AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Baron Wastelands]

On 9/13/2020 at 2:58 PM, Ciotola said:

hi, I wanted to ask if a 1k point list like this is semi competitive and could give satisfaction on the battlefield.

I love thunderers and I would like to exploit them as much as possible, maximizing the movement through the ironclad and the volume of fire in the shooting phase, the idea is to be able to decimate the opponent as quickly as possible so as to freely contest the objectives in the remaining rounds after the extermination.

ty

Also love thunderers, and I have run several thunderer heavy lists. Couple of comments for your consideration: 

Firstly, I would say you have too many eggs in one basket. Admittedly a very destructive basket, but it won’t allow you to do 2 things at once, say cover 2 objectives, etc.

Secondly, if you’re going to use thunderers from the deck of a ship, most of their special weapons are not great, and even the ones that are ok in a garrison (basically just aether cannons, over the basic rifles) are so short range that they are going to get your gunship pulled into melee combat most of the time. 

Of course, if your plan is to drop both squads on objectives, this mitigates both of the above a bit, but 5 thunderers will struggle to hold an objective for long.

My suggestion to tweak your list  at 1k would be to run 2x5 thunderers (all with rifles, or maybe 1 cannon), an ironclad, and a gunhauler with the collapsible compartments, put 5 in each ship, your general with the ironclad, and then you can focus fire with everything, or split off the smaller craft and crew to run errands if you need to.

[zilberfrid]

While it isn't AoS, I've heard nothing but support when I asked about using Kharadron as Squats in Necromunda.

Others have stated they've been using then as Venerators or Orlocks (Orlocks can fly with a recent set), though I think a Dwarf Blood Bowl team with some Kharadron and Necromunda bits could easily be Goliath as well (and they have weighty women now that I think would work for conversion to Kharadron).

AoS doesn't have a Mordheim-like game where your dudes slowly improve, but this is one avenue.

Note that I don't own the rules (I think GW's rules books are not worth the price and am homebrewing a version of Frostgrave/Rangers of Shadowdeep for Necromunda), so I can't say how good they'd be.

Edited September 15, 2020 by zilberfrid

[Ciotola]

10 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said:

Also love thunderers, and I have run several thunderer heavy lists. Couple of comments for your consideration: 

Firstly, I would say you have too many eggs in one basket. Admittedly a very destructive basket, but it won’t allow you to do 2 things at once, say cover 2 objectives, etc.

Secondly, if you’re going to use thunderers from the deck of a ship, most of their special weapons are not great, and even the ones that are ok in a garrison (basically just aether cannons, over the basic rifles) are so short range that they are going to get your gunship pulled into melee combat most of the time. 

Of course, if your plan is to drop both squads on objectives, this mitigates both of the above a bit, but 5 thunderers will struggle to hold an objective for long.

My suggestion to tweak your list  at 1k would be to run 2x5 thunderers (all with rifles, or maybe 1 cannon), an ironclad, and a gunhauler with the collapsible compartments, put 5 in each ship, your general with the ironclad, and then you can focus fire with everything, or split off the smaller craft and crew to run errands if you need to.

thanks for the answer, comparing myself with some friends a doubt arose: the ironclad is not too much for 1k points to be a win-more and therefore an excessive investment of points? , I have therefore compiled a second list that does practically the same thing as this one, but with a few more pieces and therefore more control over objectives.

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Urbaz
LEADERS
Aether-Khemist (90)
- General
- Command Trait : Khemist Supreme
- Artefact : Spell in a Bottle
UNITS
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
- Main Gun : Sky Cannon
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
- Main Gun : Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks : Coalbeard's Collapsible Compartments
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (240)
- 1 x Aetheric Fumigators
- 2 x Decksweepers
- 2 x Aethercannons
- 1 x Grundstok Mortars
BEHEMOTHS
Arkanaut Frigate (220)
- Main Gun : Heavy Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks : Breath of Morgrim (Barak-Urbaz)
- Kharadron Overlords Battleline (Sky Port: Barak Zilfin)
BATTALIONS
Grundstok Escort Wing (120)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
TOTAL: 990/1000 WOUNDS: 59

 

the idea is: to embark 10 thunderers in the frigate and the hero in the gunhauler, go in high flight and position yourself 9 "from the enemies, while contesting the terrain and objectives. shoot shoot shoot. go into close combat with a gunhauler so as to limit the opponent's movement.

turn 2 to land everything, contest objectives, fly high with empty ships if required to position, shoot shoot shoot.

round 3, hope nothing has survived

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Ciotola

[Baron Wastelands]

Problem is that a frigate, while certainly more affordable at 1k, doesn’t have near the firepower of an ironclad. An ironclad with thunderers aboard can make a big dent. I also think battalions are a bit pricy for 1k.

I think frigates are essentially transports with a bit of firepower, which means they become expensive at 1k for what they do, though I would probably try to use one in the way you are suggesting if I wanted to build a 1k list around a frigate. But it will do much less than half the damage of an ironclad, and is less resilient too. Plus ... it’s an Ironclad

[Ciotola]

1 hour ago, Baron Wastelands said:

Problem is that a frigate, while certainly more affordable at 1k, doesn’t have near the firepower of an ironclad. An ironclad with thunderers aboard can make a big dent. I also think battalions are a bit pricy for 1k.

I think frigates are essentially transports with a bit of firepower, which means they become expensive at 1k for what they do, though I would probably try to use one in the way you are suggesting if I wanted to build a 1k list around a frigate. But it will do much less than half the damage of an ironclad, and is less resilient too. Plus ... it’s an Ironclad

the battalion is necessary to maintain the balance with the size of the troops and the high flight. you propose a 1k point competitive list

[Rahxephon]

12 hours ago, Ciotola said:

the battalion is ..

Dont know how it'd rank on a competitive scale, but you could try something like this

Barak Thryng - 980

Endrinmaster in dirigible w/ stubborn and grudgehammer

10 Arkanauts w/ 3 specials

5 Thunderers w/ fumigator

3 Endrinriggers w/ skyhook and volleycannon

Ironclad w/ sky cannon and the last word

Id probably be inclined to take 6 endrinriggers rather than the thunderers and take some aetherwings to round out the points. But if you want thunderers could include them.

Thryng gives you an effect like the escort wing battalion and works well at low points as theres not many units on the field. Its footnote goes well on the ironclad too.

Theres quite a few repairs that could be made on the ironclad and the balloons give some mobility to get objectives further away.

A switch around would be to go zilfin. The hero phase ship moves gives good objective capability as well. Then the artifact staff on the dirigibles weapon battery along with great tinkerer command trait can make the endrinmaster a pretty scary shooting unit.

[Ciotola]

17 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said:

Problem is that a frigate, while certainly more affordable at 1k, doesn’t have near the firepower of an ironclad. An ironclad with thunderers aboard can make a big dent. I also think battalions are a bit pricy for 1k.

I think frigates are essentially transports with a bit of firepower, which means they become expensive at 1k for what they do, though I would probably try to use one in the way you are suggesting if I wanted to build a 1k list around a frigate. But it will do much less than half the damage of an ironclad, and is less resilient too. Plus ... it’s an Ironclad

I don't agree with what you write.
you claim that a frigate is too expensive for what it does and claim it loses too much firepower compared to an ironclad.

the ironclad thing much more than 2 frigate and has as a difference the absence of roll on the damage, which in theorycraft the ironclad is certainly better, but this does not make the frigate unable to do damage considering then the many variables such as roll, vp , mw or save and extra save (without mentioning the blow of the ass or the bad luck)
my question is that the ironclad, considering its cost of 480 pt, is in the small game really better than: a frigate + 2 gunhauler, frigate + 10 thunderers + 20 pt, frigate + 6 rigger + 60 point left

Are 4 more wounds and losing damage roll worth 260 pts? considering that we are talking about 1k games.

on the battalion issue I usually agree with the idea "1000 points is not convenient", but it is not always true: in the specific comp I brought it is necessary for the balance of models, in the past you had kunin rukk that was also played at 500 pt, too strong

I could replace battalion, hero, endless spell and gunhauler with a flying endri + 6 riggers to support the gunhauler and frigate, among other things synergizing perfectly with the high flight being able to bring everything to t1 in range and then taking care of the 2 flying.

the problem with aos, and the comunity is that it is educated to play ONLY 2k. this community then does not know how to think about 1k games anymore and does not even try, it considers the question as something that is not in the norm of the aos economy, funny how the mental limit of these individuals is translated on the object they cannot understand.

[Boar]

1 hour ago, Ciotola said:

the problem with aos, and the comunity is that it is educated to play ONLY 2k. this community then does not know how to think about 1k games anymore and does not even try, it considers the question as something that is not in the norm of the aos economy, funny how the mental limit of these individuals is translated on the object they cannot understand.

I suppose there is langauge barrier at play here to some degree, but qouted part - especially part underscored - is really uncalled for IMO.

[Kramer]

39 minutes ago, Boar said:

I suppose there is langauge barrier at play here to some degree, but qouted part - especially part underscored - is really uncalled for IMO.

Especially since the only discussion seems to be if you prefer an ironclad or frigate at 1K. 
not if 1K itself is fun or not. 

[GrimDork]

@Ciotola & @Rahxephon I think your points are out.

Frigate is 250, Gunhaulers are 150, Endrinmaster with dirigible suit is 220 in GHB 2020. Also escort wing is 140.

Not sure if you're using warscroll builder but it's not been updated yet.

I too am looking at 1K point lists, though I will probably be giving meeting engagement format a try so won't quite translate the same to standard 1K list building.

[Scar]

10 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

@Ciotola & @Rahxephon I think your points are out.

Frigate is 250, Gunhaulers are 150, Endrinmaster with dirigible suit is 220 in GHB 2020. Also escort wing is 140.

Not sure if you're using warscroll builder but it's not been updated yet.

I too am looking at 1K point lists, though I will probably be giving meeting engagement format a try so won't quite translate the same to standard 1K list building.

I think you missed the FAQ with point changes
Warscroll builder is up to date.

[GrimDork]

33 minutes ago, Scar said:

I think you missed the FAQ with point changes
Warscroll builder is up to date.

Wow! They've changed again since GHB 2020?

That's good news. I've been struggling with 1K lists.

Edited September 16, 2020 by GrimDork

[zilberfrid]

35 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

Wow! They've changed again since GHB 2020?

That's good news. I've been struggling with 1K lists.

There has been a PDF after GHB2020 that changed points for lots of factions.

[Ciotola]

3 hours ago, Kramer said:

Especially since the only discussion seems to be if you prefer an ironclad or frigate at 1K. 
not if 1K itself is fun or not

it is obvious that the thing is coherent, if the majority of players tried to get out of their mental limit of "aos is only 2k" they would also be able to reason in a 1k, 1.5k and apocalypse perspective.

and they would know how to think about the question: isn't a 1k ironclad win-more? considering that I have to give up 480 pt to have it in the field and be able to exploit it, not only for the damage, but also in its other uses.

if aos was a game where whoever kills first wins then I would only play superheavy and the minimum of battleline and heroes, but it is not.

[Baron Wastelands]

6 hours ago, Ciotola said:

 

the problem with aos, and the comunity is that it is educated to play ONLY 2k. this community then does not know how to think about 1k games anymore and does not even try, it considers the question as something that is not in the norm of the aos economy, funny how the mental limit of these individuals is translated on the object they cannot understand.

I play lots of games at 1000 Pts, so not quite sure where this comes from. And I don’t entirely follow your train of thought earlier in your post, I must admit - not sure I had understood your question in that case.  I was specifically talking about the merits of ironclad vs frigate in a 1k list. But I read this last comment as you don’t want my input, so fair enough, I’ll refrain from further comment on your list. Hope you enjoy whatever list you settle on.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Baron Wastelands

[Rahxephon]

54 minutes ago, Ciotola said:

it is obvious...

As far as theory crafting damage output goes when everything is in range, for the options of ironclad, 2 frigates, frigate & 2 gunhaulers, frigate & 10 thunderers or frigate & 6 riggers the ironclad still performs best

Rough averages against standard 4+ save 2w target (ships doing shrapnel shots)

Ironclad ~10 damage

Frigate & 2 gunhaulers ~7.25 damage

Frigate & 10 rifle thunderers ~ 7.75 damage

Frigate & 4+6sp thunderers ~ 8.5 damage

Frigate & 4+6sp thunderers not garrisoned ~ 9.5 damage

Frigate & 6 gun riggers ~ 7.75 damage

Gunhaulers with drill cannons would slightly improve their lot but not much.

Damage averages are only a small part though. All the numbers aren't that substantially different and many rely on one or two rolls on big damage weapons so will swing all over the place as they tend to do.

For me i just look at a frigate as a transport, its damage output is quite poor and so is its durability. 

One key point on the iron clad is it has the torpedoes at 24" so it can put out some decent firepower at that range. Same with endrinriggers with special weapons. A lot of things can quite reliably get in close combat at 18", but not nearly as many can at 24". Many things also have  rend so the save difference between the ironclad and frigate becomes quite significant with gold rerolls.

I find the frigates damage output too low to keep at far range so you have to close in to let the guys onboard engage as well which usually results in it getting charged the following turn. And they're a lot more likely to die in one turn than an ironclad.

I havent liked thunderers in frigates from when Ive tried them. Either compartments gunhauler, ironclad or foot.

[Rahxephon]

With regards to frigate costings I think its higher than it should be for what it is, but I wouldn't want it to drop lower. Fielding a bunch of cheap units that are kind of useless isnt appealing to me for KO, I dont see them as lending themselve to a horde playstyle.

Id rather the frigate went to 3+ save and all the ships got ship orders back.

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Ciotola said:

it is obvious that the thing is coherent, if the majority of players tried to get out of their mental limit of "aos is only 2k" they would also be able to reason in a 1k, 1.5k and apocalypse perspective.

and they would know how to think about the question: isn't a 1k ironclad win-more? considering that I have to give up 480 pt to have it in the field and be able to exploit it, not only for the damage, but also in its other uses.

if aos was a game where whoever kills first wins then I would only play superheavy and the minimum of battleline and heroes, but it is not.

In all honesty.  It seems you are jumping to massive conclusions just because people have a different perspective on it. People are reasoning with you, but your so convinced that you're right that you shoot down other opinions by judging the posters 'unable to think' and 'reached their mental limit'.

And just from someone who does play a lot of 1k, mostly 1,5k and occasionally 2k games. With the new scenarios, which you didn't take into account in you reasoning posted, the scores of objectives increase in a lot scenarios per turn or increasing by holding multiples. If I bring 10 thunderers in a Ironclad (720), 2x10 Arkanauts (180) and a navigator (100) with the flare pistol, I will likely win. My output is better, my movement is better and I hold two objectives or screen my output. For most armies I found I needed to change the scenarios at 1K to make it a fun game, fly high fully negates that. 
Turn one I either screen my ironclad, or claim two objectives. Turn 2 I take out a full unit with my boat, redeploy for another objective. Now i'm holding 3 objective that increase in value, while my opponent struggles to take one from me over the next turns. Either he needs to take out the ironclad which is extremely hard anyway. Or he needs to move across a too big table for most armies at 1k all the while my ironclad keeps shooting. 

Now personally, I agree with you. I'd rather have the flexibilty of 6 endrinriggers & frigate with thunderers rather than one deathstar like ironclad with thunderers in 1k games. But I can see the other argument. 

But to be honest I don't have a stake in this discussion. So i'll drop out of it. I'll of course read the replies, but i'll save any other thoughts on the discussion and its tone. 

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Kramer

[GrimDork]

So, I mentioned planning a 1K list for meeting engagement. I’m getting into AoS and my plan is to have a few smaller forces.

I have the Aether War set and will be getting a start collecting box soon so my KO list is based around that. Thanks on the heads up on the latest point costs!
 

Barak Zilphin

Spearhead;

3 x Endrinriggers, volley gun & drill launcher
1 x Gunhauler with MW on the charge endrinwork (Can’t remember name)

Main Body;

6 x Endrinriggers, skyhook.
1 x Endrinmaster with dirigible suit and Zilphin artefact

1 x Gunhauler with compartments 

5 x Thunderers 
 

Rearguard;

3 x Endrinriggers, volley gun & drill launcher

Total 970

My thinking is spearhead rush onto objectives with zilphin auto 6 run or chip damage with longer range weapons.

Then the main body can be a mini deathstar flying high and hitching to take on any threats.

Lastly the rearguard to rush onto objectives late game.

One drawback I can see is it doesn’t really making the most of Aether gold as the units are too small, but I think that’s just one of the quirks of meeting engagement.

Any thoughts? 
Also, any else have much experience playing KO in meeting engagement?

Any fun lists you’ve come up with?

[pixieproxy]

Yo, I'm getting a fantastic deal on the following:

1. Aether Wars Kharadron half.
2. 3x Arkanaut Company
3. Start Collecting Kharadron
4. Thundriks Profiteers Box
5. Latest Kharadron Battletome
6. Gotrek

What would be a good expansion from these, or a solid 1000 point list from this? Is Thundrik and his bois any good in AoS?

[zilberfrid]

49 minutes ago, pixieproxy said:

Yo, I'm getting a fantastic deal on the following:

1. Aether Wars Kharadron half.
2. 3x Arkanaut Company
3. Start Collecting Kharadron
4. Thundriks Profiteers Box
5. Latest Kharadron Battletome
6. Gotrek

What would be a good expansion from these, or a solid 1000 point list from this? Is Thundrik and his bois any good in AoS?

Thundrik is a Khemist, for the price of less than a Khemist, and a few alternate poses models. Would highly recommend.

As a team, it's not perfect, for 50 points over a regular Khemist you get a mismatched bunch, but if you have 50 points to spare, not the worst.

With this, you have the following:

Khemist (Thundrik) 90

Endrinmaster on foot 100

Endrinmaster under balloon 190

3x Skywardens/Endrinriggers 300

3x Arkanauts 270

2x Gunhauler 260

Thunderers 120

And 4 spare models

Then you have

Gotrek 520 points

Total of 1850 points. I'm not sure Gotrek will do all that well, but I may be wrong.

Now you don't have ships, which is a bit of a shame, so that's where I'd expand.

Getting an Ironclad or Frigate also gives you a Navigator, if you're a bit creative: just make him removable from his seat up top, if he doesn't have a lower body: take one of the spare models.

I'm not the best at telling you which ships are best, but you do have a solid buch of models!

Full flight 1000 pts list:

Loondrinmaster 190

2x Gunhauler (one with cargobox) 260

3*3 Endrinriggers 300

Thundrik's Profiteers in cargobox: 150

100 points to spare. If one of the Endrinriggers is a Skywardens: enough for the batallion.

No idea if it's any good, you probably want some boots on the ground.

 

[Docthe3rd]

Hey everyone,

So I'm in the process of updating my meeting engagement KO list (stolen shamelessly and completely from Warhammer Live) which - after points updates -now has a little more room to work  (it's now down to 910). I unfortunately didn't get to play it all that much before the Lockdown, and now that we're starting to get un-locked down where I am, I want to bust it open again. It worked reasonably well when I played it before (2-1, but all could have easily gone either way, y'know?), so I'm not sure what needs to get reworked as it didn't get enough reps in. 

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

KOMeetingEngagementList.pdf

[Baron Wastelands]

On 9/18/2020 at 3:55 PM, Docthe3rd said:

Hey everyone,

So I'm in the process of updating my meeting engagement KO list (stolen shamelessly and completely from Warhammer Live) which - after points updates -now has a little more room to work  (it's now down to 910). I unfortunately didn't get to play it all that much before the Lockdown, and now that we're starting to get un-locked down where I am, I want to bust it open again. It worked reasonably well when I played it before (2-1, but all could have easily gone either way, y'know?), so I'm not sure what needs to get reworked as it didn't get enough reps in.

Why the aether khemist? He will get left behind very quickly by all those balloons. And don’t you still need a hero in your main body? 

I would be tempted to drop the khemist, and add another gunhauler since you have the points. Something like:

spearhead: gunhauler, 3 endrinriggers

main body: gunhauler, 6 skywardens, dirigible endrinmaster

Rearguard: 6 skywardens

 

gives you good mobility everywhere, and plenty of hitchers.

[Arzalyn]

On 9/16/2020 at 8:06 PM, Kramer said:

Now personally, I agree with you. I'd rather have the flexibilty of 6 endrinriggers & frigate with thunderers rather than one deathstar like ironclad with thunderers in 1k games. But I can see the other argument. 

As someone who play most 1.5k games too and is planning to get his first big ship, I would like to ask what is your experience with the ironclad at that point range? While I totally understand that it has the superior damage output and survirvability, I'm having a hardtime fitting him in a 1.5k list while still having points for other units/battalions. Is the damage output better than the extra units/artifact at this range?

[zilberfrid]

3 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

As someone who play most 1.5k games too and is planning to get his first big ship, I would like to ask what is your experience with the ironclad at that point range? While I totally understand that it has the superior damage output and survirvability, I'm having a hardtime fitting him in a 1.5k list while still having points for other units/battalions. Is the damage output better than the extra units/artifact at this range?

I think the Ironclad is more imposing, but the frigate is prettier.