderers with rifles in a similar way (though it probably won't be quite so effective).

*When I first started playing, I had a hard time with our shooting because unbuffed, it's quite likely to whiff (lots of 4s to hit/wound). If you can modify this, it's a great help. Barak-Mhornar with the Opportunistic Privateers trait is one good way to achieve rerolls. Being able to run and shoot in your first turn gives you a lot of options, too. And if you went Barak-Mhornar, the Navigator would be a decent candidate for that trait as he has a better save than the Khemist.

*I don't generally try particularly hard to get my skyhook wielding Arkanaut Company within 12" of the enemy. They'll come to you eventually (depending on match-up etc, of course), when you can use the pistols, and in the meantime, you'll have a unit that's not dead yet.

*If you're not aware, you can try to restrict LoN summoning by plonking units on his gravesites or by offing the general. Much easier said than done, but if your opponent can only summon things way back in their territory, those units won't be an immediate threat. Especially slow things like skellies. Also, they need command points for most of their summoning, so if you keep killing stuff, they won't be able to bring it all back.

*The Ironclad can still do damage with its shooting while in combat of course (though only to what's engaging it). You can also retreat it if you don't need its shooting for a turn. That way, you can place the ship so that your opponent will have to charge it again on his next turn, and you'll at least survive your turn!

*You could try Brokk for a bit of extra combat punch if you don't want to load up on Endrinriggers. He's certainly fun!

Hope this helps, and good luck. And I hope that my advice helps me beat my LoN opponent at some point, too...

[stato]

Slippy, I think you just need more practice with the army to work out how you want to play the different untis etc.  You sound like you know what you need to do but maybe just not got all the knowledge you need lined up in your head. 

You had 3 heros but sound like 2 didnt get used to do anything?  they could have been Arkanaut units  with skyhooks maybe? 

At 1500pt you dont have a lot of spare damage dealers, so I probably would have focused entirely on one flank and left the other objective, if you can hold one from the start you should be ahead anyway as long as you dont lose it, and against that list there are only 2 models with ranged attacks (magic) which could have killed whatever was holding it if youd screened, take those out and youve probably won.

Like you said KO work best at mid range, but to do that you need to bring weight of fire to whatever is there, its risky but as you said its hard to hold objectives when the units bearing down on you have the ability to wipe whatever you put there. 

In AoS2 ive found the ability to save my command point for inspiring presence for the unit that needs it is really good, so i try to start with an extra CP saved for that.

[Amradiel]

 

I have three unbuilt Gunhaulers. Which weapon works best on them? 

[stato]

1 minute ago, Amradiel said:

 

I have three unbuilt Gunhaulers. Which weapon works best on them? 

The drillcannon was changed to 24" range but only D3 damage. Given its a 4+ to hit with both id choose the cannon for the 2+ rather than 3+ to wound of the drill, they seem to hit so infrequently i just want better chance to wound over the bonuses the drill gives.

[erasercrumbs]

Are Thunderers with a full compliment of rifles instead of special weapons any good at all?  Rolling one die at a time to work the minor effects of said special weapons seems kinda fiddly.

[Nick907]

28 minutes ago, erasercrumbs said:

Are Thunderers with a full compliment of rifles instead of special weapons any good at all?  Rolling one die at a time to work the minor effects of said special weapons seems kinda fiddly.

Fumigator is good for damage denial, if you want them to be front line

[DrDemento]

54 minutes ago, erasercrumbs said:

Are Thunderers with a full compliment of rifles instead of special weapons any good at all?  Rolling one die at a time to work the minor effects of said special weapons seems kinda fiddly.

It’s about maximizing the khemist buff primarily, then range.  I like the fun of the special weapons stacking buffs but only maybe worth it with a unit of 10 and 2 each of the specials, and then even then it seems like the buffs go off half the time.

[TheEmeraldCaptain]

Hello everyone, 

I just had a quick question, not sure if this is the best place for it but here goes. 

So I just recently got into the game, the aesthetic of steampunk zeppelin sky pirate dwarves in power armor was quite appealing in that regard. I managed to but a lot off of a buddy (battleforce box, one box of company, Brokk, and a gyrocopter). 

 

Question is what's the best way to build them, I cant decide of the start collecting box is better as a means of rounding out the force or go bigger with an ironclad. 

Also mandatory pics, C&C always appreciated. 

[Kramer]

10 hours ago, erasercrumbs said:

Are Thunderers with a full compliment of rifles instead of special weapons any good at all?  Rolling one die at a time to work the minor effects of said special weapons seems kinda fiddly.

I’m more and more in the all rifles camp. Not only because it’s speeds everything up. Less fiddly like you say. 

But the khemist can buff them more efficiently, you have a single range to work with during movement, damage is still quite good (with buff) and even if everything is in range with the different guns i don’t think it will do more damage. 

[Kramer]

2 minutes ago, TheEmeraldCaptain said:

Hello everyone, 

I just had a quick question, not sure if this is the best place for it but here goes. 

So I just recently got into the game, the aesthetic of steampunk zeppelin sky pirate dwarves in power armor was quite appealing in that regard. I managed to but a lot off of a buddy (battleforce box, one box of company, Brokk, and a gyrocopter). 

 

Question is what's the best way to build them, I cant decide of the start collecting box is better as a means of rounding out the force or go bigger with an ironclad. 

Also mandatory pics, C&C always appreciated. 

Looking good! Love the green! 

[erasercrumbs]

50 minutes ago, TheEmeraldCaptain said:

Hello everyone, 

I just had a quick question, not sure if this is the best place for it but here goes. 

So I just recently got into the game, the aesthetic of steampunk zeppelin sky pirate dwarves in power armor was quite appealing in that regard. I managed to but a lot off of a buddy (battleforce box, one box of company, Brokk, and a gyrocopter). 

 

Question is what's the best way to build them, I cant decide of the start collecting box is better as a means of rounding out the force or go bigger with an ironclad. 

Also mandatory pics, C&C always appreciated. 

They look like dragonflies, which is very cool!

[erasercrumbs]

I think the main problem with the KO is that they're so different from every other army, the designers weren't totally sure how they'd play out, so erred on the side of caution making them overpriced and inaccurate.  Now that they're more time tested, it's time to update warscrolls.  Just having a couple of extra wounds on the Frigate would help so much.

[Barkanaut]

13 hours ago, erasercrumbs said:

I think the main problem with the KO is that they're so different from every other army, the designers weren't totally sure how they'd play out, so erred on the side of caution making them overpriced and inaccurate.  Now that they're more time tested, it's time to update warscrolls.  Just having a couple of extra wounds on the Frigate would help so much.

We got nerfed every time a big update came out lol even undeserved nerfs to the point we are here now. Ideally I would love some new models, but if not then some serious rules updates would suffice. 

[Arkanaut Admiral]

Yeah I pretty much agree with all of that.  We started off OK (just) but we were then repeatedly nerfed.  And it definitely feels like we were an army designed with the 'handbrake on' if that makes sense.

I've been talking about how to fix the Overlords here:

http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=231206.msg2775628;topicseen#msg2775628

Long story short, the ships need more wounds, a better save, longer ranged weapons, their Valve Attacks increased and Tireless Endrinrigger to be automatic.   Oh, and the Gunhauler needs to be faster too.  Way faster. 

[Nick907]

I think GW has several options on how to 'fix' the KO. One possibility is the upcoming Underworld models.  A new hero with a strong command ability could be all we need. 

 

[Alfavega]

Hello Guys,

 

i know that KO´s are actually not hte best army.But i wanna play next year a few big tournaments  with them and do my best to dont be overkilled

Tomorrow i got 3 Games with this list which i postet below.1st game vs tzeentch,2 vs nurgle and 3 vs Orks or Sylvaneth.I hope you can give me some good tipps for my list.My idea behind the list ist to split my army in 2 attack forces.In one of the 2 frigates i wanna put 6 riggers,khemist and the 10 thunderer .In the another frigate ,brokk,6 riggers and 10 arkanaut company guys with the volley gun.The other two arkanaut sqauds shoot from behinde an take objectives.I wanna try to give my opponent moore targets like only one to be moore flexible.

 

What do you think ?

 

I would play Barak-Urbaz for the second fight in the hero phase of one of my units an the second boost for my khemist.

 

 

 

 

Allegiance: Order
LEADERS
Aether-Khemist (160)
Brokk Grungsson (260)
UNITS
10 x Arkanaut Company (120) - 3 x  Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120) - 3 x  Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120) - 3 x  Aethermatic Volley Guns
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (200) - 10 x  Aethershot Rifles
6 x Endrinriggers (240)
6 x Endrinriggers (240)
WAR MACHINES
Arkanaut Frigate (240) - Main Gun : Heavy Sky Cannon
Arkanaut Frigate (240) - Main Gun : Heavy Sky Cannon
TOTAL: 1940/2000     EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1     WOUNDS: 105
LEADERS: 2/6    BATTLELINES: 3 (3+)    BEHEMOTHS: 2/4    ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 0/1    ALLIES: 0/400

[Slippy]

@Soka Paint:

Thanks for the tips, I appreciate you taking the time to type up an extensive response to my experiences. I read your post on your tournament win a couple of pages ago, I salute you!

After having read your reply a couple of days ago, I am definitely considering growing the Skyhook unit to 30 men, on foot, with a Khemist nearby. This will clear up some space in the boat and will make it so that I don't really need a second boat. The Frigate is on the painting table right now, but all and all I am not liking the boats. But maybe I am spoiled, I am used to Venoms. 24" for 18 Skyhook shots sounds pretty nasty.

Putting the Ironclad and the Riggers ahead of the objective was exactly what I tried. I put the Admiral on top of the objective and screened him with the Ironclad and the Riggers. I failed the hook and charge with the Riggers, which was a big deal, but I was definitely not expecting two Morghasts, 3 Spirit bases and  a few Graveguard to kill the entire screen in almost one swoop. I feel that, might I have held on a bit longer, this screening tactic might have worked. I didn't get a chance to heal the Ironclad or fly it out. Maybe next time I will!

I might even try a different Skyport. I painted my models in the Zilfin scheme, because I like the Zilfin colours, but I might just try different Ports during the game.

@stato:

Thanks for the tips, you're definitely right. With a bit more practice, I could probably get more out of this game. For the record, I did exactly what you suggested: I focused on one objective, ignoring the other. I figured that, since I had the first turn and could be on the objective turn 1, I would rack in more points than his 40 skeleton + Necro flank which would take 2 turns to get on top of the objective. I split his forces successfully and was able to ignore 40 skeletons and a Necromancer the entire game, but that didn't stop the other half of his army to table me in effectively 2 rounds of combat, with no chance for me to get a response in in between (AoS double-turn is very swingy). I might have fared better if I had spread my forces a bit more. The 3" pile-in in AoS still surprises me. And yeah, I will definitely play more effectively in the future with a bit more practice. 

On your other points, I think you're right on all. The knowledge wasn't lined up in my head at all! The Battletome is a lot to take in, but it's basically impossible for a newbie like me to also take into account all the FAQ's and warscroll changes. Can't keep up
Your three hero points is well taken and I felt the same way. I finished the Khemist and the Navigator recently so I wanted to give them a try, but I usually play Warhammer with the smallest amount of Character models that I have to (still coming from DE, where every HQ you took was basically a mandatory waste of points). Three heroes was two-too-much in my opinion. I think I will, in the future, just settle on the Khemist and see where I go from there.. 

 

I see that posting pictures of your miniatures is a thing here.

I have some pictures up of my army here:

Balloons Baby
(Featuring the latest units I painted, my Riggers, Khemist and Navigator)

Army KO
(My army just before the update above, you have to scroll down a bit). 

Cheers!

Edited October 21, 2018 by Slippy

[RaritanAnon]

A friend of mine bought me some dorfs for my birthday and I figured, what the heck, let's make a 1k list out of them. I only have the two arkanaut companies currently, but I think what I have here is a pretty good list.

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
Skyport: Barak-Urbaz
- Additional Footnote: Without Our Ships We Are Naught
Aether-Khemist (160)
Endrinmaster (120)
- General
- Trait: Grudgebearer 
- Artefact: Hammer of Aethermatic Might 
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3x Aethermatic Volley Guns
3 x Endrinriggers (120)
5 x Grundstok Thunderers (100)
- 5x Aethershot Rifles
Arkanaut Frigate (240)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: The Last Word

Total: 980 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 56

Endrinmaster, Riggers, and one of the arkanauts slap in the frigate for some clown car goodness while the other guys back. Use the khemist on the both of them to pepper the enemy from afar. Then try to keep the frigate alive and use the endrinmaster to smash up chunky enemies with his damage 6 hammer.

Edited October 21, 2018 by RaritanAnon

[Kokoshi]

After reading some posts on this thread, and other Kharadon-related topics in this forum and others, a question appeared in my mind : "What would it take to make KO a more decent, if not competitive, army with all but a single errata sheet ?"
 

I also want to clarify that I do not want to fall in a debate about KO competitivity. This question is about complains I have seen, not my own personal experience or opinion. 

As I'm quite a noob in AoS, and not a KO player (despite having widely explored their battletome and thread), I ask you this question. But I still wanted to give it a try :
 

• Give Arkanaut Company's Privateer Pistol -1 Rend. This might increase their cost to 140pt, but I'm not even sure it's necessary. The goal here is to give KO the niche of being a ranged army with Rend on every ranged weapon. This suits the idea of using firearms, and would give them some punch they kind of lack of.
• Give "Battleline if" options. The goal of this point is to allow for more variety in army building, and give other ways of doing it than picking 3x Companies for tax battlelines.
  •  Endrinriggers Batteline if Endrinmaster General
  • Skywarden Battleline if Aetheric Navigator General
  • Grundstok Thunderers Battleline if Arkanaut Admiral General
• Decrease Grundtsok Gunhauler cost to 120pt. This model has a damage output of (1.46 at -2 Rend + 0.67 at -1 Rend). For 100pt, 5 Thunderers with Rifles have a damage output of (3.67 at -1 Rend). It has more wounds, more mobility, cannot take objectives but can soak wounds for another ship… It's hard to compare both of them, but 120pt might make it more attractive without being the bread and butter of any KO army.

 

What is your thoughts about these three ideas ? Silly ? Overpowered ? Not efficient ? I think it might refresh a bit the way KO players build their army, without having to change a ton of things about allegiance abilities, artefacts, battalions...

Edited October 26, 2018 by Kokoshi

[Baron Wastelands]

3 hours ago, Kokoshi said:

After reading some posts on this thread, and other Kharadon-related topics in this forum and others, a question appeared in my mind : "What would it take to make KO a more decent, if not competitive, army with all but a single errata sheet ?"
 

I also want to clarify that I do not want to fall in a debate about KO competitivity. This question is about complains I have seen, not my own personal experience or opinion. 

As I'm quite a noob in AoS, and not a KO player (despite having widely explored their battletome and thread), I ask you this question. But I still wanted to give it a try :
 

• Give Arkanaut Company's Privateer Pistol -1 Rend. This might increase their cost to 140pt, but I'm not even sure it's necessary. The goal here is to give KO the niche of being a ranged army with Rend on every ranged weapon. This suits the idea of using firearms, and would give them some punch they kind of lack of.
• Give "Battleline if" options. The goal of this point is to allow for more variety in army building, and give other ways of doing it than picking 3x Companies for tax battlelines.
  •  Endrinriggers Batteline if Endrinmaster General
  • Skywarden Battleline if Aetheric Navigator General
  • Grundstok Thunderers Battleline if Arkanaut Admiral General
• Decrease Grundtsok Gunhauler cost to 120pt. This model has a damage output of (1.46 at -2 Rend + 0.67 at -1 Rend). For 100pt, 5 Thunderers with Rifles have a damage output of (3.67 at -1 Rend). It has more wounds, more mobility, cannot take objectives but can soak wounds for another ship… It's hard to compare both of them, but 120pt might make it more attractive without being the bread and butter of any KO army.

 

What is your thoughts about these three ideas ? Silly ? Overpowered ? Not efficient ? I think it might refresh a bit the way KO players build their army, without having to change a ton of things about allegiance abilities, artefacts, battalions...

Think these are very sensible ideas, would agree with the first and the third, certainly. With the second, I think having endrinriggers as battleline is a bit too good, but would maybe be ok with the other 2. Agree we need some battleline if ?

[Kokoshi]

12 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said:

Think these are very sensible ideas, would agree with the first and the third, certainly. With the second, I think having endrinriggers as battleline is a bit too good, but would maybe be ok with the other 2. Agree we need some battleline if ?

Riggers seems like a must have in many KO lists (backed up with a Khemist), but don't you think that having other options might pull players to reconsider them ?
Moreover, they are already chosen in so many lists. Removing the core tax of 360pt of Companies would allow for… 9 more Riggers… Which seems powerful, but not more awkward imo than Witch Aelves or Evocator spamming. ^^

[Baron Wastelands]

10 hours ago, Kokoshi said:

Riggers seems like a must have in many KO lists (backed up with a Khemist), but don't you think that having other options might pull players to reconsider them ?
Moreover, they are already chosen in so many lists. Removing the core tax of 360pt of Companies would allow for… 9 more Riggers… Which seems powerful, but not more awkward imo than Witch Aelves or Evocator spamming. ^^

My point was that if you have an option to take riggers as battleline, everyone will. Notwithstanding that there are already spammable battleline in other armies, I don’t think that’s the way to ‘fix’ KO. Would like to see more options, certainly, that encourage a variety of builds.